Putin Invades Ukraine II

[dualstow]

Feigning Retreat, Ukrainian Troops Lured Attacking Russians Into A Devastating HIMARS Ambush
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... rs-ambush/

[yankees60]

Feigning Retreat, Ukrainian Troops Lured Attacking Russians Into A Devastating HIMARS Ambush
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... rs-ambush/

Thanks for this. Had not known previously about it.

On the whole war .... another example of "don't take him literally"? If so, how do you take him on this matter?

https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/ ... rcna188167

Trump's promise to end the Ukraine war in a day meets harsh realities

President-elect Trump’s team has yet to present a blueprint for how to end the war. His chosen envoy to Ukraine says the new administration’s goal is a peace deal within 100 days.

[dualstow]

On the whole war .... another example of "don't take him literally"? If so, how do you take him on this matter?
https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/ ... rcna188167
Trump's promise to end the Ukraine war in a day meets harsh realities

I suppose I neither take nor not take him on his word. I just wait to see how it plays out because frankly I don't have any skin in the game.
But so far, it seems like Trump is doing what he says he's going to do. There's no way he's going to accomplish everything he boasts about, but he's a breath of fresh air, in my opinion, after Biden.

With Biden, he's been bumbling about for so long that most of the chatter has been wondering who's really at the helm.
Wonder no longer.

[flyingpylon]

On the whole war .... another example of "don't take him literally"? If so, how do you take him on this matter?

https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/ ... rcna188167

Trump's promise to end the Ukraine war in a day meets harsh realities

President-elect Trump’s team has yet to present a blueprint for how to end the war. His chosen envoy to Ukraine says the new administration’s goal is a peace deal within 100 days.

Yeah, it makes no sense to point to the “one day” line and claim that Trump lied. Nobody (or almost nobody) seriously thought that was achievable. It’s hyperbole.

The more important point is that Trump is committed to ending it as soon as possible which is a 180 degree change from the previous administration.

[ppnewbie]

Caveat In My Strongly Held Humble Opinion.

However and whenever it happens, it will be the end to the US and Europe incredible hubris and stupidity. The Ukranians are cannon fodder for NATO. They really dont care if every Ukrainian is murdered. This is an epic tragedy that I believe could have been avoided.

It’s going to be interested to see if the Trump will give back the hundreds of Billions of dollars that the Biden administration took from Russia. That is an epic disaster as well. They have to return it.

[dualstow]

The Russian conscripts are cannon fodder, for sure. so are many Ukraine conscripts.
I’ve asked this before: aren’t the Ukrainians in this because they want to be? Not because the Americans or British or Germans asked them to be. I’m not speaking of the hapless low level conscripts but of Ukrainian leadership.

[yankees60]

The Russian conscripts are cannon fodder, for sure. so are many Ukraine conscripts.
I’ve asked this before: aren’t the Ukrainians in this because they want to be? Not because the Americans or British or Germans asked them to be. I’m not speaking of the hapless low level conscripts but of Ukrainian leadership.

I believe all you stated is the truth.

[ppnewbie]

The Russian conscripts are cannon fodder, for sure. so are many Ukraine conscripts.
I’ve asked this before: aren’t the Ukrainians in this because they want to be? Not because the Americans or British or Germans asked them to be. I’m not speaking of the hapless low level conscripts but of Ukrainian leadership.

Potential narrative. Zelensky was hand picked after the last Russia friendly elected government was overthrown through the standard playbook “color” revolution. Also there was a clear red line. Ukraine cannot join nato.

[yankees60]

The Russian conscripts are cannon fodder, for sure. so are many Ukraine conscripts.
I’ve asked this before: aren’t the Ukrainians in this because they want to be? Not because the Americans or British or Germans asked them to be. I’m not speaking of the hapless low level conscripts but of Ukrainian leadership.

Potential narrative. Zelensky was hand picked after the last Russia friendly elected government was overthrown through the standard playbook “color” revolution. Also there was a clear red line. Ukraine cannot join nato.

Listen to the latest Lex interview with Zelensky. He is no one's puppet!

[ppnewbie]

Will listen to it in the next few days.

[yankees60]

Will listen to it in the next few days.

It was one I listened to twice.

[ppnewbie]

Good podcast. Personally, I think Zelensky is misguided if he thinks he’s going to enter NATO. Putin will not allow it.

[yankees60]

Good podcast. Personally, I think Zelensky is misguided if he thinks he’s going to enter NATO. Putin will not allow it.

What formal say does Putin have over it?

[dualstow]

He doesn’t have any formal say but he has a lot of “do.”

[seajay]

Caveat In My Strongly Held Humble Opinion.

However and whenever it happens, it will be the end to the US and Europe incredible hubris and stupidity. The Ukranians are cannon fodder for NATO. They really dont care if every Ukrainian is murdered. This is an epic tragedy that I believe could have been avoided.

It’s going to be interested to see if the Trump will give back the hundreds of Billions of dollars that the Biden administration took from Russia. That is an epic disaster as well. They have to return it.

No. Should be directed towards Ukraine as part compensation of Russia having invaded it.

[ppnewbie]

It’s funny how we Americans think we are in charge at all times.

- I am the law.
- I take your money.
- I say who gets your money
- I will put missiles at your border if I want to.

How’s that working out for Ukraine? Or do we even care how it’s working out? What got me about the interview is how naively Zelensky said we should join NATO. Either he is a fool or was bluffing.

[ppnewbie]

Sorry I can’t help but be sarcastic here.

We (the American public) are going to feel great about saving Ukraine when the war ends. And the US and possibly Russia are going to go in and pillage Ukraine’s natural resources as the price for peace and Ukraine will not be in NATO and they are going to lose the regions that Putin took.

We Stand with Ukraine!

[stuper1]

Well said, ppnewbie. We pushed Ukraine into this war so they could be our blunt proxy weapon to hopefully degrade Russia, rather than encouraging a diplomatic dialogue to address Russia's legitimate security concerns at their western border. The US would certainly have security concerns if a foreign military alliance (say a Chinese version of NATO) were trying to curry favor with Latin American countries and eventually expand itself up to the Rio Grande. People like to say that NATO is only a defensive alliance. Try telling that to the literally millions of civilians, yes civilians, who have died under NATO attacks in places like Serbia, Libya, Iraq, etc. And note that none of those countries I just named shares a border with the USA. We claim security interests in these far off places, but we deny that Russia has security interests right at its own border. This is quite hypocritical. Psychopaths like Anthony Blinken have a lot of blood on their hands, as do unwise (or possibly corrupt or both) Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky and many others who didn't pursue peace and neutrality when they had many chances, but I'm sure that the children of the Ukrainian leaders aren't the ones who have been turned into hamburger meat on the battlefield; it's always the poor working-class people who suffer the most during wartime. Turn on your sarcasm meter now: I mean who could have ever seen that a smaller country up against a much larger country would have suffered such losses as Ukraine has? It has shades of Vietnam where we just kept bombing and bombing, killing ever more civilian Asians, because the evidence was hid from the public of the true story of the conflict. In Ukraine, it's mostly military losses, but also many of the losses are involuntary conscripts, so in my view they might as well be civilians. However you count it, it's a lot of mothers who won't be able to kiss their sons on the cheek for the next 50 Christmases. And it was all easily predictable, as was the fact, which is coming out more and more, that much of the arms would end up in the hands of terrorists and criminals outside of Ukraine, as they get sold off by corrupt people up and down the chain of command to line their own pockets with cash (happens in every war on every side, but magnified hugely in a place like Ukraine under current circumstances, again easily predictable based on well-known military history over the last few hundred years). Think about that in the next decade or two when you hear about airliners being shot down by terrorists using US-made manpad missiles or similar events.

[yankees60]

He doesn’t have any formal say but he has a lot of “do.”

Now we've already heard our new Defense Secretary this morning inform that it is not going to happen.

[yankees60]

It’s funny how we Americans think we are in charge at all times.

- I am the law.
- I take your money.
- I say who gets your money
- I will put missiles at your border if I want to.

How’s that working out for Ukraine? Or do we even care how it’s working out? What got me about the interview is how naively Zelensky said we should join NATO. Either he is a fool or was bluffing.

That was the genesis of this famous, classic book written way back in 1958. It's a classic case of: "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"!

The book, which I'm almost certain that I read decades ago:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393356728/?r ... l_huc_item
The Ugly American Paperback
by Eugene Burdick (Author), William J. Lederer (Author)

The multi-million-copy bestseller that blends truth and fiction in a “devastating indictment of American policy” (New York Times Book Review).

A piercing exposé of American incompetence and corruption in Southeast Asia, The Ugly American captivated the nation when it was first published in 1958. The book introduces readers to an unlikely hero in the titular “ugly American”―and to the ignorant politicians and arrogant ambassadors who ignore his empathetic and commonsense advice. In linked stories and vignettes set in the fictional nation of Sarkhan, William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick draw an incisive portrait of American foreign policy gone dangerously wrong―and how it might be fixed.

Eerily relevant sixty years after its initial publication, The Ugly American reminds us that “today, as the battle for hearts and minds has shifted to the Middle East, we still can’t speak Sarkhanese” (New York Times).

[yankees60]

Sorry I can’t help but be sarcastic here.

We (the American public) are going to feel great about saving Ukraine when the war ends. And the US and possibly Russia are going to go in and pillage Ukraine’s natural resources as the price for peace and Ukraine will not be in NATO and they are going to lose the regions that Putin took.

We Stand with Ukraine!

That IS a dim view for Ukraine!

[yankees60]

Well said, ppnewbie. We pushed Ukraine into this war so they could be our blunt proxy weapon to hopefully degrade Russia, rather than encouraging a diplomatic dialogue to address Russia's legitimate security concerns at their western border. The US would certainly have security concerns if a foreign military alliance (say a Chinese version of NATO) were trying to curry favor with Latin American countries and eventually expand itself up to the Rio Grande. People like to say that NATO is only a defensive alliance. Try telling that to the literally millions of civilians, yes civilians, who have died under NATO attacks in places like Serbia, Libya, Iraq, etc. And note that none of those countries I just named shares a border with the USA. We claim security interests in these far off places, but we deny that Russia has security interests right at its own border. This is quite hypocritical. Psychopaths like Anthony Blinken have a lot of blood on their hands, as do unwise (or possibly corrupt or both) Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky and many others who didn't pursue peace and neutrality when they had many chances, but I'm sure that the children of the Ukrainian leaders aren't the ones who have been turned into hamburger meat on the battlefield; it's always the poor working-class people who suffer the most during wartime. Turn on your sarcasm meter now: I mean who could have ever seen that a smaller country up against a much larger country would have suffered such losses as Ukraine has? It has shades of Vietnam where we just kept bombing and bombing, killing ever more civilian Asians, because the evidence was hid from the public of the true story of the conflict. In Ukraine, it's mostly military losses, but also many of the losses are involuntary conscripts, so in my view they might as well be civilians. However you count it, it's a lot of mothers who won't be able to kiss their sons on the cheek for the next 50 Christmases. And it was all easily predictable, as was the fact, which is coming out more and more, that much of the arms would end up in the hands of terrorists and criminals outside of Ukraine, as they get sold off by corrupt people up and down the chain of command to line their own pockets with cash (happens in every war on every side, but magnified hugely in a place like Ukraine under current circumstances, again easily predictable based on well-known military history over the last few hundred years). Think about that in the next decade or two when you hear about airliners being shot down by terrorists using US-made manpad missiles or similar events.

"And it was all easily predictable, as was the fact, which is coming out more and more, that much of the arms would end up in the hands of terrorists and criminals outside of Ukraine, as they get sold off by corrupt people up and down the chain of command to line their own pockets with cash"

Where is your evidence for that? In the interview with Lex .... Zelensky made the strong and convincing case that there would be no way the army would allow this to happen. If you and I are in the Army fighting against the Russians we are going to allow needed arms for us to be sold so that we are fighting from an inferior position?

If you do watch that interview you may come away convinced as I was that Zelensky is a true hero / leader.

[stuper1]

Zelensky certainly talks a good game. I believe he was an actor before becoming a politician. Actors have been known to be good at a certain activity known as acting, which basically is paid dissimulation. No wonder they make good politicians.

I believe Fridman filmed a follow-up video where he basically criticized Zelensky for his inflexibility, or something like that. I didn't watch it, but I read a few mentions of it, probably on X.

The accounts of corruption coming out of Ukraine are legion, but who's to say which sources are reliable and which are propaganda for either side.

My gut feeling is that Zelensky will be lucky not to end up like Ngo Dinh Diem or Mussolini. Time will tell. I wish the people of Ukraine well. I believe they have been extremely poorly served by unwise leaders for the past 11+ years.

[dualstow]

Zelensky … I believe he was an actor before becoming a politician.

More significantly, he’s famous for playing the role of a normal guy who became president. That series (“Man of the People”) turned out to be the best campaign ad ever.

[stuper1]

Hegseth says that Ukraine won't join NATO.

Too bad Blinken couldn't have said the same thing 4 years ago. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men would still be alive.

Oh, but we degraded Russia's fighting ability. Best money we ever spent, says the warmonger senator Lindsey Graham, as he acknowledged that it was a proxy war all along, not the noble fighting for democracy that was sold to the US people. I wonder how many millions of dollars in kickbacks he has received from the defense industry over the years? By the way, he doesn't have any children of military age to go fight (actually he doesn't have any children period, so what does he care about the future of this planet?).

Actually, what we accomplished, and which few if any saw coming, certainly not me, was driving Russia into the hands of a close alliance with China. The global East and South has been strengthened tremendously, and the US empire seems to be waning in power and influence. The Middle East will be the straw that breaks the camel's back is my prediction.