Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

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Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:20 pm

I've not been asked infrequently here with what concerns I have had with Trump. I've stated that they are too numerous to name. But the below describes behaviors that do not surprise me in any way.

I was going to just put some excerpts here but I know that some of you will not be able to get to this article plus the Washington Post makes it difficult for me to get good access to this article. Therefore, I am going to try to put the whole thing here.

If you do read it, tell me that you still wanted him as president for the next four years.

It will FOREVER be noted in the history books that it was a blight on this country that he'd been elected to serve for his first term!

Vinny


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Ashley Parker,
Josh Dawsey and
Philip Rucker

Jan. 11, 2021 at 11:21 p.m. EST

Hiding from the rioters in a secret location away from the Capitol, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) appealed to Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser. Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) phoned Ivanka Trump, the president’s daughter.

And Kellyanne Conway, a longtime Trump confidante and former White House senior adviser, called an aide who she knew was standing at the president’s side.

But as senators and House members trapped inside the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday begged for immediate help during the siege, they struggled to get through to the president, who — safely ensconced in the West Wing — was too busy watching fiery TV images of the crisis unfolding around them to act or even bother to hear their pleas.

“He was hard to reach, and you know why? Because it was live TV,” said one close Trump adviser. “If it’s TiVo, he just hits pause and takes the calls. If it’s live TV, he watches it, and he was just watching it all unfold.”

Even as he did so, Trump did not move to act. And the message from those around him — that he needed to call off the angry mob he had egged on just hours earlier, or lives could be lost — was one to which he was not initially receptive.

“It took him awhile to appreciate the gravity of the situation,” Graham said in an interview. “The president saw these people as allies in his journey and sympathetic to the idea that the election was stolen.”

Trump ultimately — and begrudgingly — urged his supporters to “go home in peace.” But the six hours between when the Capitol was breached shortly before 2 p.m. Wednesday afternoon and when it was finally declared secure around 8 p.m. that evening reveal a president paralyzed — more passive viewer than resolute leader, repeatedly failing to perform even the basic duties of his job.

The man who vowed to be a president of law and order failed to enforce the law or restore order. The man who has always seen himself as the protector of uniformed police sat idly by as Capitol Police officers were outnumbered, outmaneuvered, trampled on — and in one case, killed. And the man who had long craved the power of the presidency abdicated many of the responsibilities of the commander in chief.

The episode in which Trump supporters rose up against their own government, leaving five people dead, will be central to any impeachment proceedings, critical to federal prosecutors considering incitement charges against him or his family, and a dark cornerstone of his presidential legacy.

This portrait of the president as the Capitol was under attack on Jan. 6 is the result of interviews with 15 Trump advisers, members of Congress, GOP officials and other Trump confidants, many of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity to share candid details.

The day began ominously, with a “Save America March” on the Ellipse devoted to perpetuating Trump’s baseless claims that somehow the 2020 election was stolen from him.

Before the president’s remarks around noon, several of his family members addressed the crowd with speeches that all shared a central theme: Fight. Eric Trump, one of the president’s sons, told the crowd that lawmakers needed to “show some fight” and “stand up,” before urging the angry mass to “march on the Capitol today.” Donald Trump Jr., another of the president’s sons, exhorted all “red-blooded, patriotic Americans” to “fight for Trump.”

Backstage, as the president prepared to speak, Laura Branigan’s hit “Gloria” was blared to rev up the crowd, and Trump Jr., in a video he recorded for social media, called the rallygoers “awesome patriots that are sick of the bull----.” His girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle, danced to the song and, clenching her right fist, urged people to “fight.”

The president, too, ended his speech with an exhortation, urging the crowd to give Republicans “the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”

“So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue,” he concluded.

What Trump said before his supporters stormed the Capitol, annotated

Trump, however, did not join the angry crowd surging toward the Capitol. Instead, he returned to the White House, where at 2:24 p.m. he tapped out a furious tweet railing against Vice President Pence, who in a letter earlier in the day had made clear that he planned to fulfill his constitutional duties and certify President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala D. Harris as the winners of the 2020 electoral college vote.

“Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify,” he wrote. “USA demands the truth!”

By then, West Wing staffers monitoring initial videos of the protesters on TV and social media were already worried that the situation was escalating and felt that Trump’s tweet attacking Pence was unhelpful.

Press officials had begun discussing a statement from Trump around 2 p.m., when protesters first breached the Capitol, an official familiar with the discussions said. But they were not authorized to speak on behalf of the president and could only take the matter to Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, this person said, adding that “the most infuriating part” of the day was how long it took before Trump finally spoke out.

Around the same time, Trump Jr. headed to the airport for a shuttle flight home to New York. As he waited in an airport lounge to board the plane, the president’s namesake son saw that the rally­goers they had all urged to fight were doing just that, breaching police barricades and laying siege to the Capitol.

An aide called Trump Jr. and suggested he immediately issue a statement urging the rioters to stop. At 2:17 p.m., Trump Jr. hit send on a tweet as he boarded the plane: “This is wrong and not who we are,” he wrote. “Be peaceful and use your 1st Amendment rights, but don’t start acting like the other side. We have a country to save and this doesn’t help anyone.”

But the president himself was busy enjoying the spectacle. Trump watched with interest, buoyed to see that his supporters were fighting so hard on his behalf, one close adviser said.

But if the president didn’t appear to understand the magnitude of the crisis, those in his orbit did. Conway immediately called a close personal aide who she knew was with the president, and said she was adding her name to the chorus of people urging Trump to speak to his supporters. He needed to tell them to stand down and leave the Capitol, she told the aide.

Conway also told the aide that she had received calls from the D.C. mayor’s office asking for help in getting Trump to call up the National Guard.

Ivanka Trump had gone to the Oval Office as soon as the riot became clear, and Graham reached her on her cellphone and implored her for help. “They were all trying to get him to speak out, to tell everyone to leave,” said Graham, referring to the small group of aides with Trump on Wednesday afternoon.

Several Republican members of Congress also called White House aides, begging them to get Trump’s attention and have him call for the violence to end. The lawmakers reiterated that they had been loyal Trump supporters and were even willing to vote against the electoral college results — but were now scared for their lives, officials said.

When the mob first breached the Capitol, coming within mere seconds of entering the Senate chamber, Pence — who was overseeing the electoral certification — was hustled away to a secure location, where he remained for the duration of the siege, despite multiple suggestions from his Secret Service detail that he leave the Capitol, said an official familiar with Pence’s actions that day.

Instead, the vice president fielded calls from congressional leaders furious that the National Guard had not yet been deployed, this official said. Pence, from his secret location in the Capitol, spoke with legislative and military leaders, working to mobilize the soldiers and offering reassurance.

Even as his supporters at the Capitol chanted for Pence to be hanged, Trump never called the vice president to check on him or his family. Marc Short, Pence’s chief of staff, eventually called the White House to let them know that Pence and his team were okay, after receiving no outreach from the president or anyone else in the White House.

Meanwhile, in the West Wing, a small group of aides — including Ivanka Trump, White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany and Meadows — was imploring Trump to speak out against the violence. Meadows’s staff had prompted him to go see the president, with one aide telling the chief of staff before he entered the Oval Office, “They are going to kill people.”

Shortly after 2:30 p.m., the group finally persuaded Trump to send a tweet: “Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement,” he wrote. “They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!”

But the Twitter missive was insufficient, and the president had not wanted to include the final instruction to “stay peaceful,” according to one person familiar with the discussions.

Less than an hour later, aides persuaded Trump to send a second, slightly more forceful tweet: “I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful,” he wrote. “No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order — respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!”

McCarthy did eventually reach Trump, but later told allies that he found the president distracted. So McCarthy repeatedly appeared on television to describe the mayhem, an adviser said, in an effort to explain just how dire the situation was.

McCarthy also called Kushner, who that afternoon was arriving back from a trip to the Middle East. The Secret Service originally warned Kushner that it was unsafe to venture downtown to the White House. McCarthy pleaded with him to persuade Trump to issue a statement for his supporters to leave the Capitol, saying he’d had no luck during his own conversation with Trump, the adviser said. So Kushner headed to the White House.

At one point, Trump worried that the unruly group was frightening GOP lawmakers from doing his bidding and objecting to the election results, an official said.

National security adviser Robert C. O’Brien also began calling members of Congress to ask how he could help. He called Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) around 4 p.m., a Lee spokesman said. In an unlikely twist, Lee had heard from the president earlier — when he accidentally dialed the senator in a bid to reach Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) to discuss overturning the election.

Others were still having trouble getting through to the White House. Speaking on ABC News shortly before 4 p.m. Wednesday, Chris Christie, a GOP former governor of New Jersey, said he’d spent the last 25 minutes trying to reach Trump directly to convey a simple, if urgent, message.

“The president caused this protest to occur; he’s the only one who can make it stop,” Christie said. “The president has to come out and tell his supporters to leave the Capitol grounds and to allow the Congress to do their business peacefully. And anything short of that is an abdication of his responsibility.”


Around this time, the White House was preparing to put out a video address on behalf of the president. They had begun discussing this option earlier but struggled to organize their effort. Biden, meanwhile, stepped forward with remarks that seemed to rise to the occasion: “The scenes of chaos at the Capitol do not reflect the true America, do not represent who we are.”

Trump aides did three takes of the video and chose the most palatable option — despite some West Wing consternation that the president had called the violent protesters “very special.”

“This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people,” Trump said in the video, released shortly after 4 p.m. “We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home, and go home in peace.”

Amid the chaos, D.C. Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) had implemented a 6 p.m. curfew for the city, and as darkness fell, the Secret Service told West Wing staff that, save for an essential few, everyone had to leave the White House and go home.

At 6:01 p.m., Trump blasted out yet another tweet, which Twitter quickly deleted and which many in his orbit were particularly furious about, fearing he was further inflaming the still-tense situation.

“These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so ­unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long,” Trump wrote. “Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”


Thirteen minutes later, at 6:14 p.m., a perimeter was finally established around the Capitol. About 8 p.m., more than six hours after the initial breach, the Capitol was declared secure.

The following evening, on Thursday, Trump released another video, the closest advisers say he is likely to come to a concession speech.

“Congress has certified the results: A new administration will be inaugurated on January 20th,” Trump said in the video. “My focus now turns to ensuring a smooth, orderly, and seamless transition of power. This moment calls for healing and reconciliation.”

His calls for healing and reconciliation were more than a day too late, many aides said. Yet as Trump watched the media coverage of his video, he grew angry.

The president said he wished he hadn’t done it, a senior White House official said, because he feared that the calming words made him look weak.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by boglerdude » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:17 am

Maybe a stronger inheritance tax + ranked-choice voting could prevent another Trump
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:10 pm

https://www.distractify.com/p/bumble-online-dating-fbi


Women Are Matching With Capitol Rioters and Handing Their Pics to the FBI










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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm

this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm

this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff


Except that the public was forced to cooperate with the East German organization.

Conversely, in this case, these women are just doing their civic duty, capitalizing on rampant "Trump Stupidity".

In the midst of first exhibiting their stupidity by not taking advantage of being able to wear masks without being questioned....instead, they decide to NOT wear masks while committing felonies.

Compounding that stupidity....they take pictures and videos of themselves committing felonies and broadcast them to people they do not ever know!

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by SomeDude » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:01 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm
this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff
I don't understand why Trump hasn't pardoned the Jan 6 heroes yet. Isn't the theory that he incited it? Why isn't he pardoning them? Why is he hanging them out to dry? Or maybe he wasn't behind it, and it was staged and the people let in, allowing many good people to get caught up because the cops opened the doors as a pretext for this crackdown?

Regardless, he should pardon them ALL
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm
l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm
this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff
Except that the public was forced to cooperate with the East German organization.

Conversely, in this case, these women are just doing their civic duty, capitalizing on rampant "Trump Stupidity".

In the midst of first exhibiting their stupidity by not taking advantage of being able to wear masks without being questioned....instead, they decide to NOT wear masks while committing felonies.

Compounding that stupidity....they take pictures and videos of themselves committing felonies and broadcast them to people they do not ever know!
the German public wasn't forced, they were good communists and did it for "the party" because they were believers. who are never skeptical of the official narrative, and do things out of civic duty... most of what you are cheering for being done on the left right now is a soft version of the same...

scary totalitarian stuff... especially when the doers are "good civic minded people" who cant see the evil in it
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:53 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm

this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff


Except that the public was forced to cooperate with the East German organization.

Conversely, in this case, these women are just doing their civic duty, capitalizing on rampant "Trump Stupidity".

In the midst of first exhibiting their stupidity by not taking advantage of being able to wear masks without being questioned....instead, they decide to NOT wear masks while committing felonies.

Compounding that stupidity....they take pictures and videos of themselves committing felonies and broadcast them to people they do not ever know!

the German public wasn't forced, they were good communists and did it for "the party" because they were believers. who are never skeptical of the official narrative, and do things out of civic duty... most of what you are cheering for being done on the left right now is a soft version of the same...

scary totalitarian stuff... especially when the doers are "good civic minded people" who cant see the evil in it


Where is the evil in turning in people who were part of a mob that resulted in the direct killing of a member of the Capitol police? Who vandalized the Capitol? Who had full intent to cause harm to members of the government?

There is no "official narrative here". Exhibiting their gross "Trumpian stupidity" they've self-published to the world the extent of all their felonies.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:26 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:53 pm
l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:12 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm
l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm
this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff
Except that the public was forced to cooperate with the East German organization.

Conversely, in this case, these women are just doing their civic duty, capitalizing on rampant "Trump Stupidity".

In the midst of first exhibiting their stupidity by not taking advantage of being able to wear masks without being questioned....instead, they decide to NOT wear masks while committing felonies.

Compounding that stupidity....they take pictures and videos of themselves committing felonies and broadcast them to people they do not ever know!
the German public wasn't forced, they were good communists and did it for "the party" because they were believers. who are never skeptical of the official narrative, and do things out of civic duty... most of what you are cheering for being done on the left right now is a soft version of the same...

scary totalitarian stuff... especially when the doers are "good civic minded people" who cant see the evil in it
Where is the evil in turning in people who were part of a mob that resulted in the direct killing of a member of the Capitol police? Who vandalized the Capitol? Who had full intent to cause harm to members of the government?

There is no "official narrative here". Exhibiting their gross "Trumpian stupidity" they've self-published to the world the extent of all their felonies.
one - calling it a "MOB" is a loaded word and part of the disinformation propaganda campaign.
two this is not turning in actual footage of actual crimes being committed (an acceptable and honorable behavior)..
this is ruining or attempting to ruin peoples lives by exposing them as opposing the "party" narrative by protesting, there have been parents, off duty police , firemen and people from all walks of life who were in no way a Mob or Violent Vandalizing or Unruly, hundreds of thousands who showed up to exercise their Right to free speech - the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. who are being doxed for their beliefs...
yes it is evil

you are a big reader Vinny i would recommend reading (or rereading)
1984
animal farm
fahrenheit 451
brave new world.

if you can't see what is going on in the world right now, reflected in these books... i dont know what to say...
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:10 pm

Watch the movie The Lives Of Others.
But it could never happen here. We’re exceptional.
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:11 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:26 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:53 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:00 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:43 pm

this is how the east German stazi operated...
scary totalitarian stuff


Except that the public was forced to cooperate with the East German organization.

Conversely, in this case, these women are just doing their civic duty, capitalizing on rampant "Trump Stupidity".

In the midst of first exhibiting their stupidity by not taking advantage of being able to wear masks without being questioned....instead, they decide to NOT wear masks while committing felonies.

Compounding that stupidity....they take pictures and videos of themselves committing felonies and broadcast them to people they do not ever know!

the German public wasn't forced, they were good communists and did it for "the party" because they were believers. who are never skeptical of the official narrative, and do things out of civic duty... most of what you are cheering for being done on the left right now is a soft version of the same...

scary totalitarian stuff... especially when the doers are "good civic minded people" who cant see the evil in it


Where is the evil in turning in people who were part of a mob that resulted in the direct killing of a member of the Capitol police? Who vandalized the Capitol? Who had full intent to cause harm to members of the government?

There is no "official narrative here". Exhibiting their gross "Trumpian stupidity" they've self-published to the world the extent of all their felonies.
one - calling it a "MOB" is a loaded word and part of the disinformation propaganda campaign.
two this is not turning in actual footage of actual crimes being committed (an acceptable and honorable behavior)..
this is ruining or attempting to ruin peoples lives by exposing them as opposing the "party" narrative by protesting, there have been parents, off duty police , firemen and people from all walks of life who were in no way a Mob or Violent Vandalizing or Unruly, hundreds of thousands who showed up to exercise their Right to free speech - the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. who are being doxed for their beliefs...
yes it is evil

you are a big reader Vinny i would recommend reading (or rereading)
1984
animal farm
fahrenheit 451
brave new world.

if you can't see what is going on in the world right now, reflected in these books... i dont know what to say...


Just to be certain we are talking about the same thing....I am referring to the mob as all of those who physically entered the building...who were supporters of windows being broken....doors being broken...in other words...forcible entry.

Are we talking about the same thing?

When I was arrested for protesting the draft, I was part of a group of nearly 250 who were doing so.

All we did was sit in the hallways. We did not harm anyone or vandalize anything. Three times we were asked to leave. None of us left. Buses were brought down to arrest all of us to put us all in jail for several hours. None of us resisted the arrest or caused any harm to the arresting officers or anyone at the jail.

When I made up my mind to protest the draft I had been warned that there may well be arrests that day. Therefore I knew it was a full possibility that I'd be arrested for this. However, while knowing that I'd be arrested I had no idea of what the consequences would be of being arrested. Nonetheless I was willing to both accept the risk of being arrested and the consequent unknown repercussions of that arrest.

I found it striking that there were no buses brought to the Capitol last week to herd all those law breakers into buses to similarly arrest them and bring them to jail.

Makes one wonder if this was due to the difference of the politics of the group I was associated with versus the politics of last week's group of protesters.

Rereading what you wrote I note what you wrote at the end: "hundreds of thousands".

a. Were there really that many listening to Trump before they marched on that Capitol? I don't really know but I suspect there were not close to that many.

b. But that is not the group I am referring to. I am referring to the ones who are captured in either pictures or video in the act of committing felonies.

The actions of those people were so revulsive to so many that Trump set the record for receiving the most votes for Impeachment ever and, even worse for him, setting the record by far for the most of his own party voting for Impeachment.

My turn for not knowing what else to say...

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:11 pm


Just to be certain we are talking about the same thing....I am referring to the mob as all of those who physically entered the building...who were supporters of windows being broken....doors being broken...in other words...forcible entry.

Are we talking about the same thing?

When I was arrested for protesting the draft, I was part of a group of nearly 250 who were doing so.

All we did was sit in the hallways. We did not harm anyone or vandalize anything. Three times we were asked to leave. None of us left. Buses were brought down to arrest all of us to put us all in jail for several hours. None of us resisted the arrest or caused any harm to the arresting officers or anyone at the jail.

When I made up my mind to protest the draft I had been warned that there may well be arrests that day. Therefore I knew it was a full possibility that I'd be arrested for this. However, while knowing that I'd be arrested I had no idea of what the consequences would be of being arrested. Nonetheless I was willing to both accept the risk of being arrested and the consequent unknown repercussions of that arrest.

I found it striking that there were no buses brought to the Capitol last week to herd all those law breakers into buses to similarly arrest them and bring them to jail.

Makes one wonder if this was due to the difference of the politics of the group I was associated with versus the politics of last week's group of protesters.

Rereading what you wrote I note what you wrote at the end: "hundreds of thousands".

a. Were there really that many listening to Trump before they marched on that Capitol? I don't really know but I suspect there were not close to that many.

b. But that is not the group I am referring to. I am referring to the ones who are captured in either pictures or video in the act of committing felonies.

The actions of those people were so revulsive to so many that Trump set the record for receiving the most votes for Impeachment ever and, even worse for him, setting the record by far for the most of his own party voting for Impeachment.

My turn for not knowing what else to say...
they are posting videos and getting people who were just there (at the protest) canceled, that is the type of videos/doxing that is getting put out. evil
security footage of crime and supporting cell phone footage is a different story, i have no problem with criminals being identified or arrested.
pay attention to the protests that happened this summer and how they were characterized and how none of them were being outed or canceled.
pay attention to how they were doing far far worse damage violence vandalism (robbery rape murder) and they weren't being arrested or identified..
the actions of those people are universal considered revulsive and yet ... crickets...

set yourself up, and do a dystopian "great books" reading marathon, and then take another look at the events that are unfolding... who knows you might see some things through a new lens..


*"hundreds of thousands" i have no idea i just wrote a number..
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:35 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:24 pm


they are posting videos and getting people who were just there (at the protest) canceled, that is the type of videos/doxing that is getting put out. evil
security footage of crime and supporting cell phone footage is a different story, i have no problem with criminals being identified or arrested.
pay attention to the protests that happened this summer and how they were characterized and how none of them were being outed or canceled.
pay attention to how they were doing far far worse damage violence vandalism (robbery rape murder) and they weren't being arrested or identified..
the actions of those people are universal considered revulsive and yet ... crickets...

set yourself up, and do a dystopian "great books" reading marathon, and then take another look at the events that are unfolding... who knows you might see some things through a new lens..


*"hundreds of thousands" i have no idea i just wrote a number..



I just read this in the Rickards book...


"Over eleven thousand protesters and looters were arrested and more than twenty-one died as a direct result of the riots."

That does not seem to support that there were no consequences to their actions.

What was the catalyst for all that happened this summer? Yet another injustice perpetrated upon a black person. That lit the fire. The same way the assassination of the ArchDuke lit the flame that started WW I. Just one incident finally set it off.

What was the incident that led to last week's violence?

The sustained two month work of one person (along with all his usual enables and acquiesce / silence from all the "ends justify the means" crowd). That was on top of his nearly four years of priming his followers by pandering to their worst instincts.

Violence added on to protest is generally not the most effective method to bring about change. Criminal behavior should always be prosecuted.

My lens does is not comprised of the end of the world is near thinking, that it is all one big conspiracy, they are all out to get us, the government is generally ineffectual except that that they have extraordinary powers to control all of it. None of that is in my world view.

Maybe some of it is yours. That will lead you to interpret events differently than myself and to applaud or criticize the reactions of both governments and individual citizens to those events.

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:29 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:35 pm


My lens does is not comprised of the end of the world is near thinking, that it is all one big conspiracy, they are all out to get us, the government is generally ineffectual except that that they have extraordinary powers to control all of it. None of that is in my world view.



end of the world thinking and conspiracy theory's is not what dystopian literature is about....
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 am

l82start wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:29 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:35 pm



My lens does is not comprised of the end of the world is near thinking, that it is all one big conspiracy, they are all out to get us, the government is generally ineffectual except that that they have extraordinary powers to control all of it. None of that is in my world view.




end of the world thinking and conspiracy theory's is not what dystopian literature is about....


Do you agree with this definition: relating to or denoting an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one.


It's been my experience that that type of thinking is also oftentimes associated with both end of the world thinking and belief in conspiracy theories.

I was also making a position statement of where I stand, wherein I don't embrace any of that type of thinking.

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:15 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 am


Do you agree with this definition: relating to or denoting an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one.


It's been my experience that that type of thinking is also oftentimes associated with both end of the world thinking and belief in conspiracy theories.

I was also making a position statement of where I stand, wherein I don't embrace any of that type of thinking.
no, the novels i am recommending are (formerly) fictional accounts of how human nature and ill advised political philosophy lead to an "unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one." i am neither an end of the world'er or a conspiracy theorist. nor do i think understanding the reality's of what a descent into dystopia looks like leads to that kind of thinking... i recommend them as a vaccination against the propaganda, trickery and corruption that leads to believing in and supporting these types of failings of human nature and the ill advised political philosophy's that lead to dystopia..
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:59 am

l82start wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:15 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 am



Do you agree with this definition: relating to or denoting an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one.


It's been my experience that that type of thinking is also oftentimes associated with both end of the world thinking and belief in conspiracy theories.

I was also making a position statement of where I stand, wherein I don't embrace any of that type of thinking.


no, the novels i am recommending are (formerly) fictional accounts of how human nature and ill advised political philosophy lead to an "unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one." i am neither an end of the world'er or a conspiracy theorist. nor do i think understanding the reality's of what a descent into dystopia looks like leads to that kind of thinking... i recommend them as a vaccination against the propaganda, trickery and corruption that leads to believing in and supporting these types of failings of human nature and the ill advised political philosophy's that lead to dystopia..


I did read The Mandibles...

And, I believe I've read all the old books you listed. Animal Farm several times.

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:20 pm

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08SKK358D

COMPLETE LIST OF ANTIFA MEMBERS IN CAPITOL BUILDING RIOT Kindle Edition
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:39 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:24 pm


security footage of crime and supporting cell phone footage is a different story, i have no problem with criminals being identified or arrested.



How does your statement above apply to this? Support or against?

Vinny


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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by l82start » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:48 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:39 pm
l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:24 pm

security footage of crime and supporting cell phone footage is a different story, i have no problem with criminals being identified or arrested.
How does your statement above apply to this? Support or against?

Vinny


Capture.JPG
in the capitol building is a crime ...
around the capitol is doxing/threatening people who are exercising their legal right to petition the government for redress of grievances. and is tyrannical and evil...

very clear difference .... can you see it?
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:13 pm

l82start wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:48 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:39 pm

l82start wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:24 pm


security footage of crime and supporting cell phone footage is a different story, i have no problem with criminals being identified or arrested.



How does your statement above apply to this? Support or against?

Vinny


Capture.JPG
in the capitol building is a crime ...
around the capitol is doxing/threatening people who are exercising their legal right to petition the government for redress of grievances. and is tyrannical and evil...

very clear difference .... can you see it?


I see a clear difference between:

A. Protesters obeying set up boundaries / committing no acts of violence

B. Those who pushed aside and attacked police in their quest to get inside the Capitol

Your turn to clarify precisely what you mean by "around the capitol". No crimes unless they were able to successfully make it into the Capitol?

I don't think anyone wants to punish group A. No one is attempting to turn them in. Showing pictures or videos of them would result in a conviction of what? Standing and listening. Maybe shouting some response. No crimes there.

Instead, we are after the real life firefighter who was caught holding a fire extinguisher to use to batter on the police. Any, objections with anyone coming forward with pictures or videos of him doing so while "around the capitol" but not in it?

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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:45 pm

l82start wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:48 pm


in the capitol building is a crime ...
around the capitol is doxing/threatening people who are exercising their legal right to petition the government for redress of grievances. and is tyrannical and evil...

very clear difference .... can you see it?
[/quote]

Specifically asking about these people. Not yet in the Capitol building. Around the Capitol.

Crime or no crime?

Vinny


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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:45 pm
l82start wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:48 pm
in the capitol building is a crime ...
around the capitol is doxing/threatening people who are exercising their legal right to petition the government for redress of grievances. and is tyrannical and evil...

very clear difference .... can you see it?
Specifically asking about these people. Not yet in the Capitol building. Around the Capitol.

Crime or no crime?

Vinny


Capture.JPG
[/quote]

Just do a wiki search. That should answer the question. ;)

Another good principle is to ask, what am I going to do with the information? If it is nothing that I can do anything with, don’t waste any time or energy to find out anything more.
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 pm

“Whatever one sows, that will he also reap” (Gal. 6:7)

Vinny


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01 ... dency.html

END-TIMES 6:36 P.M.
Trump Is on the Verge of Losing Everything
By Jonathan Chait



At noon on January 20, Trump will be in desperate shape. His business is floundering, his partners are fleeing, his loans are delinquent, prosecutors will be coming after him, and the legal impunity he enjoyed through his office will be gone. He will be walking naked into a cold and friendless world. What appeared to be a brilliant strategy for escaping consequences was merely a tactic for putting them off. The bill is coming due.
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Re: Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:59 am

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:54 pm
“Whatever one sows, that will he also reap” (Gal. 6:7)

Vinny


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01 ... dency.html

END-TIMES 6:36 P.M.
Trump Is on the Verge of Losing Everything
By Jonathan Chait



At noon on January 20, Trump will be in desperate shape. His business is floundering, his partners are fleeing, his loans are delinquent, prosecutors will be coming after him, and the legal impunity he enjoyed through his office will be gone. He will be walking naked into a cold and friendless world. What appeared to be a brilliant strategy for escaping consequences was merely a tactic for putting them off. The bill is coming due.
Who in the world is Jonathan Chait? I know all the best opinion writers and I have never heard of him. Was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I read this on Wikipedia:
In February 2016, Chait wrote a piece for New York magazine titled "Liberals Should Support a Trump Republican Nomination," in which he predicted that a Trump presidency would develop similarly to the governorship of Arnold Schwarzenegger in California (who, like Trump, was a celebrity who became a Republican politician without any public service experience).[19] In 2019, The Outline selected this piece as one of the "worst takes of the 2010s", opining that "Chait's immensely confident take [...] is a humiliating crystallization of the wrongheaded thinking that propelled [Trump] to the White House."[20]
He’s obviously not very good at predictions, or even opinions. Disqualified.

::)
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