I have started reading "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World." Great so far. It got me thinking, though. If HB didn't endorse putting all sorts of time & energy into things that yielded fruitless or negative results (protesting vigorously for a cause, etc), why did HB run for president?
Did he actually think he'd win?
Was winning part of his life goals/dreams...was it who he felt that he wanted to be?
Was his goal moreso to send a message? If so, did he think a fruitless presidential campaign was worth it?
I just wonder how he thought running for president as a hopeless 3rd party ticket would fulfill him more than simply continuing with his "public outreach."
HB Running For President
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HB Running For President
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: HB Running For President
In Browne's terminology, he probably would have said he did it for "the consumption value" (as opposed to doing it for "the production value", which is why someone would do it who realistically expected to win).moda0306 wrote: I have started reading "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World." Great so far. It got me thinking, though. If HB didn't endorse putting all sorts of time & energy into things that yielded fruitless or negative results (protesting vigorously for a cause, etc), why did HB run for president?
Did he actually think he'd win?
Was winning part of his life goals/dreams...was it who he felt that he wanted to be?
Was his goal moreso to send a message? If so, did he think a fruitless presidential campaign was worth it?
I just wonder how he thought running for president as a hopeless 3rd party ticket would fulfill him more than simply continuing with his "public outreach."
He probably just did it because he felt like it was the best use of his time and resources, not because he thought he would win.
He also got married later on, even though he was dark on marriage in "How I Found Freedom..."
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: HB Running For President
I heard him answer this somewhere. IIRC he briefly addressed it in "Why Government Doesn't Work," which was written to coincide with his campaign, and in interviews on Youtube. My recollection is that he said something to the effect of: Previously one could simply ignore government and live freely, but we've crossed a turning point where that is no longer possible, and I feel it's necessary to work within the system to stem the growth of government.
As MediumTex said, he did revise a few of the specific positions he put down in "How I Found..." I don't think that detracts from the book, since reconsidering ones' positions is a major theme therein.
As MediumTex said, he did revise a few of the specific positions he put down in "How I Found..." I don't think that detracts from the book, since reconsidering ones' positions is a major theme therein.
Re: HB Running For President
Yeah, one thing I noticed was his altruism test where he claimed that people do good for others, truly, in an effort to make themselves feel better. Maybe he didn't change this, but I've heard a nifty logical test to prove otherwise.
If you were to go to a good father of a lower class family that HB is claiming that all he does for his family is, in essence, simply to make himself feel better, and you tell him that he could have one of two options:
- Economic security for his family if he dies, but he has no knowledge of it (you wipe his memory after), thus meaning he will go on with no peace of mind, thinking his family will be utterly screwed if he were to die.
- Economic insecurity for his family if he dies, but you can later make him somehow believe that they will be fine (once again, after wiping his memory), but, as I said, really, his family will be out on the streets.
The second scenario would leave him with plenty of that peace of mind that one could claim the father is really seeking by properly insuring himself, but we all know a good father would take the lack of peace of mind... all the stress and fear as he lived day by day... if he knew, even for that second before his memory was wiped, that his family would really be ok. So that was the proof that altruism actually DOES have an element of caring for others, and isn't simply a way to make yourself feel better.
If you were to go to a good father of a lower class family that HB is claiming that all he does for his family is, in essence, simply to make himself feel better, and you tell him that he could have one of two options:
- Economic security for his family if he dies, but he has no knowledge of it (you wipe his memory after), thus meaning he will go on with no peace of mind, thinking his family will be utterly screwed if he were to die.
- Economic insecurity for his family if he dies, but you can later make him somehow believe that they will be fine (once again, after wiping his memory), but, as I said, really, his family will be out on the streets.
The second scenario would leave him with plenty of that peace of mind that one could claim the father is really seeking by properly insuring himself, but we all know a good father would take the lack of peace of mind... all the stress and fear as he lived day by day... if he knew, even for that second before his memory was wiped, that his family would really be ok. So that was the proof that altruism actually DOES have an element of caring for others, and isn't simply a way to make yourself feel better.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: HB Running For President
My take on that section is that altruists aren't trying to "make themselves feel better" but rather are trying to "change the world to match their own agenda." In your scenario the father picks the first option because that one advances his agenda of providing for his own family.
If we accept that everyone is acting on their own self-chosen agendas then it's basically impossible to make value judgement about which agendas are more noble than others. The working class breadwinner sounds like a hero, but what if his family is all jerks and there's another family of geniuses starving? What if his profession is drug dealer? Or cigarette factory worker? What if he's a butcher; how does his altruistic quest to provide for his family mesh with the Dalai Lama's altruistic quest to eliminate animal suffering?
If we accept that everyone is acting on their own self-chosen agendas then it's basically impossible to make value judgement about which agendas are more noble than others. The working class breadwinner sounds like a hero, but what if his family is all jerks and there's another family of geniuses starving? What if his profession is drug dealer? Or cigarette factory worker? What if he's a butcher; how does his altruistic quest to provide for his family mesh with the Dalai Lama's altruistic quest to eliminate animal suffering?
Re: HB Running For President
KevinW,
Some of your points are really good.
However, I JUST got done with a chapter where he came to the conclusion almost exactly as I described it... that people who do good things for other people do it to make them feel better... not to advance an agenda per se, and even if it were that way, the agenda woud serve to make that person happier. Maybe there's more I need to read.
HB has great points about doing things for others vs doing things for yourself. I think he just takes it a bit too far in assuming that everything is at its core about making the individual doing the charity, not the recipient of the charity, feel better. The term "agenda" even implies something else that is the true goal. If that goal is to make your family safe, even if you'll spend the rest of your life tearing yourself apart inside because you couldn't properly protect them, then it's quite obvious not about the father's feelings or happiness, but his family's safety (I used a lower class family because I was trying to depict a situation where life insurance isn't an option... pre-existing health problems by the father of any family would probably have been a much better example).
Some of your points are really good.
However, I JUST got done with a chapter where he came to the conclusion almost exactly as I described it... that people who do good things for other people do it to make them feel better... not to advance an agenda per se, and even if it were that way, the agenda woud serve to make that person happier. Maybe there's more I need to read.
HB has great points about doing things for others vs doing things for yourself. I think he just takes it a bit too far in assuming that everything is at its core about making the individual doing the charity, not the recipient of the charity, feel better. The term "agenda" even implies something else that is the true goal. If that goal is to make your family safe, even if you'll spend the rest of your life tearing yourself apart inside because you couldn't properly protect them, then it's quite obvious not about the father's feelings or happiness, but his family's safety (I used a lower class family because I was trying to depict a situation where life insurance isn't an option... pre-existing health problems by the father of any family would probably have been a much better example).
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: HB Running For President
Hi moda, if you've got the 25th Anniversary Edition (published in 2004), Browne includes an afterword that addresses this (very insightful) point about running for President.
Hope that's not a spoiler. :)
Hope that's not a spoiler. :)
Re: HB Running For President
moda, you're probably right, the "agenda" formulation might be my own language or might've come from one of the other philosophical texts I was reading concurrently. It's a bit of a blur.
Anyway, I think the takeaway is that it's human nature for everyone to pursue their own goals, and to think the goals they pursue and agree with are somehow more worthy than the goals other people pursue. That gets couched in value-judgement-laden labels like altruistic vs. greedy. But in a free society we don't need to conform to other peoples' values or avoid goals that other people describe negatively. If you accept that other people are going to do what they do, and let them do it instead of fighting it, your life gets a lot simpler. Interestingly that theme shows up in Eastern philosophy such as Taoism and Zen.
Anyway, I think the takeaway is that it's human nature for everyone to pursue their own goals, and to think the goals they pursue and agree with are somehow more worthy than the goals other people pursue. That gets couched in value-judgement-laden labels like altruistic vs. greedy. But in a free society we don't need to conform to other peoples' values or avoid goals that other people describe negatively. If you accept that other people are going to do what they do, and let them do it instead of fighting it, your life gets a lot simpler. Interestingly that theme shows up in Eastern philosophy such as Taoism and Zen.
-
jackely
Re: HB Running For President
I would probably have never known who Harry Browne was if he hadn't run for president so if nothing else it bore the fruit of name recognition. I'm not saying this was his primary motivation but I suspect it helped him sell more books.
Re: HB Running For President
He used the term "Negro" in the original book... didn't change it for the 2004 edition.
Wow. I read it, and at first I forgot the book had been written so long ago and was utterly amazed (not really offended, just surprised) to see the term used.
Wow. I read it, and at first I forgot the book had been written so long ago and was utterly amazed (not really offended, just surprised) to see the term used.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: HB Running For President
As far as I know, the United Negro College Fund still calls itself that and feels that it is appropriate.moda0306 wrote: He used the term "Negro" in the original book... didn't change it for the 2004 edition.
Wow. I read it, and at first I forgot the book had been written so long ago and was utterly amazed (not really offended, just surprised) to see the term used.
As a kid, I saw many of the edgy UNCF commercials on TV and they left an impression on me.
Here is one from 1981 that always stuck in my mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARmw4D4pzIw
I don't think that you would see a commercial like that on TV today. This part of American life has changed a LOT in the last 30 years.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: HB Running For President
I am really loving this book (How I found Freedom). I may not agree with some of his conclusions on government and some other things in general, but you don't have to!
These are tools to live as free as possible, not a guide book on what our political opinions should be. It's much more functional than ideologically persuasive, and I mean that I the best way.
This isn't to say there isn't some great general philosophy to pull out of this book. I feel like I am swimming in the mind of the best kind of libertarian... One whose philosophy starts with the individual and doesn't let up, rarely making excuses or strenuously campaigning for a strong police or military and even court system to "defend our freedoms."
A lot of libertarians argue (like any political argument would tend to) in the context of what our governments should and shouldn't do, not what individuals should and shouldn't do to be free and happy. Reading this book gives me a perspective on libertarianism that you don't usually see when we are arguing about gold standards, private property, and social safety nets.
These are tools to live as free as possible, not a guide book on what our political opinions should be. It's much more functional than ideologically persuasive, and I mean that I the best way.
This isn't to say there isn't some great general philosophy to pull out of this book. I feel like I am swimming in the mind of the best kind of libertarian... One whose philosophy starts with the individual and doesn't let up, rarely making excuses or strenuously campaigning for a strong police or military and even court system to "defend our freedoms."
A lot of libertarians argue (like any political argument would tend to) in the context of what our governments should and shouldn't do, not what individuals should and shouldn't do to be free and happy. Reading this book gives me a perspective on libertarianism that you don't usually see when we are arguing about gold standards, private property, and social safety nets.
Last edited by moda0306 on Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine