How Do You Balance Work And Leisure?

[Smith1776]

Just as the title suggests. How do you balance your work and leisure time? They both have value. They are both necessary and intrinsic parts of the human experience.

How do you personally handle this? Do you have work you enjoy so much you don't need leisure time? Do you have a set schedule and time budget?

When I'm working I keep getting this nagging feeling I shouldn't be so uptight and enjoy life a bit more. When I'm in leisure mode I feel guilty and get that nagging feeling I should be working. I often can't seem to enjoy myself in either mode.

What's your guys' perspective?

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[Mark Leavy]

At your age, Smith. There is no leisure. You are tech savvy and math savvy and people savvy.

While you are at work, keep looking for a higher paying, higher responsibility job where you can exploit your talents. There is no downside these days to finding a new job every 6 to 12 months. And you always get a better raise and learn newer skills from a new job than you do from staying in your current job.

Very quickly you will be working at something world changing. Immerse yourself in it. Be better, wiser, and more consistently dependable. No balance. Dominate. Balance is mediocrity.

Then at some point, you will wake up and find yourself on top of the world. While still young and powerful.

That is not mediocrity.

[Mark Leavy]

There is a common refrain that if you haven't achieved genius by the age of 30, you will never do so.

I don't believe that is true. It should be "If you haven't achieved genius by the time you are in a committed relationship, you will never do so."

[Cortopassi]

That cartoon is just about right for me.

And I agree with Mark's second post. Except for me it wasn't the relationship, it was the first kid. And the change to single income and responsibility.

[Tortoise]

And I agree with Mark's second post. Except for me it wasn't the relationship, it was the first kid. And the change to single income and responsibility.

This rings true. Now that my first child was born five months ago, I feel like my age of conquest is over and I’ve started a very different new phase of family responsibility.

[Libertarian666]

There is a common refrain that if you haven't achieved genius by the age of 30, you will never do so.

I don't believe that is true. It should be "If you haven't achieved genius by the time you are in a committed relationship, you will never do so."

I guess I'm hosed then. :-)

[Smith1776]

It's an interesting debate. I'm currently inclined to believe that a pareto-esque split between work and leisure is likely to be appropriate: 80% work and 20% leisure. Ideally of course you want work that you enjoy so that often it can feel as good as leisure. I think the small leisure component can inspire one with great ideas and also allow greater perspective. My best creative ideas for instance have often come to me during semi-meditative states of going for a walk or otherwise stepping away from work.

As some of you know, I lost a few years of personal development when I was in my late teens and early 20s due to illness. I feel like I'm 4 to 5 years younger (or behind) where I really am. That partly contributes to the guilt feeling when I am taking breaks from work. I always feel like I need to do more to "catch up".

And yeah, my goal is to be done school by April of 2021 with this credential and be fully established in industry within the year.

[Mark Leavy]

It's an interesting debate. I'm currently inclined to believe that a pareto-esque split between work and leisure is likely to be appropriate: 80% work and 20% leisure. Ideally of course you want work that you enjoy so that often it can feel as good as leisure. I think the small leisure component can inspire one with great ideas and also allow greater perspective. My best creative ideas for instance have often come to me during semi-meditative states of going for a walk or otherwise stepping away from work.

Maybe that is your genius, Smith.

[pp4me]

Never had much of an inner debate about it that I can recall.

Leisure was just the default mode. Had to kick myself in the ass to work.

Same is true in retirement actually. I just do a lot less kicking.

[Mountaineer]

Re. the title question: Correctly of course.

After graduation from college, I worked for pay for a third of a century. I've only been retired for a fifth of a century. Have a ways to go to achieve perfect balance.

[Cortopassi]

Passive income! Get yourself a positive cash flow situation from a business you own, real estate or something else. I currently work about 12 hours per week but still have lots of income from when others are producing at my office. It's awesome.

You sound like a spambot!

[WiseOne]

Passive income! Get yourself a positive cash flow situation from a business you own, real estate or something else. I currently work about 12 hours per week but still have lots of income from when others are producing at my office. It's awesome.

Yep, as in....read up about FIRE and make that happen!

There is a natural life cycle at work here. In my 20s and 30s, I was all about working hard and playing hard practically nonstop. Then sometime around age 40, that started to shift and I increasingly valued quiet time at home. After age 50, I started to think of work as an intrusion that I wanted to limit, in order to protect my precious personal time. As time has gone on, I find personal time is harder and harder to get enough of. Of course, the fact that work keeps getting more and more onerous and less and less rewarding, just because of trends in the American workplace and culture, has taken a toll as well.

The COVID lockdowns, as much as I can't take pleasure in them knowing how destructive they are for most people, has been an unparalleled blessing for me. I love love love being home all day, and able to structure my own hours however I like. Pugchief, 12 hours a week sounds like a dream though. I would give anything to go down to half time work, and still do it from home. I'm thinking to start with a family leave the moment that the lockdowns end and we have to go back to the usual office schedule.

[doodle]

I just worked my ass off until my mid 30s and learned the lesson that I think all philosophers eventually stumble onto which is that ultimately the simple pleasures which cost almost nothing are more than enough. Learn to find joy in walks with your dog or partner, exercise, learning, music, conversation, art etc and you won't need much to sustain a lifetime of endless exploration and activity. Cultivate the right persective and everything whether difficult or easy simply becomes another experience. If you find work that you are passionate about and is rewarding financially, that is fantastic..run with it. Otherwise, it's important to realize that there is a limit as to how much influence your bank balance has on your overall satisfaction and happiness in life.

These are just things I've discovered. I rather enjoy poverty. I prefer diving into dumpsters and building my furniture out of things that I find rather than shopping at a furniture stores. Last night I rode my bike 5 miles through the snow with my dog to pick up something at the hardware store. It was freezing and dark and difficult. It was a mission. It was challenging. But for some reason it made me feel alive. I'm not sure I would get the same experience driving my heated car there and back. At least the hot shower and my bed wouldn't have felt nearly as satisfying afterwards.

[Cortopassi]

Passive income! Get yourself a positive cash flow situation from a business you own, real estate or something else. I currently work about 12 hours per week but still have lots of income from when others are producing at my office. It's awesome.

Pugchief, 12 hours a week sounds like a dream though. I would give anything to go down to half time work, and still do it from home. I'm thinking to start with a family leave the moment that the lockdowns end and we have to go back to the usual office schedule.

You might want to propose it to your employer. If they value you and you phrase it with an indirect threat that you might just leave if they don't accommodate you, you might get what you want. My sister, who was a VP at a major corporation, asked to cut back to 30 hours (3x10 instead of 5x8) when her kids were younger so she could be a room mom, etc. They took away her title and some compensation, but she got the reduction in hours and still got full benefits. Can't hurt to ask. Maybe use caring for your mother as an excuse.

I've been on and off discussing with my employer to cut back to 4 days a week. 32 hours, still full time. I would be happy with a 20% paycut in exchange.

Timing is to do it starting this year. I have enough vacation that I took a lot of Wednesday's off this year, which was awsome.

[Mark Leavy]

I've been on and off discussing with my employer to cut back to 4 days a week. 32 hours, still full time. I would be happy with a 20% paycut in exchange.

Timing is to do it starting this year. I have enough vacation that I took a lot of Wednesday's off this year, which was awsome.

I totally agree with the effort - and it stands a good chance of working. I tried that in my late twenties and was shocked that it worked. The downside is that you may be quietly removed from any advancement opportunities.

A guy I worked with at Intel corporation in Portland Oregon one time asked to be moved to Bend Oregon where he could hike, kayak and ski. Intel established a remote office just for him. Smart move on their part, he is a genius.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is a bad deal for your employer to cut you back to 32 hours per week and still have to give you full time benefits.

Not necessarily a deal killer, but if you were willing to drop to 30 hours and lose benefits, it would be a lot easier for them to say ‘yes’.

[yankees60]

You should have been a dentist. I never worked a single Wednesday in 36 years of practice.

I remember years and years and years ago that used to be the practice for doctors. Is that still the same for doctors?

I never realized that was also the case for dentists. Is that the case for all dentists? What did you do with your Wednesdays? Could you have worked on Wednesday if you chose to? I assume so, that is was not against the law? Did it cause you to work more hours each day the rest of the week to make up for work not done on those Wednesdays?

Vinny

[yankees60]

What would be even more optimal is for you do what I've been doing for quite a while. Have a 30 or so hour employee job with the full-time benefits. Then also have your own business on the side wherein you charge a far higher hourly rate than you get paid as an employee. Not only do you get the far higher hourly rate but you get to take as tax deductions plenty of things you are now already paying for but could now be viewed as a necessary business expense.

Of course that would cause you to work more than the 32 hours a week...but most likely still less than 40. The downside is if your side business grew so much that it required you to, at some times of the year, work a lot of hours in a given week on top of your regular job. That causes certain stresses. But you are being well paid for it. The way I always viewed it was that I was putting money in the bank that was paying for future days off. And, since I was getting a highly hourly rate of pay I was buying more of those future days off at a higher rate.

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

I tend to work for a while, then take some time off, then work more.

When I was younger, just out of college, I didn't take any long breaks, just ~7 straight years of working. After I sold the house I rehabbed while working my last job, I fucked off for about a year, tried out a new line of work for a while, didn't like it, took another year and a half or so off, then found a gig I liked, did that for a year, took a few months off, and now I'm on a new job that seems pretty cool.

Obviously you should be aiming for FI as soon as possible. I know the trend is to think about "bare bones" FI and "comfortable" FI. In my mind, what people think of as "bare bones" is more like ERE-levels of spending. I think the "fuck you" level is when you've got enough wealth to perpetually rent a room and eat lentils. When you can count on never being homeless or starving everything seems more leisurely and stress-free.

I'd suggest only going balls to the wall on work that is really important to you or where you're compensated very well, otherwise clock out for the day and don't think about it. Try to get one type or the other. Being a poorly-paid manager is the worst

Don't have a long commute unless a) you're being paid for it or b) it's on a bus/train where you can read or type or something.

[Hal]

Otherwise, it's important to realize that there is a limit as to how much influence your bank balance has on your overall satisfaction and happiness in life.

Last night I rode my bike 5 miles through the snow with my dog to pick up something at the hardware store. It was freezing and dark and difficult. It was a mission. It was challenging. But for some reason it made me feel alive.

How did your dog feel about it?
On a serious note, you may enjoy spending some time here. https://zenretreat.com
My brother has been there multiple times and found it helpful. Monk used to be a businessman.

[doodle]

I tend to work for a while, then take some time off, then work more.

When I was younger, just out of college, I didn't take any long breaks, just ~7 straight years of working. After I sold the house I rehabbed while working my last job, I fucked off for about a year, tried out a new line of work for a while, didn't like it, took another year and a half or so off, then found a gig I liked, did that for a year, took a few months off, and now I'm on a new job that seems pretty cool.

Obviously you should be aiming for FI as soon as possible. I know the trend is to think about "bare bones" FI and "comfortable" FI. In my mind, what people think of as "bare bones" is more like ERE-levels of spending. I think the "fuck you" level is when you've got enough wealth to perpetually rent a room and eat lentils. When you can count on never being homeless or starving everything seems more leisurely and stress-free.

I'd suggest only going balls to the wall on work that is really important to you or where you're compensated very well, otherwise clock out for the day and don't think about it. Try to get one type or the other. Being a poorly-paid manager is the worst

Don't have a long commute unless a) you're being paid for it or b) it's on a bus/train where you can read or type or something.

Agree with everything Kriegs said. My entire working life I've never commuteed more than 5 minutes by bike. People who commute an hour each way are adding 500 hundred hours..(almost 3 months of work to their work week ) plus the added gas and vehicle expenses. Not worth it. Better to pay more if necessary to live close to work. Put in the extra hours there and get paid for it.

Otherwise, it's important to realize that there is a limit as to how much influence your bank balance has on your overall satisfaction and happiness in life.

Last night I rode my bike 5 miles through the snow with my dog to pick up something at the hardware store. It was freezing and dark and difficult. It was a mission. It was challenging. But for some reason it made me feel alive.

How did your dog feel about it?
On a serious note, you may enjoy spending some time here. https://zenretreat.com
My brother has been there multiple times and found it helpful. Monk used to be a businessman.

My dog loves that kind of stuff. She's pretty hardcore. She will run herself for hours to the point of collapse chasing anything that moves.

The philosophy and aesthetic of zen is very appealing to me. In my old house I had a mattress and a coffee table...thats it. I only had one bowl, glass, and set of silverware. Friends were aware if they were coming to eat they had to bring their own dishes and would be sitting on the floor. Lol

I've listened to many talks by Ajahn Brahma...buddhist (not zen) but I believe located in Perth. Funny guy..really enjoy his stuff.

[doodle]

Kriegspiel said:

When you can count on never being homeless or starving everything seems more leisurely and stress-free.

Definitely. I disagree with people pushing focus on making more vs spending less. If you find something you're passionate about and can make alot of money doing, great. However, I think it is much more effective to ruthlessly cut expenses for most people not making six figures or multiples thereof. It's very realistic to be able to live on 15k a year and plenty of low stress jobs making 50k. Do that on your own with decent investment returns starting in your early twenties and by 40 you'll be looking at a sizeable nest egg relative to your yearly expenses. If you can find a partner to participate with you, you probably could escape full time work by mid 30s. And then, because you are accustomed to living on less you can comfortably get by doing almost anything you want to do.

Voluntary poverty has been the best thing that I ever did. Of course, my poverty involves skiing 100 days a year, traveling and camping in some of the most beautiful places on this earth, plenty of healthy food and exercise and learning...I wish more people could see the benefits to this lifestyle. It does involve sacrifices...but with the right perspective those cease to be onerous. I go mountain biking in summer with people riding 4000 dollar bikes. My bike is 30 years old and cost me 100 bucks. It was the best mountain bike you could buy 30 years ago. Yeah, I'm a little slower and my ride is much more difficult without suspension...but that's part of the fun and challenge. Switching my perspective in that way has made a world of difference for me.

[yankees60]

Kriegspiel said:

When you can count on never being homeless or starving everything seems more leisurely and stress-free.

Definitely. I disagree with people pushing focus on making more vs spending less. If you find something you're passionate about and can make alot of money doing, great. However, I think it is much more effective to ruthlessly cut expenses for most people not making six figures or multiples thereof. It's very realistic to be able to live on 15k a year and plenty of low stress jobs making 50k. Do that on your own with decent investment returns starting in your early twenties and by 40 you'll be looking at a sizeable nest egg relative to your yearly expenses. If you can find a partner to participate with you, you probably could escape full time work by mid 30s. And then, because you are accustomed to living on less you can comfortably get by doing almost anything you want to do.

Voluntary poverty has been the best thing that I ever did. Of course, my poverty involves skiing 100 days a year, traveling and camping in some of the most beautiful places on this earth, plenty of healthy food and exercise and learning...I wish more people could see the benefits to this lifestyle. It does involve sacrifices...but with the right perspective those cease to be onerous. I go mountain biking in summer with people riding 4000 dollar bikes. My bike is 30 years old and cost me 100 bucks. It was the best mountain bike you could buy 30 years ago. Yeah, I'm a little slower and my ride is much more difficult without suspension...but that's part of the fun and challenge. Switching my perspective in that way has made a world of difference for me.

Curious what brand this is.

I bought my hybrid in 1994. The bike shop owner who sold it to me years later told me that it had been an excellent brand until it went downhill once the bike manufacturer decided to put a greater focus on cocaine instead of continuing to produce excellent bikes.

Vinny

[doodle]

Mines a full rigid steel specialized stumpjumper comp. 1991 I believe. Specialized still produces great bikes though.

I don't know what bike manufacturer that could be. Lots of them have come and gone over the years. You don't have it anymore?

[yankees60]

Mines a full rigid steel specialized stumpjumper comp. 1991 I believe. Specialized still produces great bikes though.

I don't know what bike manufacturer that could be. Lots of them have come and gone over the years. You don't have it anymore?

Of course I still have it! I am the anti-minimalist! My 900 square foot house plus full basement and 500 square foot garage is absolutely packed everywhere and in all places with things.

I just went out to the cold basement and it looks like it is a Ross Signature model.

Also, looks like they are STILL in business: https://rossbikes.com/

I think mine is a 21 speed and I paid about $400 for it. Which is about equal to $700 now.

This is the closest I can find to it: https://www.bikepedia.com/QUICKBIKE/Bik ... el=Centaur.

Different model. Centaur rather than Signature. But same year. The Shimano parts name seems familiar.

Vinny

[doodle]

Mines a full rigid steel specialized stumpjumper comp. 1991 I believe. Specialized still produces great bikes though.

I don't know what bike manufacturer that could be. Lots of them have come and gone over the years. You don't have it anymore?

Of course I still have it! I am the anti-minimalist! My 900 square foot house plus full basement and 500 square foot garage is absolutely packed everywhere and in all places with things.

I just went out to the cold basement and it looks like it is a Ross Signature model.

Also, looks like they are STILL in business: https://rossbikes.com/

I think mine is a 21 speed and I paid about $400 for it. Which is about equal to $700 now.

This is the closest I can find to it: https://www.bikepedia.com/QUICKBIKE/Bik ... el=Centaur.

Different model. Centaur rather than Signature. But same year. The Shimano parts name seems familiar.

Vinny

I'd heard of them but not seen many. From website looks like they are making a comeback.

Nothing wrong with anti minimalism if it's useful stuff. I just can't stand tztochkies and knickknacks. If I ever get a workshop I'll probably have it packed to the rafters with tools and junk.