Public School Issue

[jalanlong]

Here is an interesting story I would love your opinions on.

My son just started Middle School a few weeks back. Apparently his teachers do not get to the first class of the day until right on time. So when he comes to school in the AM he has to sit in the hallway outside of the classroom and everyone has to sit a certain length apart. On the second week of school he was sitting in the hallway just daydreaming waiting for his teacher to come and a random teacher he did not know came up to him and asked him where is his book? My son stated what book and the teacher said he was supposed to have a book and be reading whenever he was sitting there or had any downtime. My son said he didnt have a book and the teacher said what do you mean you dont have a book, everyone has a book. My son replied he doesnt have a book there and isnt really into reading. Apparently it escalated from there and he wound up in the principal's office. The principal solved it by making sure his Reading teacher gave him a book.

Nobody told me about this right away. I found out about it days later. So I called the principal and asked what happened. I was told that "the district is hammering home that everyone needs to be reading by themselves when they have down time in class" and that the students were told this. I asked even before school starts and he said yes. I said he isn't creating a disturbance, can he not just sit there and stare off like he was doing? Or can he draw instead? I was told no, he has to have a book and be reading.

Of course for someone like my son who is on the autism spectrum, I have to first explain why you have to have a book vs doing anything else that doesn't cause an issue and not be sarcastic about it so he doesn't carry that attitude to school. Then I have to explain why after years of telling him to sit and be quiet and not cause a disturbance, he sits and doesn't cause a disturbance and a random teacher comes up and starts something out of nothing and he winds up in the principal's office anyway. This just reiterates to him that nothing he can do is good enough for school, they will always find something about which to discipline you.

But seriously, am I wrong to be upset about this "reading policy"? How does forcing a kid to read (outside of classwork obviously) instill a love of reading? Isn't this more social engineering than education? They have decided that kids dont read enough so instead of a creative solution on getting them to read they just create a rule that says everyone must be reading during downtime. No drawing. No daydreaming. Certainly no socializing.
That will solve the problem!!

[KayFaybe]

Here is an interesting story I would love your opinions on.

But seriously, am I wrong to be upset about this "reading policy"? How does forcing a kid to read (outside of classwork obviously) instill a love of reading? Isn't this more social engineering than education? They have decided that kids dont read enough so instead of a creative solution on getting them to read they just create a rule that says everyone must be reading during downtime. No drawing. No daydreaming. Certainly no socializing.
That will solve the problem!!

It's a philosophical question of what you expect education to be like at this stage of life for your son.

In the end, I don't think the school's approach comes from a desire for social engineering, but from the general principles of quality management, which originates more (or is certainly popular) in Corporate America. If you want kids to be proficient in "X" and research shows that "proficiency in X" is correlated with "time spent doing Y", then people who value efficiency will of course want the kids to spend as much time as possible doing Y. And down time is a no-no. Any time spent on an activity that is not correlated with some measure of a positive outcome is viewed as time wasted. The school is doing what they think is best, but one might say that quality management only permits a narrow view of "best".

I know families who home school precisely because they want their kid to have downtime and daydreaming time and doodling time.

Of course, another possibility is that the school is run by liberals. And, as we all know, anyone who is not a Republican / anarchist / libertarian / Trump voter simply wants to control us all, is not interested at all in the welfare of any kids, and is only interested secretly brainwashing them.

[flyingpylon]

I have to first explain why you have to have a book vs doing anything else that doesn't cause an issue and not be sarcastic about it so he doesn't carry that attitude to school.

Give it a few more years and your son will know it's all just bullshit and many of the people at school are freakin' nuts. You won't be able to give the answer above because once you know that your son knows it's all bullshit it will be more important to you that he knows you are not also going to stand there and bullshit him. It will just be a practical matter about how sometimes in life you just have to do what you have to do to stay out of trouble. There are always choices to be made and potential consequences to suffer, only he can decide what works best for him.

[Kbg]

Yeah, seems a bit extreme to me. If the school knows he’s autistic, doubly so. In terms of a solution based approach, any chance of meeting with someone to determine something workable and reasonable given your child’s specifics?

[jalanlong]

As a follow-up to this discussion from a few months ago, I found out this week that my son's Middle School gives out detentions for not reading. This was the email I received from the district:

"Regarding the lunch detentions that other teachers do, the process is as follows:

Student conference and Parent Contact
Parent Contact
Lunch Detention
Lunch Detention
Admin Referral

Since it is a requirement for all students by the district to read for at least 10 mins in class or when there is down time, the English/Reading teachers follow the above process when students are refusing to read. They talk to the student about it, then contact parents twice, then give lunch detentions. Students are also required to read for at least 20 - 30 mins at home Monday thru Thursday."

I can only hear the boss in Cool Hand Luke.."Any man caught not readin' spends a night in the box."

[pp4me]

Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them

They say "Sing while you slave" and I just get bored
Ah, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

I think this song was playing in my head when I was handed my high school diploma. I must have been on some kind of spectrum.

[Xan]

I was thinking about your troubles with the masking rules at your kid's school, jalanlong. I'm thinking that the answer to all of this is to end the monopoly of government-run schools.

All schools should be private. The state government can set some dollar amount that is attached to the kid to be spent on school. Anything over that the parent covers.

It seems to me this would create schools that answer to parents, and a lot of different schools with a lot of different policies. Want masks? Fine. No masks? Fine. This reading thing? Well, if you don't like it, you have options.

[SomeDude]

I was thinking about your troubles with the masking rules at your kid's school, jalanlong. I'm thinking that the answer to all of this is to end the monopoly of government-run schools.

All schools should be private. The state government can set some dollar amount that is attached to the kid to be spent on school. Anything over that the parent covers.

It seems to me this would create schools that answer to parents, and a lot of different schools with a lot of different policies. Want masks? Fine. No masks? Fine. This reading thing? Well, if you don't like it, you have options.

I was going to post something similar. I don't like the idea of anything government related with regards to education, but a voucher that can only be turned in for education costs would be an improvement. There would still be fraud and only certain schools would make it on the approved list, but there would be some type of market force as parents voted with their vouchers.

education costs would plummet and quality would rise. Heck, you could do away with all the education department and teacher's unions. You might even get a lot fewer libs in education teaching the kids to be communists and to hate 'merica.

[flyingpylon]

You guys better be careful with that kind of talk... it won't be long before you'll be labeled "domestic terrorists".

[SomeDude]

You guys better be careful with that kind of talk... it won't be long before you'll be labeled "domestic terrorists".

If there's a list, chances are good I'm already on it.

[jalanlong]

I was thinking about your troubles with the masking rules at your kid's school, jalanlong. I'm thinking that the answer to all of this is to end the monopoly of government-run schools.

All schools should be private. The state government can set some dollar amount that is attached to the kid to be spent on school. Anything over that the parent covers.

It seems to me this would create schools that answer to parents, and a lot of different schools with a lot of different policies. Want masks? Fine. No masks? Fine. This reading thing? Well, if you don't like it, you have options.

I thought about this years before Covid. In Texas as long as I have been alive there have been constant battles over what to teach in schools and put in the textbooks as far as religion or sex education etc. And I always thought that everyone pays taxes so everyone has a right to have what they want taught in the schools. But that is obviously not possible. The only solution is to make schooling private. You could then go to any sort of school you wanted and have your kids taught whatever they want. In the case of my son maybe we could find a school that started later in the day since his normal body rhythm seems to be more of an 11am to 12pm sort of thing.

I don't think it would fly for many reasons. Obviously now the education industrial complex has their hooks into the tax payers they would never allow it. There would be a sufficient number of people who think that anything profit making shouldn't be in education. And also I think that a lot of people are just lazy. A private system means they would have to go out and do research, comparison shop, save money to pay for school etc. I believe a lot of people like the whole scenario of someone just telling you where to go to school and already funding it for you. All you have to do is just show up when they tell you.

[Xan]

Private doesn't necessarily mean profit-making: I would think most schools would be non-profits.

You're probably right about it being a pipe dream. But something like it happened in Louisiana (or at least in New Orleans?) right after Katrina: the public school system was demolished and replaced with 100% charter schools.

[yankees60]

I was thinking about your troubles with the masking rules at your kid's school, jalanlong. I'm thinking that the answer to all of this is to end the monopoly of government-run schools.

All schools should be private. The state government can set some dollar amount that is attached to the kid to be spent on school. Anything over that the parent covers.

It seems to me this would create schools that answer to parents, and a lot of different schools with a lot of different policies. Want masks? Fine. No masks? Fine. This reading thing? Well, if you don't like it, you have options.

What is the record of private school outcomes compared to private when normalized for similar type students? And, taking Catholic schools out of the equation since they are subsidized by the church.

[I Shrugged]

You might like the book, The Beautiful Tree, by James Tooley, about poor people in the third world who give up on the free government schools. It’s about alternative schools, not home schooling.

I just heard a discussion about US schooling. Years ago there were 100,000 one room schools in the country. They turned out excellent students, and they reflected the sensibilities of the community. But over time, well, we know what schools became.

Home schooling sounds very hard, but I sure admire those parents who do it today.

[yankees60]

You might like the book, The Beautiful Tree, by James Tooley, about poor people in the third world who give up on the free government schools. It’s about alternative schools, not home schooling.

I just heard a discussion about US schooling. Years ago there were 100,000 one room schools in the country. They turned out excellent students, and they reflected the sensibilities of the community. But over time, well, we know what schools became.

Home schooling sounds very hard, but I sure admire those parents who do it today.

Have I already asked this question somewhere?

How many of us had a pre-college public school education and how would you rate it?

Mine was 100% public and I'd rate it excellent. It was definitely always politically neutral.

But I think someone may have pointed out that our experiences are irrelevant since we are such an old group with our public school experiences being far removed from the current public school experience?

[yankees60]

You might like the book, The Beautiful Tree, by James Tooley, about poor people in the third world who give up on the free government schools. It’s about alternative schools, not home schooling.

I just heard a discussion about US schooling. Years ago there were 100,000 one room schools in the country. They turned out excellent students, and they reflected the sensibilities of the community. But over time, well, we know what schools became.

Home schooling sounds very hard, but I sure admire those parents who do it today.

Have I already asked this question somewhere?

How many of us had a pre-college public school education and how would you rate it?

Mine was 100% public and I'd rate it excellent. It was definitely always politically neutral.

But I think someone may have pointed out that our experiences are irrelevant since we are such an old group with our public school experiences being far removed from the current public school experience?

I'm not sure Chicago Public Schools were really any better 30 years ago, but 24% of CPS 11th-graders read at grade level, yet district graduates 85% of students

Wouldn't average SAT scores be somewhat a proxy of the state of public education?

I'm seeing somewhat of a decline over the past 50 or so years but not a precipitous one.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sa ... -over-time

[Xan]

You might like the book, The Beautiful Tree, by James Tooley, about poor people in the third world who give up on the free government schools. It’s about alternative schools, not home schooling.

I just heard a discussion about US schooling. Years ago there were 100,000 one room schools in the country. They turned out excellent students, and they reflected the sensibilities of the community. But over time, well, we know what schools became.

Home schooling sounds very hard, but I sure admire those parents who do it today.

Have I already asked this question somewhere?

How many of us had a pre-college public school education and how would you rate it?

Mine was 100% public and I'd rate it excellent. It was definitely always politically neutral.

But I think someone may have pointed out that our experiences are irrelevant since we are such an old group with our public school experiences being far removed from the current public school experience?

I'm not sure Chicago Public Schools were really any better 30 years ago, but 24% of CPS 11th-graders read at grade level, yet district graduates 85% of students

Wouldn't average SAT scores be somewhat a proxy of the state of public education?

I'm seeing somewhat of a decline over the past 50 or so years but not a precipitous one.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sa ... -over-time

If every student took the SAT instead of just the college-bound ones, maybe. And we also don't know whether the test is as difficult now as it was then.

[flyingpylon]

More and more colleges are making the SAT and ACT optional, so it will be interesting to see how long they stay relevant. But testing and test prep is big business so that always has to be factored in.

The tests have changed over the years so I think it would be difficult to put much trust into any comparisons.

[Kriegsspiel]

I'm currently reading The Case Against Education by Caplan. He's a college professor (fellow autist Tyler Cowen helped him get his job) who successfully homeschooled a couple of his kids. He makes a lot of points, like how an absurd amount of time is wasted in schools on useless subjects like Art and Music and Theater and all that bullshit.

To amp up what Xan said, eventually ending government-run schools is the goal, but an immediate solution might be to simply take him out and "homeschool" him, or unschool him. If he's autistic, I'd suspect he'll spend all day studying whatever his focus is.

[yankees60]

I'm currently reading The Case Against Education by Caplan. He's a college professor (fellow autist Tyler Cowen helped him get his job) who successfully homeschooled a couple of his kids. He makes a lot of points, like how an absurd amount of time is wasted in schools on useless subjects like Art and Music and Theater and all that bullshit.

To amp up what Xan said, eventually ending government-run schools is the goal, but an immediate solution might be to simply take him out and "homeschool" him, or unschool him. If he's autistic, I'd suspect he'll spend all day studying whatever his focus is.

Then you and he do not agree with this?

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[jalanlong]

I'm currently reading The Case Against Education by Caplan. He's a college professor (fellow autist Tyler Cowen helped him get his job) who successfully homeschooled a couple of his kids. He makes a lot of points, like how an absurd amount of time is wasted in schools on useless subjects like Art and Music and Theater and all that bullshit.

To amp up what Xan said, eventually ending government-run schools is the goal, but an immediate solution might be to simply take him out and "homeschool" him, or unschool him. If he's autistic, I'd suspect he'll spend all day studying whatever his focus is.

My son is heavily into computer coding, programming languages etc. His public school doesn't teach any of that. However, this week he brought home a 20 page printout on King Tut and he spent 2 hours on Wed night giving a choir concert (choir is forced participation here) where they had to sing pop songs.

Perhaps it all comes down to your view on what school is supposed to do. Is it supposed to teach kids basic skills so that they can go out and get a job? Or is it supposed to create more well-rounded, thoughtful renaissance people who are exposed to a lot of different subjects? Personally I feel like public school tries to take on both and does neither well. For example with music: they do not teach much music theory or how music is created to conjure images in the mind etc. Music in public school is mostly just a series of concerts where the kids can go perform so their parents can take photos and put them on social media.

[Kriegsspiel]

My son is heavily into computer coding, programming languages etc. His public school doesn't teach any of that. However, this week he brought home a 20 page printout on King Tut and he spent 2 hours on Wed night giving a choir concert (choir is forced participation here) where they had to sing pop songs.

I suspect that years of self-directed computer programming would lead him to a much more successful and satisfying life than continuing in public school. Are there obstacles in Texas in the way of doing something like that?

Perhaps it all comes down to your view on what school is supposed to do. Is it supposed to teach kids basic skills so that they can go out and get a job? Or is it supposed to create more well-rounded, thoughtful renaissance people who are exposed to a lot of different subjects? Personally I feel like public school tries to take on both and does neither well. For example with music: they do not teach much music theory or how music is created to conjure images in the mind etc. Music in public school is mostly just a series of concerts where the kids can go perform so their parents can take photos and put them on social media.

You should read that book. And Caplan's experience in homeschooling.

[I Shrugged]

I saw first hand the score inflation in the ACT tests. Comparing scores in my era to those in my kids’ era. The kids were not smarter but their scores were much higher.