Big City to Rural Living: Considerations?

[Hal]

Hi Tom,

I think moving to a rural area is a fine idea, especially if you are semi/fully retiring.
So here are some thoughts from an ex-country hick from Australia (finished secondary school, joined Army, you know the story)

I’ve never lived on a rural place but as a long-time registered Democrat, inspired by the courageousness of our first black and first female Vice President, I am exploring the possibility of moving from a big city to a rural area.

Because I want my vote to count, I’m only interested in “red” states with lax gun control. So I can teach the people who live there the error of their ways and vote towards change. Thus California, the Pacific Northwest, and the north east are all out.

Guns are taboo here, but, as a general rule here, the higher the speed limits, the less draconian the state. May be same in the USA

I’ve never lived in a rural area, only visited a very small number of times, and it’s been decades so I don’t know what it’s like now, in the age of satellite internet and Amazon Prime. It seems a lot more livable now than ever before.

If you get a property near a mobile phone tower you should have no problems. Speeds are better than fibre to the node here

Main benefits will be significantly reduced cost of living. I may completely retire or I may work remotely for some period of time, if I have reasonable internet access speeds to allow screen sharing and Remote Desktop access. I’d love to own a large piece of land, maybe 20 acres. I see a football field is 1.3 acres and I think if I had about 20 acres, I could do daily walks around my land, with a rifle slung to my back to teach any local Trump supporters who venture by accident into my land, about gun safety. And that might be enough size to not get bored.

Just make sure those Trumpians don't shoot back If you want to do any sort of shooting, a property on a slope is good as it provides a backstop. Can't go killing the neighbours with stray bullets can we?

I’d definitely raise chickens for fresh eggs and have some kind of garden. I may get involved with cattle for access to fresh beef but I know nothing about it and the effort may be exorbitant for a few animals and I may grow emotionally attached to them.

Make sure that hillside property faces the sun for your gardens sake. Also hillside provides opportunity to put in a dam. Also get the soil tested so you know how deep the topsoil is and if you need to add trace elements. Cattle, believe me, you won't get attached. Want attachment - get a Collie dog

My main concerns are privacy, because in a small town, I imagine everyone knows your business. I like to keep to myself but I’d also like to develop a local community of people to barter with, in case the capitalists figure out a way to ruin the economic prosperity that our Democratic leaders will otherwise bring. So if I can trade tutoring a neighbors kid in math for auto repair work or something like that, it would be amazing to have cool neighbors a distance away.

Privacy! Didn't know what privacy was until I moved to Melbourne. Tellers in the bank talking openly about locals bank balances. Checkout girl asking if we were having visitor as we purchased extra groceries. OMG! Regional schools here a cr*p so tutoring a definite possibility. Used to repair other farmers TV's and get paid with a side of beef.

I’m terrified of meth addicts and tweakers coming into my property. Because the Trump administration has demonized addicts and demonetized drug treatment programs. So I’d like to live in an area where they won’t stumble onto my land.

Don't live near towns with government housing or jails/Pschy Hospitals

I hate the idea that to go to a grocery store, I have to drive 40 minutes, half on dirt roads, in a 4wd truck, to get to a local Piggly Wiggly that’s the size of a small pharmacy in a big city. Although the older I get, the less variety of foods I need and my goal is to bring only fresh Whole Foods into my home, nothing processed, and cook all meals myself. Amazon prime can likely deliver any odd or ethnic spices the predominately white population of this area won’t stock in local stores.

We only went shopping weekly if that. 2WD vehicles are fine as long as you have an aggressive tire tread. And MUCH cheaper/easier to repair. Still no home deliveries where I grew up.

I’m also concerned about airport proximity. If something happens to my parents living in another state, I don’t want to have to drive 3 hours to the airport, which has no direct flights to where they live, and only have a single flight out a day anyway. Perhaps once they pass, I’ll be less concerned about this. And maybe it’s fine. I don’t want to live my life around waiting for the day they’re near dead to be more convenient to visit them at the hospital, assuming I can even get there in time.

Try buying a property within 1/2 to an hours drive to a train station. Very useful for getting to large cities/airports

Regarding city conveniences, I realize other than grocery shopping and going to a gym, I don’t do much. I don’t buy clothes or furniture or anything in person. A hardware store will be nice but I imagine they’re everywhere, even rural places. I’ve already bought everything for a home gym thanks to covid, so I can be responsible and not infect anyone at-risk. Movie theaters I only go to once every 8 to 16 months so if I have to drive an hour to one that’s fine.

I envision I might do a once a month or every 2 months trip for 2 hours to a big city and spend the day there.

Access to healthcare is something I’m not concerned about at all right now. I imagine as I age, if I feel it necessary, I’ll move to a city with access to great hospitals. But living in a rural area with fresh air, eating clean foods, and reduced stress of life (maybe) I imagine is better preventative care than living in a city with smog, processed foods, and tons of stress just so I can get an MRI quickly.

Healthcare is actually better in large regional hospitals than large city hospitals. When my mother gets seriously ill, I drive her to a regional hospital.

Natural water access seems important so a lot of Utah, Arizona and Texas are probably out. If I could have some small body of water on my property like a pond, or if a lake was nearby my land I could walk to, that would be incredible.

Check out if there are bores in your area, otherwise checkout that hillside approach

Extreme cold weather is out, if only because I won’t be able to walk my property for a few months of the year and my chickens will freeze to death. I looked at Wyoming and the average weather is terrifying. I have lived in cold places but not that cold for that long. Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Texas seem like candidates.

Why not move to Australia? You could re-educate our leaders here while you're at it. Also consider doing a short, say 3 month agricultural course at a community college. You should learn about what sort of land will suit your needs

I’m very open to this possibility to spread my love of democracy to a rural Red state, so let me know considerations that would help me decide if it’s going to work, aspects of the areas to research to pick a space, and what it’s like to live like this.

[I Shrugged]

You might be amazed to hear that the boomers grew up without internet or convenient delivery or big stores. It was so much better in so many ways, but of course it’s not very relevant today. Unless you emigrate, which is worth considering. Watch some Nomad Capitalist vids for ideas.

Until recently we lived on 6 acres on water, outside of a small town. Other than the long walk on property, it was what you described. The nearby small town had an independent grocery, a drugstore, hardware store, gas, booze, nursery, restaurants. The count seat was 15 minutes and had the chain grocery, wal mart, big box home center, and more. We were a half hour to the start of the big city suburbs and an hour plus to the heart of the big city.

East of the Mississippi, water is plentiful. Being from the desert you probably can’t imagine what that’s really like. You’d have your own well and septic. You don’t need to be on a body of water. I would say the same is true in eastern half of Texas, in Arkansas, Missouri, eastern Iowa. Arkansas is a red state, and liberals are not moving there, unlike Texas, Florida, Arizona. Check out the ozarks. So you’d need to take your Biden bumper sticker off before moving in.

[DoomVoyager]

lmao you're gonna have a bad time.

[I Shrugged]

As far as what it's like to live rural, I think it's great, but I grew up rural. Starbucks will not be around the corner. Nor will be a fine restaurant. Groceries and hardware will probably cost more. It's a small town tax. But as I've grown to see the dark side of big corps driving all the businesses out, I've made the decision to shop the smaller places as much as possible.

In the states you mentioned, you can be rural and still within an hour of a reasonably busy airport. Well, Indy, Nashville, and some of the TX airports. Little Rock isn't as big. Alabama, I'm guessing you'll be shuttling to ATL. And have you considered rural north central Florida? It's low cost and there are rural lifestyles aplenty. Not the traditional perception of Florida.

I don't think everyone will know your business. Society has changed in the internet/Amazon era, everyone is in their own little world. You'll just be the weird guy who walks around your property carrying your rifle. In all seriousness, don't be that guy. Hoping that was just hyperbole.

[Kriegsspiel]

I’m very open to this possibility to spread my love of democracy to a rural Red state, so let me know considerations that would help me decide if it’s going to work, aspects of the areas to research to pick a space, and what it’s like to live like this.

Your constraints are barely constraints, it seems like an absolute fuckload of places would work for you. If you want to narrow it down, maybe focus on the area between the 100th Meridian and I-95 that are within 3 hours of an airport.

FYI, with a 20 acre property, there isn't anything you can do about people trespassing if they really want to. If your property borders a well-traveled road, they may even dump garbage on your property.

[Kriegsspiel]

Try buying a property within 1/2 to an hours drive to a train station. Very useful for getting to large cities/airports

In case anyone had any doubts that Hal is NOT AMERICAN

[Hal]

Try buying a property within 1/2 to an hours drive to a train station. Very useful for getting to large cities/airports

In case anyone had any doubts that Hal is NOT AMERICAN

Heh, Near where I used to live! -> https://digitised-collections.unimelb.e ... 1343/70603

We do have those new fangled trains now !!!
PS: We had some European relatives come over around 1990. They were in fits of laughter and saying "Where are the cowboys & Indians?"
Come over here Tom. The only Meth addicts at my home town would be drinking Methylated Spirits (with Orange juice of course)

[WiseOne]

TF, don't rule out the entire Northeast. Take a look at New Hampshire and Maine. You would like the lifestyle in western Massachusetts very much also, but you probably wouldn't like that state's tax structure, nanny laws etc. But, you should look anyway because life is all about compromises. Same applies to upstate New York.

If I ever choose to leave NYC, those are my preferred escape sites. There are positive cultural aspects to a big city that I would definitely miss - too bad about the baggage that comes with it. These places give you a decent amount of that. If you're a homebody like me, you don't need much to satisfy that cultural itch.

Unfortunately, druggies come with the rural territory because there isn't a whole lot else to do for kids & irresponsible adults.

By the way a comment about your take on housing. I was first looking to buy in the mid 2000s, when exactly the same thing was happening to housing prices. I had that same sense that housing prices were going up faster than my ability to save a down payment, and it was mathematically impossible for me to get on the bandwagon. What was really going on, though, was a housing bubble. By definition, that state of affairs is not sustainable. All you have to do is wait for the bubble to burst. I jumped on in 2008, before the absolute bottom but after prices had softened considerably. 7 years later I decided to sell and move to a cheaper location with better quality of life (for me). I made a killing, and calculated that my sunk costs for the 7 years was equivalent to paying just $700/month in rent.

[Kriegsspiel]

TF, don't rule out the entire Northeast. Take a look at New Hampshire and Maine. You would like the lifestyle in western Massachusetts very much also, but you probably wouldn't like that state's tax structure, nanny laws etc. But, you should look anyway because life is all about compromises. Same applies to upstate New York.

Be that as it may, why would you compromise if you don't have to? There are other states that are more suitable for tom, so why not rule out the least desirable ones? BUT, if maybe tom wanted to look at rural NH, he would want to make sure that he operates some kind of small-scale agricultural operation (like Christmas trees) so that he can pay lower property taxes, which are very high for residential real estate in NH.

Unfortunately, druggies come with the rural territory because there isn't a whole lot else to do for kids & irresponsible adults.

It's funny, isn't it. Someone I know recently had to write a paper about drug use and obesity in rural West Virginia. The idea that it's all due to hopelessness and despair is crazy to me! A lot (the majority?) of those people are getting tons of free money (welfare, "disability," WIC, etc), and it's so cheap to live there, they could be living the life! Riding 4-wheelers and dirt bikes, hunting and fishing, hanging out around a bonfire with friends, BBQing, going for hikes. I mean, the hiking opportunities alone should put them at the top of the happiness spectrum, judging from what I'm seeing on online dating profiles. Or just wasting time on the internet. Granted, there are a lot of people that do just that, but my point is that it's not rural living that causes these problems, which is apparently what they're teaching our future public health leaders.

By the way a comment about your take on housing. I was first looking to buy in the mid 2000s, when exactly the same thing was happening to housing prices. I had that same sense that housing prices were going up faster than my ability to save a down payment, and it was mathematically impossible for me to get on the bandwagon. What was really going on, though, was a housing bubble. By definition, that state of affairs is not sustainable. All you have to do is wait for the bubble to burst. I jumped on in 2008, before the absolute bottom but after prices had softened considerably. 7 years later I decided to sell and move to a cheaper location with better quality of life (for me). I made a killing, and calculated that my sunk costs for the 7 years was equivalent to paying just $700/month in rent.

I wasn't as fortunate to buy at the bottom of the market (props to you), but if I were to sell my house tomorrow, it would work out to paying $460/mo all inclusive rent. When one of my friends I met while living in TX sold her house, she said it had appreciated so much that it netted her a profit after covering all of her housing expenses over the few years she lived there. It pays to live in the path of development

[WiseOne]

By the way a comment about your take on housing. I was first looking to buy in the mid 2000s, when exactly the same thing was happening to housing prices. I had that same sense that housing prices were going up faster than my ability to save a down payment, and it was mathematically impossible for me to get on the bandwagon. What was really going on, though, was a housing bubble. By definition, that state of affairs is not sustainable. All you have to do is wait for the bubble to burst. I jumped on in 2008, before the absolute bottom but after prices had softened considerably. 7 years later I decided to sell and move to a cheaper location with better quality of life (for me). I made a killing, and calculated that my sunk costs for the 7 years was equivalent to paying just $700/month in rent.

I wasn't as fortunate to buy at the bottom of the market (props to you), but if I were to sell my house tomorrow, it would work out to paying $460/mo all inclusive rent. When one of my friends I met while living in TX sold her house, she said it had appreciated so much that it netted her a profit after covering all of her housing expenses over the few years she lived there. It pays to live in the path of development

Nice!!

I like that rent-equivalent calculation much better than the usual rent vs buy calculators, which ignore all kinds of important stuff. I even included an estimate of investment returns for the down payment plus mortgage principle payments - can't forget about that.

It is critical not to overpay for housing though. A lot of people are doing that right now, and they're going to be really upset a few years from now when they find out they're underwater. Also, to make this work you do have to buy in a desirable area. Tom, worry not and be patient...your day will come. Such is the nature of bubbles. My wait was about 3 years. Yours may not be that long.

[Kriegsspiel]

As far as the North East, the property taxes are too high. The difference between a $300k house in a rural area with $1k a year property taxes, and a similar house in New Hampshire with $5k property taxes, is about $100k.

Meaning, if I want to retire early and settle down, I can afford only a $200k house with $5k property taxes, with the same money as a $300k house with $1k taxes. Because the extra $333 per month property tax expediture will require $100k in savings to afford to pay in perpetuity.

And taxes tend to go up exponentially, so if the tax rate of the $5k North East home goes up 10%, that's $500 increase. But if the tax rate of the $1k home goes up 10%, that's a $100 increase. And taxes have no where to go but up.

So living in the middle of nowhere with 20 acres of land, paying as little as possible to the city/county seems ideal to me these days.

Again, in NH you will need to apply for 'current use' to reduce your property taxes. What I've been saying is you could just buy land in a state with property taxes that are already low as a matter of course.

[doodle]

I'm in similar situation as you. Sold all of my properties a few years ago thinking we were in a bubble...been waiting for the shoe to drop since then.

The reality is this trajectory cannot continue forever...

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So living in the middle of nowhere with 20 acres of land, paying as little as possible to the city/county seems ideal to me these days.

I can tell you that there is A LOT of open land in this country....which is easy to forget when you live in a city. Even California is mostly uninhabited land...some of the most desolate places I've been were in that supposedly "crowded" state. Finding twenty acres in the middle of nowhere wont be a problem in our lifetimes. I've transitioned from very urban living to semi rural living for the time being. Covid makes it easier but in the absence of lockdowns my perspective would change. It can get really boring out here....and I'm in a place with an abundance of natural beauty and outdoor activities...I can't imagine what one would do all day out in the boonies of Texas.

Also, if you are going to be outside a city, i'd say 20 to 30 miles would be the max I'd want to go. Anything longer and doing anything from running to the hardware store, to grocery shopping is going to be a total pain in the ass.

Thats one of the advantages of the northeast...you can live out in the country and be within close proximity of many developed towns and cities...out west here, not so much.

[Tortoise]

Trying to time bubbles can often backfire.

Tom wants to buy a house because he thinks the bubble will probably continue to inflate for a long time. Conversely, WiseOne thinks Tom should wait because she thinks the bubble will likely burst within a few years.

Both of those positions strike me as attempts to time the bubble; they’re just opposing bets.

My attitude has always been that if it’s cheaper to rent, rent, and if it’s cheaper to buy, buy (assuming you have enough cash for a down payment). And if there are important non-financial factors like quality of life, family lifestyle, mobility and minimal responsibility, desire to be able to modify the property and make your own repairs, etc., those may override the purely financial calculations depending on your personal priorities.

[doodle]

Trying to time bubbles can often backfire.

Tom wants to buy a house because he thinks the bubble will probably continue to inflate for a long time. Conversely, WiseOne thinks Tom should wait because she thinks the bubble will likely burst within a few years.

Both of those positions strike me as attempts to time the bubble; they’re just opposing bets.

My attitude has always been that if it’s cheaper to rent, rent, and if it’s cheaper to buy, buy (assuming you have enough cash for a down payment). And if there are important non-financial factors like quality of life, family lifestyle, mobility and minimal responsibility, desire to be able to modify the property and make your own repairs, etc., those may override the purely financial calculations depending on your personal priorities.

All true, however it's also important to point out that this bubble hasn't inflated equally across the country....if Tom has the flexibility to consider any location...which it appears he does...there are plenty of red states out there with very cheap real estate. West Virginia would be at the top of my list or perhaps kentucky or tennessee...all beautiful states, low property taxes, strong gun communities. Finding pretty nice houses in decent sized towns out there for under 100k and definitely under 200k is not a problem. Why are you opposed to those states that seem to fit exactly what you are looking for?

[Kriegsspiel]

It can get really boring out here....and I'm in a place with an abundance of natural beauty and outdoor activities...I can't imagine what one would do all day out in the boonies of Texas.

I'd think a lot of dirt bike and ATV riding, shooting guns (maybe blowing shit up), hunting/fishing, swimming... Of course, you can do all that throughout Appalachia and ALSO be under 2 hours to a ski resort in the winter (or just cross-country ski outside your door).

[Kriegsspiel]

there are plenty of red states out there with very cheap real estate. West Virginia would be at the top of my list or perhaps kentucky or tennessee...all beautiful states, low property taxes, strong gun communities. Finding pretty nice houses in decent sized towns out there for under 100k and definitely under 200k is not a problem. Why are you opposed to those states that seem to fit exactly what you are looking for?

Now you're talking some sense!

[doodle]

It can get really boring out here....and I'm in a place with an abundance of natural beauty and outdoor activities...I can't imagine what one would do all day out in the boonies of Texas.

I'd think a lot of dirt bike and ATV riding, shooting guns (maybe blowing shit up), hunting/fishing, swimming... Of course, you can do all that throughout Appalachia and ALSO be under 2 hours to a ski resort in the winter (or just cross-country ski outside your door).

Yes, for sure...if that's your thing there are a lot of places you can enjoy those activities...I was surprised by Mississippi as well...lots of nice rolling hills and forests. I saw a lot of people out on ATVs roaming around in full camo hunting turkey or pheasant or whatever. Again..very cheap place. This bubble is primarily happening in specific cities in the country... If you are willing to go a bit off the beaten track there are plenty of places that are still affordable. It's kind of like dating...sometimes the super popular attractive places are all makeup and smoke and mirrors that are rotten on the inside. You got to look deeper....past the frumpy exterior and crooked teeth and you might find a gem. West Virginia is a state that intrigues me a lot..as well as appalachia in general.

[doodle]

Oh, and if you aren't too bothered by proximity to EPA superfund sites there are lots of amazing and beatiful areas with bad environmental legacies...Kellogg, Idaho and Anaconda, Montana come to mind....both cool places

[Kriegsspiel]

It can get really boring out here....and I'm in a place with an abundance of natural beauty and outdoor activities...I can't imagine what one would do all day out in the boonies of Texas.

I'd think a lot of dirt bike and ATV riding, shooting guns (maybe blowing shit up), hunting/fishing, swimming... Of course, you can do all that throughout Appalachia and ALSO be under 2 hours to a ski resort in the winter (or just cross-country ski outside your door).

Yes, for sure...if that's your thing there are a lot of places you can enjoy those activities...

For some reason, artsy people move to rural Texas (Marfa) to paint and shit as well.

I was surprised by Mississippi as well...lots of nice rolling hills and forests. I saw a lot of people out on ATVs roaming around in full camo hunting turkey or pheasant or whatever. Again..very cheap place. This bubble is primarily happening in specific cities in the country... If you are willing to go a bit off the beaten track there are plenty of places that are still affordable.

This is correct.

It's kind of like dating...sometimes the super popular attractive places are all makeup and smoke and mirrors that are rotten on the inside. You got to look deeper....past the frumpy exterior and crooked teeth and you might find a gem. West Virginia is a state that intrigues me a lot..as well as appalachia in general.

lol who hurt you

I'm considering moving to WV in the next couple years.

[Kriegsspiel]

Part of my desire to own a bunch of land in a rural area is my desire to play Minecraft in real life. Buy a bunch of bricks, build a fire pit, buy a bunch of building material to build a shed, etc.

Building my own chicken coops to raise chickens, etc.

Doing this behavior in a city gives me a headache just thinking about it. Going to the courthouse, filing for permits, paying money for permission to alter my property, inviting their inspectors into my sanctuary to inspect my work and hope their wife laid that them week and they nod and let me keep what I build and don't demand I tear it down immediately.

Am I right to assume that in a rural area, you can do more of what you want without government interference? Or is it the same shit everywhere, government hands in your pockets, controlling every aspect of your life?

I don't want to have to hire local PhDs from the university who majored in gender studies and minored in ecology to have to do a 3-month study of my property to ensure the fire pit I am building doesn't result in gender disparity issues of native species of land snails.

You're going to have to look at it on a county by county basis, probably. I mean, Johnny (Granola Shotgun) has wrote extensively about the issues he has with (I believe) Marin County. He lives in a more residential area, with neighbors, but the county still sticks its nose in his business. But in general, yes, you are more free to do what you want out in the county than you would be within city limits. One of the most fun things I've seen was on one property where the guy put in an entire 18-hole frisbee golf course.

[doodle]

Finding a place without covenants and regs is pretty easy if you are willing to go entirely off grid...if you are connected to city services at all generally expect things to be more restrictive...also a lot of rural lots I have looked at that were parceled off from former ranches and what not had somewhat restrictive covenants as to what you could do with land...generally the developer selling the land was trying to guard against someone coming in and getting too weird and driving down values. In my case I need something without any restrictions....if I want to build a city out of abandoned school buses I need that freedom...

Also, a lot of this is county based... For example Northern and eastern Cali and Southern and eastern Oregon have entirely different mindsets compared to their states more urban areas....actually, for anyone but the Uber rich Cali isn't really bad at all. You hear so much negative about it but frankly I haven't found that to be true.

[Maddy]

Am I right to assume that in a rural area, you can do more of what you want without government interference? Or is it the same shit everywhere, government hands in your pockets, controlling every aspect of your life?

People from the city are moving to the country in droves, and with them come their city attitudes. That can, and often does, include all of the authoritarian impulses that a certain political persuasion tends to embrace.

I'm fortunate to live in a remote, heavily forested rural area with a strong libertarian ethic. So my experience may not be representative of what you'd find elsewhere. But just to give you an idea of what you'd encounter on a 20-acre parcel some distance from town:

- You can build fire pits all day long with no one looking cross-eyed at you. You can burn pastures and piles of slash. But a burn barrel, if discovered, may get you fined. Come summer, when the forest is dry and grass fires are common, you'd better not be burning anything at all or you WILL get a visit from a concerned neighbor, or even the sheriff.

- You can build a chicken coop without a permit. Heck, you can live in it if you please. But if your coop is permanently attached to the ground, the county will probably notice it in their aerial photos and tax you on it.

- You can put a hole in the ground and call it your septic system.

- You can shoot all day long, including rapid-fire shooting that annoys the hell out of everyone. But tannerite targets will bring out the sheriff.

- You can build a shed on the corner of your property and sell crafts and homegrown produce out of it. But if you're selling raw milk, expect to get shut down.

- You can have dogs running free without the necessity of fences. However, if a dog bothers livestock, he's probably going to be shot on sight.

- You can amass a collection of 150 rusted-out automobiles and park them all over your property. But the sheriff will probably make it his business to know your name.

[Mark Leavy]

SWM seeks SWF for long walks on the beach, fireside poetry and domestic table wine.

[yankees60]

Am I right to assume that in a rural area, you can do more of what you want without government interference? Or is it the same shit everywhere, government hands in your pockets, controlling every aspect of your life?

People from the city are moving to the country in droves, and with them come their city attitudes. That can, and often does, include all of the authoritarian impulses that a certain political persuasion tends to embrace.

I'm fortunate to live in a remote, heavily forested rural area with a strong libertarian ethic. So my experience may not be representative of what you'd find elsewhere. But just to give you an idea of what you'd encounter on a 20-acre parcel some distance from town:

- You can build fire pits all day long with no one looking cross-eyed at you. You can burn pastures and piles of slash. But a burn barrel, if discovered, may get you fined. Come summer, when the forest is dry and grass fires are common, you'd better not be burning anything at all or you WILL get a visit from a concerned neighbor, or even the sheriff.

- You can build a chicken coop without a permit. Heck, you can live in it if you please. But if your coop is permanently attached to the ground, the county will probably notice it in their aerial photos and tax you on it.

- You can put a hole in the ground and call it your septic system.

- You can shoot all day long, including rapid-fire shooting that annoys the hell out of everyone. But tannerite targets will bring out the sheriff.

- You can build a shed on the corner of your property and sell crafts and homegrown produce out of it. But if you're selling raw milk, expect to get shut down.

- You can have dogs running free without the necessity of fences. However, if a dog bothers livestock, he's probably going to be shot on sight.

- You can amass a collection of 150 rusted-out automobiles and park them all over your property. But the sheriff will probably make it his business to know your name.

The picture below is of my "neighborhood". Definitely rural. Is it oxymoronic to describe it as "residential rural"? Definitely rural but I can hear neighbors talking from six adjoining properties (but generally don't since I'm always listening to something through headphones whenever I am outside).

On one of those properties the neighbor put up a huge garage without contacting the town. Turns out it was too close to the road (according to the zoning bylaws). I don't think anything happened to him.

I know that by the same bylaws I'm not permitted to put a ground solar array on my property (too close to neighbor's property) and I'd probably not get granted a variance.

I am almost certain that the law also states that there is only one unregistered vehicle allowed on your property.

That same neighbor seems to have 10-20 vehicles (I've never counted. It's just a lot! Also, several boats). They've been there for decades. We are the main road in the area (40 mph and first road snow plowed). Therefore, it's not like anyone who has say over this violation has never noticed it. But this has been how it's been for decades. Therefore definitely selective enforcement.

On our main road is the police / fire / DPW complex -- 3 miles / 5 minutes away.

Also, on our street, two miles away, is a "rod and gun" place. I've been there many times, mainly for music events. A mile way is a used bookstore, restaurant, music store, plus other similar things in a tiny "complex".

Closest major grocery store is less than a 10 minute drive.

Somewhat of an ideal place for me in that is not living in either the city or the urban suburbs yet I don't have to travel far to get all I desire from civilization, including my favored recreations of softball, basketball, and live music.

Vinny

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[Hal]

Come summer, when the forest is dry and grass fires are common, you'd better not be burning anything at all or you WILL get a visit from a concerned neighbor, or even the sheriff.

This one I dislike. Does it mean I can't bbq or use a smoker during dry season? What if I'm super careful? It still means no bbq for potentially a few months?

I don't know how often I will actually want to grill something outside, but I've never in my life owned one, because all of the apartments I've lived in forbade them on patios. So perhaps it's not something I'd use too often, but in my mind it's something I'd use weekly. A friend has a pellet smoker and he says it's the best food he's ever had and he uses it regularly.

Perhaps there's some allowance for an actual commercial smoker?

Or if not, perhaps I can get around it by creating some form of trap system to collect the smoke so me my neighbors can't smell it? Assuming it's a large property, my neighbors shouldn't be able to see it.

If you use your BBQ in a garage and leave the door open you should be OK. Honestly, no outdoor BBQ's on Total Fire Ban days, I actually agree with. Having lived through a few bushfires, believe me, its not something you want to experience.
https://www.facebook.com/cfavic/videos/ ... 651539416/

PS; My brother nearly died that day. He was on a train that had to go through the fire front to escape.