The Secession Thread

[Hal]

I thought all states in the "United States of America" had the right to leave the union (even if Lincoln didn't agree).
No issues from a Aussies viewpoint except for

1. It would have to be a large majority vote to leave in the state. ie NOT 51% to 49%
2. Some mutual defence pact may need to be discussed with the remaining states. Probably best to keep your Military intact.

Out of curiosity, on a practical level, are states in the US free to set the laws they want? Or is the US centrally controlled and the states have to do what they are told? eg Texas says fine, you can own machine guns and the Federal Gov't overrides them.

ps: If you succeed, let me know and I may emigrate. It's illegal to have even a cricket bat for self defence here

[Tortoise]

As the events of 2020 have made abundantly clear (Covid-1984 and the election debacle), I don't think state constitutions or the federal Constitution hold much power anymore. If constitutions were ever the guiding political/philosophical principles in the US, they no longer are.

What matters now is raw political power and, to a lesser extent, popular support. That being the case, I don't think it really matters anymore what the state or federal constitutions say about secession or anything else. They are nice documents, but they are no longer the law of the land.

If one state (such as Texas) attempts to officially secede, I suspect it will expand into at least one or two other states joining in. But as Tom pointed out, the political polarization between urban and rural areas would complicate any state's secession.

Another possibility might be a kind of "soft secession" where no states officially secede, but large groups of people around the country attempt to unofficially secede by forming "autonomous zones" that refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the federal government. Like CHAZ, except less retarded and larpy.

[Maddy]

What you're describing is a republican form of government. Whoulda thought it would be that simple?

[Tortoise]

I'm intrigued, Maddy. A republican form of government has at least some amount of central authority, doesn't it?

If a group of people forms an "autonomous zone" in which the republic's central authority isn't recognized at all, is that still a republican form of government?

[glennds]

Austin is mostly liberal, those people will be pissed. I doubt they can fence off that city and let them ban guns and ban freedom, just for themselves, so the liberals may all leave, who knows.

What thoughts about secession does the forum have?

Then maybe if Austin is pissed enough, it will just secede from Texas.

Except of course for given Austin neighborhoods that might not be so liberal, in which case those neighborhoods could secede from Austin.

Except it's possible that a few homes in one of these neighborhoods may be liberal, in which case they could secede from the neighborhood.

[Mark Leavy]

The answer lies in the diminishing credibility of Nation States and the increasing dominance of multi-national corporations.
As always, Snow Crash lays out the details of the future. Franchulates.

In Snow Crash, a franchulate is a cross between a franchise and a consulate. For this to make sense, a brief description of the political system of Snow Crash must be given.

Most national governments have gone bankrupt or are not capable of governing. Thus, private orporations have taken their place, providing quasigovernmental roles for a fee. Within the confines of the corporations property, they act with governmental powers.

The Franchulate is the property where the business acts as a government entity. Most franchulates also provide goods or services, and also allow citizens to stop there for refuge (and in Snow Crash, refuge is quite often needed).

While the main requirement for being part of a citizen of a quasi-government corporation is paying cash, there are other requirements. Many of these are racial. To be a citizen of Metazania or New South Africa, you must be black or white respectivly.

The franchulates, from what is described in the book, can stretch from a single building to several dozen city blocks or more.

Some of the other prominent franchulates belong to NovaSicilia (which belongs to the Mafia and specializes in delivering pizza); Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong, which specializes in information and techonology and doesn't allow guns inside the gates; and The Reverend Wayne's Pearly Gates, which is a nation-corporation based on speaking in tongues.

Within a square mile or so, all of these franchulates may be in business, which allows some helpful services for their citizens. For example, if a citizen of Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong is being chased by some armed racists from New South Africa, they could duck into the gates of Greater Hong Kong, where guns are not allowed, and a robotic security force backs up this edict.

I'm imagining something similar to the currently existing Margaritaville Village burbclave for Tom. Except completely different and with more guns.

[I Shrugged]

Mrs. Shrugged and I are working on a move to Tejas this year. It’s for family reasons but I also feel like we’ll be in a good place if/when the US splits.

[SomeDude]

If biden gets in, and states seceed and my beloved FL isn't one of them.....I'm moving

[ahhrunforthehills]

If everybody is ignoring their constitutions, state lines might not matter. Check out this guy's map:



Note that it says "at its outset". Theoretically, this would be the map before the carnage.

[SomeDude]

I love it, west central FL in the free zone woot woot!

[Hal]

And you can send your convicts to Australia! No more Chinese coming here so we have to keep the housing bubble going

Ahhh, Just like the good ol'days....

[doodle]

It would be inhumane to send our convicts to the communist country of Australia with their gun control laws and national healthcare system.

In all seriousness, has anyone here watched the documentary on the Osho cult on netflix and their commune Rajneeshpuram that they built in eastern Oregon? Pretty impressive until it all went downhill. Why would it be so hard for a couple hundred like minded individuals to carve out a small lichtenstein sized block of land somewhere out in northern nevada and create their own experimental society? You don't need to have entire states seceed to get something underway. You could basically build your own society today.

[Hal]

It would be inhumane to send our convicts to the communist country of Australia with their gun control laws and national healthcare system.

Surely you can't be questioning Chairman Dan
https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Daniel_Andrews

In all seriousness, has anyone here watched the documentary on the Osho cult on netflix and their commune Rajneeshpuram that they built in eastern Oregon? Pretty impressive until it all went downhill. Why would it be so hard for a couple hundred like minded individuals to carve out a small lichtenstein sized block of land somewhere out in northern nevada and create their own experimental society? You don't need to have entire states seceed to get something underway. You could basically build your own society today.

You are correct. Visited a few permaculture communities in my time and they seem to work.
https://www.ic.org/directory/listings/
However if times get tough, I could see the land tax becoming impossible to pay. Happened here in the 30's.
Maybe you would be back in the "No taxation without representation" scenario.

[doodle]

It would be inhumane to send our convicts to the communist country of Australia with their gun control laws and national healthcare system.

Surely you can't be questioning Chairman Dan
https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Daniel_Andrews

In all seriousness, has anyone here watched the documentary on the Osho cult on netflix and their commune Rajneeshpuram that they built in eastern Oregon? Pretty impressive until it all went downhill. Why would it be so hard for a couple hundred like minded individuals to carve out a small lichtenstein sized block of land somewhere out in northern nevada and create their own experimental society? You don't need to have entire states seceed to get something underway. You could basically build your own society today.

You are correct. Visited a few permaculture communities in my time and they seem to work.
https://www.ic.org/directory/listings/
However if times get tough, I could see the land tax becoming impossible to pay. Happened here in the 30's.
Maybe you would be back in the "No taxation without representation" scenario.

There are at least two places I have mentioned here in past posts that exist already as so called autonomous zones within the United States...to the extent that they are quite remote and are basically left alone. I've driven through northern Nevada...it can be beautiful in places but it's very uninhabited. I would think a hundred square miles of land out there wouldn't cost a whole lot. If israel can farm the negev desert, I'm pretty sure you could make something out of what you have up there. I'd support a true libertarian go at creating a society out there. I'd even donate to such an undertaking out of sheer curiosity.

I imagine there are also locations in texas (another state with vast expanses of empty land) that would allow for a similar undertaking if Nevada isn't suitable. If members legally incorporated their own township and then created their own monetary system they could avoid most taxes. The land tax in either of those areas would be negligible I'd imagine.

[Mountaineer]

Not sure, but I think the Citadel went belly up. Could not find anything current about it with a quick search.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker ... he-citadel

[Mark Leavy]

The answer lies in the diminishing credibility of Nation States and the increasing dominance of multi-national corporations.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, we have reached a turning point in the credibility of the US governmental system.
Twitter and Facebook have banned The President of the United States.

Note, this wasn't done by any of the three governmental branches or via any constitutional process or any public referendum. Those groups and methods are now demonstrated to be powerless and feckless. Completely without credibility. As, is now, also the office of the presidency.

Multi-nationals are no longer hiding the authority they wield. The façade of government authority will only grow shabbier.

[doodle]

The answer lies in the diminishing credibility of Nation States and the increasing dominance of multi-national corporations.

Multi-nationals are no longer hiding the authority they wield. The façade of government authority will only grow shabbier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the scenario you advocate for? Private corporations governing our world? Isn't it better that the veil of government is lifted and we just let these corporations have at it? I mean, we can all vote with our dollars now and it will be a perfect libertarian paradise. Perhaps the capitol should have called Brinks and Loomis instead of the national guard?

[yankees60]

The answer lies in the diminishing credibility of Nation States and the increasing dominance of multi-national corporations.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, we have reached a turning point in the credibility of the US governmental system.
Twitter and Facebook have banned The President of the United States.

Note, this wasn't done by any of the three governmental branches or via any constitutional process or any public referendum. Those groups and methods are now demonstrated to be powerless and feckless. Completely without credibility. As, is now, also the office of the presidency.

Multi-nationals are no longer hiding the authority they wield. The façade of government authority will only grow shabbier.

I heard today that Trump has his Twitter back?

[Mark Leavy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the scenario you advocate for? Private corporations governing our world? Isn't it better that the veil of government is lifted and we just let these corporations have at it? I mean, we can all vote with our dollars now and it will be a perfect libertarian paradise. Perhaps the capitol should have called Brinks and Loomis instead of the national guard?

You have me confused with someone else. I don't advocate for it. I try to live between the cracks of whatever system is in place. The key to doing that successfully is being honest about what the actual system is. Whatever it is.

I do think Blackwater would have handled it better than the capital police did.

I heard today that Trump has his Twitter back?

Exactly. And by what authority? By Jack's good graces. Nothing more or less.

[yankees60]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the scenario you advocate for? Private corporations governing our world? Isn't it better that the veil of government is lifted and we just let these corporations have at it? I mean, we can all vote with our dollars now and it will be a perfect libertarian paradise. Perhaps the capitol should have called Brinks and Loomis instead of the national guard?

You have me confused with someone else. I don't advocate for it. I try to live between the cracks of whatever system is in place. The key to doing that successfully is being honest about what the actual system is. Whatever it is.

I do think Blackwater would have handled it better than the capital police did.

Could anyone anywhere have handled it worst? This was not a crowd that was rampaging with weapons. Did anyone look at the videos? It looked like a bunch of us's there!

Did you observe the lead guy? He was just looking for the one police that was there to give him the slightest resistance but that police guy just kept backing up. If at least five police put up a line in front of that "mob" I think the mob would have stopped dead in their tracks.

The performance of the Capitol police was incomprehensible particularly in the light of how they treated that one woman in a car several years ago. Where they immediately clearly out a large section of the outside area and then shot her dead.

This was an under performance of historic proportions.

[SomeDude]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the scenario you advocate for? Private corporations governing our world? Isn't it better that the veil of government is lifted and we just let these corporations have at it? I mean, we can all vote with our dollars now and it will be a perfect libertarian paradise. Perhaps the capitol should have called Brinks and Loomis instead of the national guard?

You have me confused with someone else. I don't advocate for it. I try to live between the cracks of whatever system is in place. The key to doing that successfully is being honest about what the actual system is. Whatever it is.

I do think Blackwater would have handled it better than the capital police did.

Could anyone anywhere have handled it worst? This was not a crowd that was rampaging with weapons. Did anyone look at the videos? It looked like a bunch of us's there!

Did you observe the lead guy? He was just looking for the one police that was there to give him the slightest resistance but that police guy just kept backing up. If at least five police put up a line in front of that "mob" I think the mob would have stopped dead in their tracks.

The performance of the Capitol police was incomprehensible particularly in the light of how they treated that one woman in a car several years ago. Where they immediately clearly out a large section of the outside area and then shot her dead.

This was an under performance of historic proportions.

Vinny, this is possibly my favorite post of yours of all time. The media is trying to paint this group of people as a violent mob. They were waving American flags, not burning them, and not burning anything else.

The police were clearly given directions to let them in. The purpose being to STOP the arguments of the senators and reps opposing Biden. Even if you think the election was legit, it's easy to see this was orchestrated to stop any discussion, just like all the courts dismissing the evidence without review, the news media repeating that there is no evidence, the tech companies deleting videos or channels that discuss it, or even use the word fraud.

For those who think the election was legit, this is worst case scenario for you. Now Biden has zero chance of legitimacy. Even Obama had legitimacy.

if you throught the election was legit you should have supported an examination of the evidence. If you thought it was fraudulent you should have supported an examination.

Now we have a huge mess and it's going to get messier. Half the country realizes elections do not matter and no branch of government now or ever will represent them.

If Trump is the cause of half the country losing faith in the voting system......good. The irony is I has totally lost faith in it until he restored it. I didn't vote for McCain or Romney because I knew they were traitor RHINOs. Then this blowhard comes along I figure what the hell..........

[doodle]

Mark wrote:

I do think Blackwater would have handled it better than the capital police did.

I agree, which is why we need more training and higher standards for police. Blackwater Ops don't hire people with high school diplomas, give them a few months of classroom training, hand them a gun and expect them to do what they do.

[Cortopassi]

The police were clearly given directions to let them in. The purpose being to STOP the arguments of the senators and reps opposing Biden. Even if you think the election was legit, it's easy to see this was orchestrated to stop any discussion, just like all the courts dismissing the evidence without review, the news media repeating that there is no evidence, the tech companies deleting videos or channels that discuss it, or even use the word fraud.

if you throught the election was legit you should have supported an examination of the evidence. If you thought it was fraudulent you should have supported an examination.

Oh, God, this is the same conspiracy that my buddy is emailing me about incessantly right now. It must be the latest thing in the alt-right world right now.

They were JUST ABOUT to FINALLY reveal all the evidence they've apparently BENN HOLDING back to the last minute to finally thwart Biden and give Donald his rightful second term.

But those DAMN Antifa agitators that were BUSED IN stormed the Capitol and screwed it all up.

That about right?

How about everyone (media, social media and many politicians) finally, in the last couple months of a lying shit show presidency finally have gotten sick of it and saw no negative effects of finally breaking ranks, calling a lie a lie, shutting down his feeds, whatever. Dude is going to be gone in 13 days. He's a short timer.

----------

And really, WHAT evidence? If virtually every court in the land did not believe there was enough evidence to support a case, "I" am supposed to believe they are part of this grand conspiracy and not letting this evidence get shown?

[yankees60]

The answer lies in the diminishing credibility of Nation States and the increasing dominance of multi-national corporations.

Multi-nationals are no longer hiding the authority they wield. The façade of government authority will only grow shabbier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the scenario you advocate for? Private corporations governing our world? Isn't it better that the veil of government is lifted and we just let these corporations have at it? I mean, we can all vote with our dollars now and it will be a perfect libertarian paradise. Perhaps the capitol should have called Brinks and Loomis instead of the national guard?

Great response!!! Seems to me the logical conclusion to what I read here for what many advocate in place of government.

[SomeDude]

And really, WHAT evidence? If virtually every court in the land did not believe there was enough evidence to support a case, "I" am supposed to believe they are part of this grand conspiracy and not letting this evidence get shown?

You're not interested in the evidence Cort. At this point......anyone who doesn't know how obvious the fraud was will never know because they don't want to know. if you wanted to see the evidence it's all out there despite massive amounts of censorship. If you wanted to see the evidence why would you cheer when the courts dismiss it and Supremes and Congress dismiss it? One side wants to present it publically, that's all. They want to present it publically because that would have put an end to this. Now it will never end.

Mind if I ask you a question? Why do you think the observers were kicked out of those few cities in the key swing states right before the landslides for Trump were erased? Why do you think they kicked out the observers and boarded up windows and counted for days after, in some cases more than a week until they had counted just enough for old Joe?

If you don't think there was a conspiracy to defraud the voters in those states with criminal action.....you are hopeless.

And this post is a waste of time I wish I could get back.