Message From Our Alt-Right Members to the “Moderates”

[SomeDude]

Oh, and one more thing to all of you who ran a business and complain about your workers. I ran a business as well and chose specifically not to hire anyone because I wanted to be in absolute control of the quality of my work. I decided to forgo expansion and turned down larger projects because I decided to work alone.

If you hired someone it's because you wanted to expand and increase your revenue further than you could on your own. You did it for selfish reasons. If you couldnt motivate the individual working for you then you have yourself to blame. Jeff Bezos couldn't have built amazon on his own. He didn't have the capital, skills, talent or manpower to do so. It was a collective effort that he organized. If he has workers that aren't motivated that's on him, not his workers. Perhaps he needs to rethink his incentive system.

Well, Maddy and Dr Pugchief, you are both selfish people. Why not file your own legal briefs and prep your own patients for dental work?

Clarification..they are not selfish, but by hiring people they had selfish motivations to offload boring time consuming or mundane aspects of their job to someone else in order to free up more time for them to earn more money. If pug can earn 100 dollars an hour seeing a patient then it is a great deal to hire someone for ten dollars an hour to prep and clean the room. If he can free up five hours a day and earn 500 dollars by paying someone 50 bucks that's a great deal for him. But he shouldn't act surprised that the other individual maybe isn't as motivated or excited about the deal as he is. In that regard he has failed to motivate that individual. Perhaps if he paid them 30 dollars an hour instead he would get a motivated dedicated person, but he's not willing to just make an extra 350....he wants 450...well, I don't feel that much sympathy for him. Sorry, you get what you pay for.

Doodle, you are clueless. If only those numbers worked out as you think. The reality is that by the time I am done paying unemployment taxes, payroll taxes, health care and 401k match (all government mandated costs), that person making $20/hour is costing me $30. And I have to train them, even if they have experience. Maybe I should pay them the same hourly rate I make so they are more motivated? Because I didn't go into debt to spend 8 years getting my degree for my own benefit. Nor did I invest capital at my own risk for my own benefit.

you should turn your biz management over to doodle

he knows a lot about how to make everything better. he knows what everyone should do. lefty's ALWAYS know what everyone should do.

[doodle]

Oh, and one more thing to all of you who ran a business and complain about your workers. I ran a business as well and chose specifically not to hire anyone because I wanted to be in absolute control of the quality of my work. I decided to forgo expansion and turned down larger projects because I decided to work alone.

If you hired someone it's because you wanted to expand and increase your revenue further than you could on your own. You did it for selfish reasons. If you couldnt motivate the individual working for you then you have yourself to blame. Jeff Bezos couldn't have built amazon on his own. He didn't have the capital, skills, talent or manpower to do so. It was a collective effort that he organized. If he has workers that aren't motivated that's on him, not his workers. Perhaps he needs to rethink his incentive system.

Well, Maddy and Dr Pugchief, you are both selfish people. Why not file your own legal briefs and prep your own patients for dental work?

Clarification..they are not selfish, but by hiring people they had selfish motivations to offload boring time consuming or mundane aspects of their job to someone else in order to free up more time for them to earn more money. If pug can earn 100 dollars an hour seeing a patient then it is a great deal to hire someone for ten dollars an hour to prep and clean the room. If he can free up five hours a day and earn 500 dollars by paying someone 50 bucks that's a great deal for him. But he shouldn't act surprised that the other individual maybe isn't as motivated or excited about the deal as he is. In that regard he has failed to motivate that individual. Perhaps if he paid them 30 dollars an hour instead he would get a motivated dedicated person, but he's not willing to just make an extra 350....he wants 450...well, I don't feel that much sympathy for him. Sorry, you get what you pay for.

Doodle, you are clueless. If only those numbers worked out as you think. The reality is that by the time I am done paying unemployment taxes, payroll taxes, health care and 401k match (all government mandated costs), that person making $20/hour is costing me $30. And I have to train them, even if they have experience. Maybe I should pay them the same hourly rate I make so they are more motivated? Because I didn't go into debt to spend 8 years getting my degree for my own benefit. Nor did I invest capital at my own risk for my own benefit.

Hmmm...that's funny sounds just like me..


doodle
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:43 pm
Forum: Other Discussions
Topic: Food expenses
Replies: 100
Views: 685
Re: Food expenses
Yeah self employment is expensive! The quickest way for libertarians to swell the ranks would be for peoples salaries to be advertised at the companies cost, and then have them be aware of what is being deducted..for workers comp, unemployment ins, SS, healthcare ...

[doodle]

Doodle, you are clueless. If only those numbers worked out as you think. The reality is that by the time I am done paying unemployment taxes, payroll taxes, health care and 401k match (all government mandated costs), that person making $20/hour is costing me $30. And I have to train them, even if they have experience. Maybe I should pay them the same hourly rate I make so they are more motivated? Because I didn't go into debt to spend 8 years getting my degree for my own benefit. Nor did I invest capital at my own risk for my own benefit.

That begs the question then, why do you do it? I didn't mostly for those very reasons. It wasn't worth it to me. Do it all on your own, get creative.

[SomeDude]

Doodle, you are clueless. If only those numbers worked out as you think. The reality is that by the time I am done paying unemployment taxes, payroll taxes, health care and 401k match (all government mandated costs), that person making $20/hour is costing me $30. And I have to train them, even if they have experience. Maybe I should pay them the same hourly rate I make so they are more motivated? Because I didn't go into debt to spend 8 years getting my degree for my own benefit. Nor did I invest capital at my own risk for my own benefit.

That begs the question then, why do you do it? I didn't mostly for those very reasons. It wasn't worth it to me. Do it all on your own, get creative.

If we've learned anything about pugchieg, we've learned he isn't creative. he can't even creatively pick up and move his family and practice to a freer state! I mean, it's almost like he recognizes the total reasonable need for poo er, I mean, government interference in his life and business/wealth. He just pretends to be an alt-ham libertarian.

[doodle]

Doodle, you are clueless. If only those numbers worked out as you think. The reality is that by the time I am done paying unemployment taxes, payroll taxes, health care and 401k match (all government mandated costs), that person making $20/hour is costing me $30. And I have to train them, even if they have experience. Maybe I should pay them the same hourly rate I make so they are more motivated? Because I didn't go into debt to spend 8 years getting my degree for my own benefit. Nor did I invest capital at my own risk for my own benefit.

That begs the question then, why do you do it? I didn't mostly for those very reasons. It wasn't worth it to me. Do it all on your own, get creative.

I aim for the best balance of efficiency vs cost. I could prob use another staff member at times, but the additional cost would exceed the value of the additional efficiency and production. I had a friend who tried to do it all on his own. He gained 200 lbs and had a heart attack from the stress.

So there are other benefits to hiring people outside of monetary compensation....I had the same issue trying to lift heavy shit. Two people would have been a breeze, but I was stubborn. Sometimes I'd throw a friend money to help me for 15 minutes if I seriously couldn't manage and was going to break my back.

And yeah, I was going to move to Oregon but they basically have a flat 10% state tax rate...so forget that.

And I understand the plight of small business people and am sympathetic to their issues a lot more than the Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates of the world.

I don't have the answers. I don't want a top down approach if at all possible. I want people to be rewarded for their hard work and perseverance. I worked my ass off for nearly twenty years and sacrificed a shit ton to get where I am.

However, as much as I recognize that inequality is the natural outgrowth of a free society, I also see it as a socially destabalizing force. I think the trend that we are seeing and will continue to see due to our economic system and economies of scale and virtuous feedback cycles, and technological developments will have a smaller and smaller percentage of people owning a larger and larger percentage of the wealth of this nation. At some point we become a banana republic and things breakdown and it all goes to shit. South and central america is notorious for this. The disparity between upper class and lower is too broad and everyone suffers.

I find it repugnant that our system is designed in such a way that one man can make 2 billion dollars a week while the labor he harnessed to do this needed food stamps to get by. That's a poorly designed system and that I feel needs to be addressed because I don't want to live in a world like that.

[doodle]

On the flip side, I want the political left to stop victimizing everyone and talk to them like adults. I lived comfortably on 12-15k a year. I don't think it's unreasonable for two intelligent people to get by on 50k combined and save.

That said! The repercussions of individuals living within their means will result in widespread economic contraction. If everyone lived like me we'd have 60 percent unemployment. I clean scrape my own teeth every two months and brush and floss twice a day. I haven't been to a dentist in 10 years...no cavities. So in a macro sense virtuous behavior on the part of individuals would be detrimental to jobs and economic growth.

I can't help but think this is a flaw in our system. I'm not sure how to rectify it.

[doodle]

Actually I'll expound....it's not a flaw. It would be a fantastic thing if people would recognize that we have the productive capacity to fufill all our needs with just a few hours of work a day. People constantly express how stressful their jobs and lives are but are so indoctrinated into consumer culture that they can't see that it's their endless wants that keep them tied to the treadmill.

How to get people to see that light? No idea. And I don't see any feasible path towards getting there as long as our society is locked into this constant exponential growth model.

[doodle]

On the flip side, I want the political left to stop victimizing everyone and talk to them like adults. I lived comfortably on 12-15k a year. I don't think it's unreasonable for two intelligent people to get by on 50k combined and save.

I think the clear solution is everyone make $15k a year. It will force people to be less materialistic, but they can live comfortably. No one needs to make $2B a week.

No one will be better off or worse off than anyone else, just like nature intended, every baby is born equal to every other baby, and society constructs that one baby will be less physically strong than another just because she doesn’t have a penis. And society constructs that one baby will be less likely to go to college just because it’s black.

Babies are all equal until bloodthirsty patriarch ham-sandwich-eating alt-right libertarians impose their view of society onto them. Because they know better.

Tom, can you expound on this wonders of your free society that fences and walls everything off with tresspassers will be shot signs? I'm mesmerized by how wonderful this sounds. Can I opt out...or does your idea of liberty not allow me that freedom? Do I have to play according to your rules? Or those of the mob majority? After all, if the title to your land comes courtesy of your own private title company, perhaps my title company disputes that claim and says the land is free and open to anyone.

You fail to recognize that your idea of liberty and freedom is being imposed forcibly on those who might have a different conception of what that means. But of course, you can't seem to see the inherent contradiction in your beliefs.

[SomeDude]

I don't see any feasible path towards getting there as long as our society is locked into this constant exponential growth model.

Society is a collection of individuals, the majority of which want a more abundant life. This motivation is what brought us out of the caves.

Turning off that motivation will put us back in caves.

The good news is you as an individual can choose at any time to stop growing, both personally and in wealth.

[doodle]

I don't see any feasible path towards getting there as long as our society is locked into this constant exponential growth model.

Society is a collection of individuals, the majority of which want a more abundant life. This motivation is what brought us out of the caves.

Turning off that motivation will put us back in caves.

The good news is you as an individual can choose at any time to stop growing, both personally and in wealth.

Sure. But you are missing my point. I'm saying that if every middle class individual took on virtuous habits in order to be responsible and save for their future it would put our economy into an economic tailspin. You giving off mixed messaging. Out of one side of your mouth you say people need to be responsible and save and invest yet on the other side you want continued economic expansion and plentiful jobs. It doesn't work that way. Well...., short of government infrastructure spending filling the gap.

If americans start saving 20 percent of their income and stop going out and spending you basically recreate the conditions that spiralled us into great depression .

[yankees60]

I don't see any feasible path towards getting there as long as our society is locked into this constant exponential growth model.

Society is a collection of individuals, the majority of which want a more abundant life. This motivation is what brought us out of the caves.

Turning off that motivation will put us back in caves.

The good news is you as an individual can choose at any time to stop growing, both personally and in wealth.

Sure. But you are missing my point. I'm saying that if every middle class individual took on virtuous habits in order to be responsible and save for their future it would put our economy into an economic tailspin. You giving off mixed messaging. Out of one side of your mouth you say people need to be responsible and save and invest yet on the other side you want continued economic expansion and plentiful jobs. It doesn't work that way. Well...., short of government infrastructure spending filling the gap.

If americans start saving 20 percent of their income and stop going out and spending you basically recreate the conditions that spiralled us into great depression .

Unless it could (in the ideal) result in all of us working 20% less to not produce all that 20% we all acquire that we really do not need.

Vinny

[Maddy]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

[SomeDude]

if every middle class individual took on virtuous habits in order to be responsible and save for their future it would put our economy into an economic tailspin.

Post of the year.

Folks, productivity and saving does not create capital and does not lead to higher productivity and standards of living.

Yes, those activities do make an individual successful, but somehow if everyone is successful then everyone will go into poverty.

This explains why Marx is your avatar.

[doodle]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

Need or want?

Anyways, it makes no difference....the way our system is set up currently if middle class america catches the personal responsibility bug and starts making prudent saving and spending choices per the financial experts it will tank our economy. Stock prices will quickly follow, led by further layoffs and reduced business investment all the way down. Sure, we could all reduce our work hours and divy up the necessary jobs between the entire workforce but that's not what will happen. A small segment of the most productive will stay on and the rest will be let go....until the ones who are let go no longer have money to spend and then eventually even Bezos isn't selling anything. That's just how it works.

[doodle]

if every middle class individual took on virtuous habits in order to be responsible and save for their future it would put our economy into an economic tailspin.

Post of the year.

Folks, productivity and saving does not create capital and does not lead to higher productivity and standards of living.

Yes, those activities do make an individual successful, but somehow if everyone is successful then everyone will go into poverty.

This explains why Marx is your avatar.

You don't understand economics do you? Why do you think China relied on american consumerism and exports? Because they didn't have domestic consumption habits that would allow them to maintain full employment otherwise in conjunction with their saving habits.

This is pretty simple. My dollars hoarded in the bank in a deflationary environment is good for me. I'm not looking to make capital investments in a world where no one is spending.

[SomeDude]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

Need or want?

Anyways, it makes no difference....the way our system is set up currently if middle class america catches the personal responsibility bug and starts making prudent saving and spending choices per the financial experts it will tank our economy.

I pray the non-posters can see how ridiculous that is.

Yes if everyone instantly changes their consumption habits we will have a recession as the economy needs to re-allocate scarce resources. If you make a horseless carriage and now cars come out, someone smarter than you will have to figure how you can be put to productive use, that will take time.

If in total the value of our labor exceeds the value we consume, the excess labor will be used not in the creation of consumables but instead in capital goods (property, plant, and equipment). This addition will make us richer in the future as it's capital goods combined with labor that enable the creation of consumption goods.

For people who need real-world examples rather than concepts, look at China where the savings rate is much higher than us and productive output (due to capital increases) have resulted in much higher growth and standard of living increases than we've been experiencing.

This is in spite of the government wasting massive amounts of Chinese productivity subsidizing American consumption and squandering it on communist party boondoggles.

A nation of farmers turned into an economic powerhouse, fueled by a high savings that doodle thinks dooms an economy.

Marxist theories are only good for a laugh.

[yankees60]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

From what I've gathered from you here...you may have already pared out that 20% or never had it in the first place. Therefore, you might be exempt from having to give up your 20%.

Vinny

[yankees60]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

Need or want?

Anyways, it makes no difference....the way our system is set up currently if middle class america catches the personal responsibility bug and starts making prudent saving and spending choices per the financial experts it will tank our economy. Stock prices will quickly follow, led by further layoffs and reduced business investment all the way down. Sure, we could all reduce our work hours and divy up the necessary jobs between the entire workforce but that's not what will happen. A small segment of the most productive will stay on and the rest will be let go....until the ones who are let go no longer have money to spend and then eventually even Bezos isn't selling anything. That's just how it works.

I said what I said as the ideal. Not saying it would ever happen.

Vinny

[doodle]

If in total the value of our labor exceeds the value we consume, the excess labor will be used not in the creation of consumables but instead in capital goods (property, plant, and equipment).

No one invests in capital goods and builds billion dollar factories if no one is consuming! You don't build shopping malls and open stores when no one is shopping.

China was an export based economy. Without the United States buying all their plastic widgets they wouldn't have had any reason to invest in all that productive capital

[SomeDude]

If in total the value of our labor exceeds the value we consume, the excess labor will be used not in the creation of consumables but instead in capital goods (property, plant, and equipment).

No one invests in capital goods and builds billion dollar factories if no one is consuming! You don't build shopping malls and open stores when no one is shopping.

China was an export based economy. Without the United States buying all their plastic widgets they wouldn't have had any reason to invest in all that productive capital

Doodle, I wish you would stop consuming and test out your theories. I kid

[doodle]

Economics according to some dude:

Headline:
Consumer spending down 20 percent and unemployment tops 15%

Businessman: Hey, demand for our products is down sharply this year. Let's build another factory so we can increase production!

[doodle]

If in total the value of our labor exceeds the value we consume, the excess labor will be used not in the creation of consumables but instead in capital goods (property, plant, and equipment).

No one invests in capital goods and builds billion dollar factories if no one is consuming! You don't build shopping malls and open stores when no one is shopping.

China was an export based economy. Without the United States buying all their plastic widgets they wouldn't have had any reason to invest in all that productive capital

Doodle, I wish you would stop consuming and test out your theories. I kid

I have. If everyone spent money like me we'd have 80 percent unemployment. Kriegs said he will come in under 13k this year. Forget covid...we'd put every restaurant out of business. Shopping malls. Forget about it. Cars? Who needs that, I got a bicycle. Entertainment....I got this forum, what more do I need

Our GDP would probably be somewhere between Honduras and Nicaragua. I guarantee no one would be making capital investments to cater to the demands of 300 million doodles.

[SomeDude]

Economics according to some dude:

Headline:
Consumer spending down 20 percent and unemployment tops 15%

Businessman: Hey, demand for our products is down sharply this year. Let's build another factory so we can increase production!

The poop smear you love so much directs our economy, and it's directed huge swaths of it to cease operating to prevent some old people from getting the flu. We have a command economy driven by philosopher-kings, and they have more control every year. Therefore the crisis will get bigger and worse over time. They also control half of every trade with the currency, and have made saving it a losing proposition with negative real interest rates, discouraging savings which in your mind is what leads to prosperity lol.

Visitors here should read Harry Browne, How You Can Profit from the Coming Devaluation & Monetary Crisis

In particular read part two. The chapters are listed below.

Even you might know something after you read it Doodle.


PART 2 - WHY THERE ARE CRISES

Getting What You Want
The Marketplace
The Government Intervenes
The Market Responds
Money
Inflation
Falling Currencies
Depression
Runaway Inflation
Price Controls
The General Welfare
A Visit to Rhinegold

[Maddy]

I need that last 20 percent. I don't know about you.

Need or want?

Wow, that's arrogant.

The answer is "need."

[pp4me]

Basically I don't have the level of faith that the free market will solve all of humanities problems that some people here do.

I doubt that there is anybody here who actually believes that. Only the strawman in your head does.

I wish it were a strawman in my head. There are many people here actively arguing that the best course of action for our country and the world would be to abolish all government...Tom, Techno, Mark, to name just a few have said they even support privatizing our legal system and police forces.

They can answer for themselves whether or not they think you are presenting strawman arguments for what they really believe. My only question for you is what difference does it really make to you what they believe?

Hold up, did you read Tom's opening post from this thread? Who has a problem with who believing what? He basically stated anyone who disagrees with the majority viewpoints here should pack up and leave.

If that's what he said then that sounds like pure tomfoolery to me.

I welcome different points of view. Just gets to me when others come here and insist that theirs is the only correct one and how can you dumb-f**ks believe the way you do?