Private sector leverages government tech

[doodle]

Was listening to Neil Degrasse Tyson talk about all the government developed technology that came about through either science funding, war development, Nasa, etc. That has then been developed by private sector into the things that make our lives so amazing today...everything from microwaves, GPS, quantum computing, MRI, xrays...down to powertools. I think this is something the libertarians overlook...that the private sector would never spend billions of dollars studying quantum mechanics because the profitibailty of this isnt readily apparent until years later when we discover it's applicability to computers. I think absent government we would all be a lot poorer.

[doodle]

I understand your challenge to be regarding the opportunity cost...what were we sacrificing by spending resources on government science projects. I'm not convinced first of all that any of these projects would have been undertaken at all. I don't see private companies (at least ones funded by shareholders) spending billions building hadron colliders or studying quantum particle physics. Most of the discoveries we benefit from today came about through fields that are entirely unprofitable driven more by our desire to understand the universe around us than to further some human need that some private industry realized. The research being funded by national science foundation, or university grants or large wartime programs. The applicability of the technology to our everyday lives was realized later only once the technology was created. There is nothing new about this...it has always been this way....the Dutch East India Company the world's most valuable company ever leveraged the discoveries and cartography and knowledge gained by governmental explorations and was itself a government sponsored creation. Companies are fantastic when it comes to defining and marketing and improving efficiency but they are not good at the costly, risky and lengthy process of developing the original technologies. Our ability to have this conversation is due to the creation of ARPANET. Once that tech was developed the private sector could then run with it and generate the trillions upon trillions of dollars of value that the internet has provided to our civilization....I highly doubt private industry would have conceived and created this all on its own. Besides, think how different the world would have been if the web had been privately owned instead of open source. I would argue that it's hard to put a value on what the internet has done for us....I would argue it's value and potential far exceeds a few trillion in government budgets.

[doodle]

Take fusion energy as another example....the department of energy spends billions funding research into this. One day I'm sure it will change the world and alter our energy future. Do you think a petrochemical company would try to develop alternative energy sources and marshall all the power of our research institutions to fund the development of this for decade after decadr for the betterment of the world..cutting dividends and profitability and tying up resources ?. I doubt it. Companies are focused on short term time horizons. They might work in a public private partnership...but going alone? Of course, once the tech has reached a certain stage of development then private industry can run with it...but I don't think one can overlook the years of fundamental research that was government sponsored.

[Mark Leavy]

doodle, you raise a good point.

I did a ton of work with DARPA money and after delivering the product, we were allowed to keep all of the intellectual property (due primarily to the super savvy partner I was working with). We then spun off that technology to some commercial endeavors. And those endeavors are changing industries.

I also can say for a fact that Apple's 3D mapping was initially purchased from SAAB's military division - and then later improved in house. I got to see a preview of SAAB's work before they sold it - and it was better than mine. Fuckers... oops.

So... back to the point. And to Tom's point. What would have happened if the USA and Finland hadn't been subsidizing research? Would we still have the technology we have today? I don't think you can say one way or the other. The technology was ripe to happen. Would funding have appeared?

I think it is much like Newton and Leibniz both inventing calculus. When the time is ripe, the technology erupts.

[doodle]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

[Mark Leavy]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

Microwaves as a communication technology definitely would have happened. Wifi is 2.4 gigahertz. I swear to you that every physicist thinks in terms of energy transfer. Heating food would have happened.

I still cook hotdogs by wiring a couple of nails to the AC outlet.

[Smith1776]

What's funny about that Neil Tyson interview is that at another point in the conversation he basically concedes that the only reason why the U.S. government pushed for advancements in space is because of the geopolitical rivalry with the Russians. That idea is borne out by the fact that America's space efforts petered out after the collapse of the USSR.

Sure, you can say that government might do what private enterprise is unwilling to do. However, when the impetus behind the government's actions is as capricious and circumstantial as the space race, it's hard to see the government as being a benevolent and consistently entrepreneurial force.

Private enterprise, by contrast, is always looking for the next big breakthrough, regardless of whether the soviets are breathing down our necks or not.

[Xan]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

[Mark Leavy]

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Just bought. It looks awesome. Never heard of him before.
Mark

[yankees60]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Thanks. Just bought my "good" used copy for $5.95 delivered!

Vinny

[doodle]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Thanks. Just bought my "good" used copy for $5.95 delivered!

Vinny

Courtesy of government

"The Postal Service created Media Mail back in 1938 as a less expensive way to mail books – it was originally designed to encourage the flow of educational materials through the mail. ... "

[Mark Leavy]

...
Courtesy of government

"The Postal Service created Media Mail back in 1938 as a less expensive way to mail books – it was originally designed to encourage the flow of educational materials through the mail. ... "

doodle, do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder, Am I the Asshole?

Honestly, when you switch topics without acknowledging that your OP has been answered, you might want to ask yourself why.

Mark

[Kriegsspiel]

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Another interesting guy is Geoffrey Pyke.

[doodle]

...
Courtesy of government

"The Postal Service created Media Mail back in 1938 as a less expensive way to mail books – it was originally designed to encourage the flow of educational materials through the mail. ... "

doodle, do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder, Am I the Asshole?

Honestly, when you switch topics without acknowledging that your OP has been answered, you might want to ask yourself why.

Mark

Frequently. I definitely don't have the demeanor to become president...and it only gets worse as I get older.
Considering your choice of candidates though I thought maybe that approach would appeal to you.

Sorry, don't see how I switched topics without acknowledging responses. I was merely drawing attention to Vinny's great book price.

Oh, hi Mark.

Doodle,

Here’s at least a tangentially related side topic. If government spending on this research yielded huge benefits in the private sector, then two possibilities exist:

A) government spent exactly the right money on the research to get optimal output

B) government didn’t spend enough and if we raised more taxes and diverted to research, we’d all be better off

In your centrally planned utopia, how do you determine the optimal amount to raise taxes to fund more research? Since money is fungible, you’re not allowed to answer by saying “well I’d cut military spending” because that’s equivalent to raising taxes for research.

Because if you were cutting military spending, that should include an associated tax cut. Followed by an immediate tax increase to fund something else if desired.

So, how do you determine how much money to suck out of the private sector to divert to research and who decides what to research?

Why does any money have to be sucked out of the private sector? Hasn't the last four years of Trump's budget deficits proven that government doesn't need tax revenue to spend? Our budgetary constraints in our monetary system are limited by inflation...which we have very little of despite running what is it..a 3 trillion dollar deficit in 2020 alone? That's about 150 years worth of funding NASA's budget. Or 375 years of funding the national science foundations budget. I think you are making a straw man argument with this diversion of funds. Now, as far as diversion of resources and brain power from the private sector..that could be argued. But would you rather have the best minds working at goldman sachs figuring out algorithms to beat the market or working at a lab developing fusion technology? I know which one id rather devote our socities brainpower to. I'm glad the government makes that possible because I'm certain that relying wholy on rich corporate benefactors we'd never achieve the funding necessary to support long term projects like that. Besides, even if they did...shareholders would revolt. The purpose of a corporation is not to fund scientific research. It's to make money.

[pmward]

Was listening to Neil Degrasse Tyson talk about all the government developed technology that came about through either science funding, war development, Nasa, etc. That has then been developed by private sector into the things that make our lives so amazing today...everything from microwaves, GPS, quantum computing, MRI, xrays...down to powertools. I think this is something the libertarians overlook...that the private sector would never spend billions of dollars studying quantum mechanics because the profitibailty of this isnt readily apparent until years later when we discover it's applicability to computers. I think absent government we would all be a lot poorer.

I think this is especially pertinent to "green" initiatives. I think there is a lot of value in the government backing research and building infrastructure to help our country innovate to the inevitable future of energy. This is an upfront investment that will pay dividends for centuries into the future. They did the same thing with the internet back in the day, they invested in the invention and the initial infrastructure. If they had not done this, would the U.S. still be the leading country in tech innovation today?

[doodle]

What's funny about that Neil Tyson interview is that at another point in the conversation he basically concedes that the only reason why the U.S. government pushed for advancements in space is because of the geopolitical rivalry with the Russians. That idea is borne out by the fact that America's space efforts petered out after the collapse of the USSR.

Sure, you can say that government might do what private enterprise is unwilling to do. However, when the impetus behind the government's actions is as capricious and circumstantial as the space race, it's hard to see the government as being a benevolent and consistently entrepreneurial force.

Private enterprise, by contrast, is always looking for the next big breakthrough, regardless of whether the soviets are breathing down our necks or not.

Competition motivates humans...whether that is geopolitically or profit driven. I will continue to argue though that the private sector...especially when profit oriented is not suited for the ground level type of research upon which amazing future technologies are built. We need and will continue to need more government funding for big science iniatives. Yes it will cost billions of dollars a year.....although I think of looking at it in terms of money is a bit misleading....its about resources...specifically brain power. I think it's good that as a society we devote a few percent of our governments budget to fund very smart peoples research into all sorts of things whose immediate application to profit drive enterprise isn't clear. I'm glad we have grants to fund people who want to work on novel solutions to huge world problems...or figure out where the universe ends...or if aliens exist. I think we have benefitted tremendously from this exploratory discovery. In the past our advances didn't require as much funding...the resources needed to make a telescope to look at the heaven's or a microscope to look at cells are much smaller than building particle accelerators or launching satellites.

I don't agree with Mark that these technologies will just emerge when they are ready...at least not out of the private sector whose vision is set on making money here and now. The whole structure upon which corporations is built is a fantastic tool at optimizing and making things efficient...but science and exploration isn't that...it's sometimes messy.

[pmward]

An investment in research and infrastructure is an investment in research and infrastructure. Whether it that investment comes from the private or public sector makes no difference. Things like "green energy" require significant upfront investment in both R&D and infrastructure. The government is basically helping the private sector get on their feet in a way. The government would be investing in making the U.S. the leader in "green energy" going forward, in the same way they invested in making us the leader in the internet back in the day. Investing in R&D, infrastructure, etc help to pave the path to continued prosperity of the private sector here in the future. You also better believe China is investing in R&D and infrastructure to try to beat us to the punch.

[doodle]

An investment in research and infrastructure is an investment in research and infrastructure. Whether it that investment comes from the private or public sector makes no difference. Things like "green energy" require significant upfront investment in both R&D and infrastructure. The government is basically helping the private sector get on their feet in a way. The government would be investing in making the U.S. the leader in "green energy" going forward, in the same way they invested in making us the leader in the internet back in the day. Investing in R&D, infrastructure, etc help to pave the path to continued prosperity of the private sector here in the future. You also better believe China is investing in R&D and infrastructure to try to beat us to the punch.

That's right. If we don't, then we will all be learning chinese and working for chinese companies in the future. Bright minds and innovation won't flow out of silicon valley, they will come out of shanghai. New technology in today's world needs public / private partnerships just like Elon Musk and Bezos are piggybacking off of NASA. Sure NASA wasn't as efficient...they were trying to figure out a problem we had never solved before...they were bound to make mistakes. Musk and Bezos have been able to take all that we learned from NASA and now improve upon it without having to figure out everything from square one.

[pmward]

An investment in research and infrastructure is an investment in research and infrastructure. Whether it that investment comes from the private or public sector makes no difference. Things like "green energy" require significant upfront investment in both R&D and infrastructure. The government is basically helping the private sector get on their feet in a way. The government would be investing in making the U.S. the leader in "green energy" going forward, in the same way they invested in making us the leader in the internet back in the day. Investing in R&D, infrastructure, etc help to pave the path to continued prosperity of the private sector here in the future. You also better believe China is investing in R&D and infrastructure to try to beat us to the punch.

That's right. If we don't, then we will all be learning chinese and working for chinese companies in the future. Bright minds and innovation won't flow out of silicon valley, they will come out of shanghai. New technology in today's world needs public / private partnerships just like Elon Musk and Bezos are piggybacking off of NASA. Sure NASA wasn't as efficient...they were trying to figure out a problem we had never solved before...they were bound to make mistakes. Musk and Bezos have been able to take all that we learned from NASA and now improve upon it without having to figure out everything from square one.

Yes, and what we have going on now with green energy is actually better than what we had with space travel and NASA.The government is actually working alongside the private sector. It's more of a shared cost and working together kind of thing than the government doing government work. I don't think we would see any difference in quality of R&D if the private sector went at it alone, other than the fact that with government cooperation they have access to more capital which will speed the process up by years if not decades. If we want to stay the economic power of the world, we need our government to invest in R&D and infrastructure.

[yankees60]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Thanks. Just bought my "good" used copy for $5.95 delivered!

Vinny

Courtesy of government

"The Postal Service created Media Mail back in 1938 as a less expensive way to mail books – it was originally designed to encourage the flow of educational materials through the mail. ... "

I am buying tons of books these days. I will now check to see how many are coming via Media Mail. I was under the impression not that many. I pay $3.99 per book for shipping, which I think is first class rate for less than a certain weight? Too many of the books get to me too quickly to believe that the are being shipped via Media Mail. My understanding with Media Mail is that items being shipped that way can put back in line behind First Class mail and, thus, will oftentimes much longer to arrive than first class.

Vinny

[yankees60]

The technology was ripe to happen

I'm not sure the tech would have even been conceived. Take microwaves...totally revolutionized food...every house has one...they were a happenstance development from WW2 radar technology. I don't even think the idea of exciting water molecules in food using radiation would have been thought of. So oftentimes it's applicability to our lives comes much later...the tech isn't created to meet a need as much as it's potential is recognized later and developed by private industry into a consumer product.

I highly recommend this book about how microwaves and radar etc were researched in WWII. It's a fascinating story.
https://www.amazon.com/Tuxedo-Park-Stre ... 0684872889

Basically it was all driven by this one rich guy who was interested in science and thought he could figure some stuff out. He's basically Batman.

Thanks. Just bought my "good" used copy for $5.95 delivered!

Vinny

Courtesy of government

"The Postal Service created Media Mail back in 1938 as a less expensive way to mail books – it was originally designed to encourage the flow of educational materials through the mail. ... "

I am buying tons of books these days. I will now check to see how many are coming via Media Mail. I was under the impression not that many. I pay $3.99 per book for shipping, which I think is first class rate for less than a certain weight? Too many of the books get to me too quickly to believe that the are being shipped via Media Mail. My understanding with Media Mail is that items being shipped that way can put back in line behind First Class mail and, thus, will oftentimes much longer to arrive than first class.

Vinny

Vinny, they're all shipped media mail. When you sell a book for 1 cent, part of the profit comes from the difference between what the buyer pays for shipping and what Amazon charges the seller. I have sold lots of books there over the years and this was universal.

I believe you are correct. After I wrote what I wrote above I went through the the mailers that were plastic, which are the ones that I do not recycle. One of them said "Bulk Printed Matter" while all the other said "BPM" on the mailing labels.

Vinny