Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

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pmward
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:19 am
l82start wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:22 am
doodle wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:07 am
This dude coming on the forum and immediately asking how to ignore people. Lol
no sudden dawning of self awareness regarding the type of posts that are driving people to find the block button? or awareness of how badly these type of posts have lowered the level of discourse?
If lunatics had self-awareness, they wouldn't be lunatics.
He once again proves his own point!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:35 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am
If we had a debate on Trump-style populism rather than the exclusive focus of certain forum members on Trump himself, that would be potentially of interest. I just don't see it happening though. It's not really politics that's driving this, it's the sheer malevolence of those posters, and complete disregard of any point of view that might not be fully consistent with that malevolent set of opinions.
I would be down for that discussion. Admittedly, my dislike for Trump is stronger than my dislike for his policies (though I strongly dislike his isolationist, tariff, and anti-immigration policies, and believe they are bad for our economy and country).
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:45 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
sophie wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:29 am
AdamA wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 am
I think that's why when Craig initially setup the forum he had a "no politics" rule.
He did? I didn't know that. It was certainly not evident by the time I joined.

In the current situation though, you'd have a hard time blocking the medical/health aspects of current politics. As I recall, there were a LOT of very controversial health related threads in the past. Also, most political discussions were abstract commentaries on things like libertarianism, the Fed, etc. So unbelievably civil now, in retrospect.

If we had a debate on Trump-style populism rather than the exclusive focus of certain forum members on Trump himself, that would be potentially of interest. I just don't see it happening though. It's not really politics that's driving this, it's the sheer malevolence of those posters, and complete disregard of any point of view that might not be fully consistent with that malevolent set of opinions.
I think a discussion of the etiology of TDS might be interesting, although of course blocking the usual suspects will be not only desirable but essential, as they obviously will try to overrun any such discussion.

But you've omitted a possibly small definitely but important point, which is that TDS isn't just about Trump himself, but anyone who supports him in any way or even isn't completely onboard with hatred for him.

For those with stage 4 TDS, anyone like that should be driven from society. Here's just one example, although there are many:

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/202 ... rosecuted/

It's really astounding that a significant fraction of a supposedly civilized society can have such an opinion.
The opposite is once again true (he is batting 1.000 today). THS (Tinfoil Hat Syndrome) is when someone on the "right" hates all people that dislike Trump, including but not limited to blocking everyone who states an opinion that in any way is different than Trump's, labelling anyone who does not like Trump as "level 4 TDS", believing that there was some "deep state" conspiracy, and a delusional unwillingness to come to terms with the reality that Trump lost the election. I would say Tech himself qualifies for "level 4" THS.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by sophie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:57 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 am
But you've omitted a possibly small definitely but important point, which is that TDS isn't just about Trump himself, but anyone who supports him in any way or even isn't completely onboard with hatred for him.
Well, those are sort of wrapped up in what I intended to say, yes.

I have absolutely learned that simply stating that I agree about the nastiness of Trump's tweets and his irritatingly constant need for self-congratulation isn't sufficient to appease these folks, because I THEN go on to say that I consider all this less important than his policies (i.e. "Trump-ism" if you will). That does not satisfy the ravening beast, which requires a deep, unconditional and absolute hatred to the exclusion of all other considerations. My mind just doesn't work that way.

That's what borderline personality disorder is all about: an inability to see shades of gray, and a strong tendency to divide the world into people that are hated or loved - with nothing in between. That also explains the love affair with Biden, who I recognize is more polished but who is also an unscrupulous creep. And Kamala Harris is the original "Mean Girl" and I suspect would be no better than Trump in building a bipartisan consensus. Not saying the trolls/lunatics/whatever you call them meet criteria for BPD, but it sure is hard not to think of that possibility.

Actually tech I'd really rather discuss Trump-style populism, as a very enticing and likely successful way forward for the Republican Party. Could we? I'd really enjoy that.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Don » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Tortoise » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Some people believe that the ends justify the means.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 pm

Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Proof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election. Until that changes I operate under the view that Biden won, as all evidence in hand currently shows.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Ad Orientem » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 pm
Don wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am
"But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.

Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
The problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Proof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election.

I hate to admit this, but I think I have found the evidence of fraud that Trump and his surrogates have been referring to. And I'm fairly certain the video footage was not doctored. Assuming the video is legitimate, then it is pretty much damning. In all three of the contested states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia... they let black people vote.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by l82start » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:06 pm

would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?

FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:09 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm
I hate to admit this, but I think I have found the evidence of fraud that Trump and his surrogates have been referring to. And I'm fairly certain the video footage was not doctored. Assuming the video is legitimate, then it is pretty much damning. In all three of the contested states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia... they let black people vote.
Not only that, but WOMEN!
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by pmward » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:10 pm

l82start wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:06 pm
would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?

FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
I think it would take time to document and process some proof, but not all proof. There should be something out by now. What do I see? A bunch of small court cases being laughed out of the courts (even by right wing judges) specifically for "lack of evidence". We are not guilty until proven innocent in this country. It is on Trump to prove the guilt of the Democratic Party, not on the Democratic Party to prove its innocence. The lack of evidence is in itself the very argument for innocence. So, I think we all should operate from the viewpoint of the evidence at hand... and that evidence says Biden won, and should be allowed to begin his transition just like every single president before him was allowed to start their transition. We can always stop that transition in a few weeks if evidence is really brought up. We should not alter our operations as a country in any way when there is no proof to suggest altering them in any way.
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Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:16 pm

l82start wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:06 pm
would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?

FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
What mountains of indication of foul play that have merit? Sure there are plenty of allegations, and conspiracies. It's easy to shout that Dominion rigged the vote tabulations in Philadelphia as that video you posted yesterday did, however Dominion wasn't even involved in tabulating the votes in Philadelphia. I assume we need to rely on our court system to separate the wheat from the chaff. Up until this point all allegations have been tossed out as complete nonsense.

I will note, there is a world of difference between the evidence brought forth so far by the Trump campaign regarding election fraud and that evidence brought to bear against the Trump administration by the Mueller reports investigation into foreign interference in 2016. Just looking at the evidence impartially at this point one would have to conclude that there is no evidence of fraud in 2020 and plenty of evidence of collusion and interference in 2016.
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