If this is the new normal are you ok with it.

[jalanlong]

So I think a lot of people like myself are just waiting for citizens to come to their senses. But 7 months in I am losing hope. So question for all of you: if this really is the new normal, are you ok with it forever, both for yourself and society as a whole?

What if masks are permanent? What if distancing is permanent? What if we never again have movie theaters, concerts or large sporting events with spectators? What if bars never reopen? What if you never go back into an office again? What if you are never again allowed gatherings of more than 10 people? What if all of the inconveniences you experience day to day right now become permanent?

Are you ok with that? Do you sense that a majority of people would be ok with that? If not, when do they say enough is enough?

[Kbg]

Why burn brain cells on something that isn't going to be the case?

Democrats are too pessimistic, Republicans are too optimistic. Unless it's the Black Plague, pandemics are usually gone after a couple of years. Between the continual advancement of the virus, herd immunity and several vaccines next year I'm guessing by next summer we are looking in the rearview mirror of this thing mostly...until then, Keep Calm, Where a Mask.

[Maddy]

Nearly the entire Left wing of the population is okay with it, which tells me that it's not going away without a fight. Just yesterday I created a scene at a bank whose lobby doors were locked and whose Covid protocol required me to make an appointment to talk to a teller (the assumption being, apparently, that nobody in their right mind actually works anymore). I told them that if they chose to persist in this charade, they could do it without my business. IMHO, this is what it will take--a relentless assault upon those people and businesses who are using this feigned crisis to bring about social reform.

Incidentally, it has become more than apparent that a large segment of the population is actually quite comfortable with the idea of permanent mask-wearing and social distancing. What does that tell you, as a sociological phenomenon, when people prefer not to have to smile and make eye contact with other shoppers, when they'd rather interface with "devices" than with other people, and when they willingly surrender their perogatives in favor of pre-programmed algorithms and ready-made menus designed by "the experts?"

[Hal]

So I think a lot of people like myself are just waiting for citizens to come to their senses. But 7 months in I am losing hope. So question for all of you: if this really is the new normal, are you ok with it forever, both for yourself and society as a whole?

What if masks are permanent? What if distancing is permanent? What if we never again have movie theaters, concerts or large sporting events with spectators? What if bars never reopen? What if you never go back into an office again? What if you are never again allowed gatherings of more than 10 people? What if all of the inconveniences you experience day to day right now become permanent?

Are you ok with that? Do you sense that a majority of people would be ok with that? If not, when do they say enough is enough?

Personally, I think we are waiting for the Government to come to there senses, not the citizens.
We didn't act like this when there used to be Polio outbreaks in the 50's.
Also noteworthy is the problems they had with the vaccines
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline#EVT_100326

Edit: Upon seeing Maddy's post it is evident the mindset in Australia is totally different to the USA

[Cortopassi]

kbg, I am liking a lot of your posts lately.

Maddy, I make it a point to continue to make eye contact and make sure my eyes are well scrunched into a smile so people can tell.

[WiseOne]

Definitely not ok with it....anyone want to start a poll to predict the course of events?

My guess is that the mask wearing, banning of large gatherings, work from home and other measures including restaurant restrictions and/or closures will linger as the "new normal" during flu season. The CDC has already started making noises to this effect. This will put a serious damper on the holidays and events like the Super Bowl, which will probably have to shift dates to avoid flu season.

I'm actually insanely happy about that last point. My specialty has long had a conference held in early December, which is a horrible time for a 1 week event requiring a lot of preparation. It also has traditionally been a guarantee that I'd get sick either from the plane trip or the conference itself, after which I develop a sinus infection requiring antibiotics and a 6-8 week recovery time. Result is that I've been sick for the holidays and all of January plus haven't been able to enjoy a Thanksgiving holiday for the past 15 years.

Otherwise, I am guessing that the current state of working from home, mask wearing in public, restricted travel and all the rest, is going to continue for at least another year or two, possibly as long as 3 years. I can only pray that city & state governments will realize sooner rather than later that losing half their small businesses and nearly all restaurants and entertainment businesses of all sizes would truly kill off the major cities for a decade or more.

[doodle]

kbg, I am liking a lot of your posts lately.

Maddy, I make it a point to continue to make eye contact and make sure my eyes are well scrunched into a smile so people can tell.

Yes, KBG is like a ray of sunshine for me in what seems like a heavy storm of antisocial right wing conspiracy propaganda. The tell tale sign here that this forum has become so unbalanced is that I feel like a marxist revolutionary here when I'm honestly right of center on almost every issue except the environment and birth control. Economically I'm very conservative. But, I can see how radical a system of corporatism and corporate welfare we have developed in this country. My anger towards this sometimes comes out sounding leftist when all I want is to stop bailing out billionaires.


I honestly can't identify with any of the fears expressed by the members here that masks are the first step towards totalitarianism. I wonder if Alex Jones in his hey day of insane conspiracy tirades would have even gone that far. I put a mask on when I go into a store or indoor area where I will be sharing airspace in relative close proximity with others. Even if it only reduces transmission chances by 20 percent it is such a minor inconvenience that I don't even give it much thought. When I walk back outside i take it off. I'd say 99% percent (if not more) of my time is spent not wearing a mask.

The coronavirus is a weird virus...anyone saying it's like the common cold is either completely misinformed or is lying out of their ass. The death rate compared to number of cases is many orders of magnitude higher and many who have survived have had a long arduous recovery with potentially lasting damage. Not to mention the health care system in this country is so f'ed that any potential stay in the hospital could set me back a years worth of salary or more.

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

[Mountaineer]

Re DDT. A perspective that mentioned some rather sad consequences of saving brown pelican eggs. I guess if I were a pelican I would prefer to have humans die rather than pelicans.

https://junkscience.com/2012/03/it-was- ... t-in-1972/

[doodle]

Re DDT. A perspective that mentioned some rather sad consequences of saving brown pelican eggs. I guess if I were a pelican I would prefer to have humans die rather than pelicans.

https://junkscience.com/2012/03/it-was- ... t-in-1972/

Fair enough, Im conservative when it comes to chemically experimenting with gods ecosystem but I can see the other side. Substitute using mercury as medicine...my point remains, retrograde nostalgic thinking is often clouded when it comes to reality.

[doodle]

In addition, one should remember that it is largely the right wing that is advancing anti science / anti vaccine arguments to the point of accusing Bill Gates of using them to implant microchips. It's a great science fiction plot line, but we are seeing the resurgence of smallpox, measles etc because of people's resistance to having their children inoculated. So, I find it ironic how you find an article supporting spraying clouds of DDT throughout neighborhoods, but probably frequent sites that support the chemtrails conspiracy theory.

[jalanlong]

Definitely not ok with it....anyone want to start a poll to predict the course of events?

My guess is that the mask wearing, banning of large gatherings, work from home and other measures including restaurant restrictions and/or closures will linger as the "new normal" during flu season. The CDC has already started making noises to this effect. This will put a serious damper on the holidays and events like the Super Bowl, which will probably have to shift dates to avoid flu season.

I'm actually insanely happy about that last point. My specialty has long had a conference held in early December, which is a horrible time for a 1 week event requiring a lot of preparation. It also has traditionally been a guarantee that I'd get sick either from the plane trip or the conference itself, after which I develop a sinus infection requiring antibiotics and a 6-8 week recovery time. Result is that I've been sick for the holidays and all of January plus haven't been able to enjoy a Thanksgiving holiday for the past 15 years.

Otherwise, I am guessing that the current state of working from home, mask wearing in public, restricted travel and all the rest, is going to continue for at least another year or two, possibly as long as 3 years. I can only pray that city & state governments will realize sooner rather than later that losing half their small businesses and nearly all restaurants and entertainment businesses of all sizes would truly kill off the major cities for a decade or more.

So if it were to last 3 years, why would it ever go back to normal? At a certain point don't people just forget what life was like before? And after that amount of time, wouldn't most people either a) have adjusted to the new life and have no desire to do those old things they used to do or 2) be scared to death to go back to the "dangerous" ways we used to live?

As an aside, I find it sort of funny that the entertainment industry is so on board with all of this. At a certain point it is going to disrupt their business right? If movie theaters die off then you would have to assume that $23 million contracts to make films would be gone as well. The majority of musicians make money on touring, not album streams/sales. If they can no longer tour, how will they make money? Especially legacy artists that only make money on touring. It is one thing for small business owners to say their business is dying. But if pro sports and the entertainment industry start to see their careers die, will that change the strategy? There are only so many jobs for "essential" workers.

[Hal]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

[doodle]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

In certain instances, yes. I think there have been overreactions. I don't feel it where I live. But I don't live in a densely populated urban area. I do not think this is the new normal. Then again, I don't know if the old normal was all that normal. In fact, in the course of human history, the last 100 years have been extremely abnormal so are we supposed to go back to the abnormal or should we return to the real normal as wandering packs of hunter gatherers? Where does normal start and stop?

[doodle]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

on a slight tangent from the thread topic, are you still comfortable with the Perth mint knowing it is in a country that is doing the stuff hal has been posting for us?

I don't have investments with Perth Mint. I am very wary of government in general..be it American or Australian. Gold confiscation happened before in United States during great depression.

On a related tangent to your tangent.

I think people confuse my criticism of Trump and the right as approval of the left. That would be mistaken. I support limited government...however, I think that in some arenas such as environmental regulation we need government interference to avoid public resources becoming private dumping grounds. I also believe in a power balance within society between labor and capital. I feel like workers have gotten shafted by capital throughout history and I would like to see that brought back into balance. Not through redistribution of wealth, but by paying workers their fair share of the productive effort they invest towards creating the things we enjoy. Labor has done a bad job of organizing and fighting for their value. They sell themselves too cheaply which is why we see a continued widening wealth gap. Generally I am uncomfortable with our entire banking system. I'll begin with the concept of debt as money and the private creation of credit. Our financial system as a whole is terrifying to me from the standpoint of fragility through complexity.

[Mountaineer]

In addition, one should remember that it is largely the right wing that is advancing anti science / anti vaccine arguments to the point of accusing Bill Gates of using them to implant microchips. It's a great science fiction plot line, but we are seeing the resurgence of smallpox, measles etc because of people's resistance to having their children inoculated. So, I find it ironic how you find an article supporting spraying clouds of DDT throughout neighborhoods, but probably frequent sites that support the chemtrails conspiracy theory.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories (unless I am reading a novel). I am a fan of good science (as most Chemical Engineers are). I’ve seen junk science believers and ‘courts’ be led astray way too often. I think the knee jerk of banning DDT was a big one that resulted in the death of many people. I am very familiar with the proper and improper use of chemicals, particularly pesticides. Life is full of risks and benefits. It is important to understand both, hopefully based on factual data for real - not the parroted mantra - before acting and reacting if possible. The ‘both’ is what I see lacking in many. I am definitely not an anti-vaxer. Of course I am prone to favor logic over emotion due to my personal make up and STEM education, while knowing that both are valuable, in most temporal matters. YMMV

[doodle]

In addition, one should remember that it is largely the right wing that is advancing anti science / anti vaccine arguments to the point of accusing Bill Gates of using them to implant microchips. It's a great science fiction plot line, but we are seeing the resurgence of smallpox, measles etc because of people's resistance to having their children inoculated. So, I find it ironic how you find an article supporting spraying clouds of DDT throughout neighborhoods, but probably frequent sites that support the chemtrails conspiracy theory.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories (unless I am reading a novel). I am a fan of good science (as most Chemical Engineers are). I’ve seen junk science believers and ‘courts’ be led astray way too often. I think the knee jerk of banning DDT was a big one that resulted in the death of many people. I am very familiar with the proper and improper use of chemicals, particularly pesticides. Life is full of risks and benefits. It is important to understand both, hopefully based on factual data for real - not the parroted mantra - before acting and reacting if possible. The ‘both’ is what I see lacking in many. I am definitely not an anti-vaxer. Of course I am prone to favor logic over emotion due to my personal make up and STEM education, while knowing that both are valuable, in most temporal matters. YMMV

With the caveat that it often takes decades if not longer for real data to emerge..by which time a lot of damage can be done. And also with the additional caveat that we are fooling ourselves if we think we understand the myriad of complex webs that exist within nature and that an abundance of caution should be brought to bear when employing expedient chemical solutions to problems lest we create bigger problems than the initial one we were trying to solve. I have a lot of admiration for mans cleverness, not so much for his wisdom. By that definition I consider myself conservative.

[WiseOne]

Yes doodle, that was the mindset that gave us the USDA food pyramid and the resulting explosion of obesity and diabetes.

You have to be really careful about unintended consequences before you make major, poorly thought out changes to society. Humanity has gone through way worse than this coronavirus. And btw the "many orders of magnitude worse" mortality is incredibly scientifically inaccurate....suggest you go do some reading on the subject. Hint, it has to do with the number that you pick as the denominator. If it's "total # infections", COVID is not actually worse than flu and the reason for the transient bump in excess deaths in a given locale is the sudden introduction to a naive population.

[Hal]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

on a slight tangent from the thread topic, are you still comfortable with the Perth mint knowing it is in a country that is doing the stuff hal has been posting for us?

Well, I am not comfortable and have moved most of my holdings overseas. Asides from the big players like GoldMoney, I can highly recommend SGPMX in Singapore. A close friend visited their facility and it is like something out of a James Bond movie.
https://sgpmx.com
http://www.singaporefreeport.com/#/services

[yankees60]

In addition, one should remember that it is largely the right wing that is advancing anti science / anti vaccine arguments to the point of accusing Bill Gates of using them to implant microchips. It's a great science fiction plot line, but we are seeing the resurgence of smallpox, measles etc because of people's resistance to having their children inoculated. So, I find it ironic how you find an article supporting spraying clouds of DDT throughout neighborhoods, but probably frequent sites that support the chemtrails conspiracy theory.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories (unless I am reading a novel). I am a fan of good science (as most Chemical Engineers are). I’ve seen junk science believers and ‘courts’ be led astray way too often. I think the knee jerk of banning DDT was a big one that resulted in the death of many people. I am very familiar with the proper and improper use of chemicals, particularly pesticides. Life is full of risks and benefits. It is important to understand both, hopefully based on factual data for real - not the parroted mantra - before acting and reacting if possible. The ‘both’ is what I see lacking in many. I am definitely not an anti-vaxer. Of course I am prone to favor logic over emotion due to my personal make up and STEM education, while knowing that both are valuable, in most temporal matters. YMMV

I join you in taking pride that we like to follow facts and use logic to make decisions and NOT go by the emotional response.

But, sad to say, as I keep reading the book - The Political Brain - all of us will trump "logic" by twisting our interpretations so that they meet our preconceived positions (which oftentimes ARE based on emotions).

Vinny

[doodle]

Yes doodle, that was the mindset that gave us the USDA food pyramid and the resulting explosion of obesity and diabetes.

You have to be really careful about unintended consequences before you make major, poorly thought out changes to society. Humanity has gone through way worse than this coronavirus. And btw the "many orders of magnitude worse" mortality is incredibly scientifically inaccurate....suggest you go do some reading on the subject. Hint, it has to do with the number that you pick as the denominator. If it's "total # infections", COVID is not actually worse than flu and the reason for the transient bump in excess deaths in a given locale is the sudden introduction to a naive population.

Isn't the problem figuring out the total number of infections? It's my understanding we don't have a clear picture of that.

I dont know if the usda food pyramid is at fault for exploding obesity. I would disagree with that. I think saturated fats combined with simple carbohydrates is a double whammy that has created what we see. All saturated fats no carbs..no obesity. All carbs no fat...no obesity. Combine the two and perfect storm. Of course there are other considerations as to health beyond just obesity. Our country has a penchant for this black or white thinking. I think the answer to the question of diet is probably very complex and based on myriad individual variables. Across the board though I think we can say that processed foods generally pretty bad...and that unfortunately comprises most Americans dietary calories.

[doodle]

In addition, one should remember that it is largely the right wing that is advancing anti science / anti vaccine arguments to the point of accusing Bill Gates of using them to implant microchips. It's a great science fiction plot line, but we are seeing the resurgence of smallpox, measles etc because of people's resistance to having their children inoculated. So, I find it ironic how you find an article supporting spraying clouds of DDT throughout neighborhoods, but probably frequent sites that support the chemtrails conspiracy theory.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories (unless I am reading a novel). I am a fan of good science (as most Chemical Engineers are). I’ve seen junk science believers and ‘courts’ be led astray way too often. I think the knee jerk of banning DDT was a big one that resulted in the death of many people. I am very familiar with the proper and improper use of chemicals, particularly pesticides. Life is full of risks and benefits. It is important to understand both, hopefully based on factual data for real - not the parroted mantra - before acting and reacting if possible. The ‘both’ is what I see lacking in many. I am definitely not an anti-vaxer. Of course I am prone to favor logic over emotion due to my personal make up and STEM education, while knowing that both are valuable, in most temporal matters. YMMV

I join you in taking pride that we like to follow facts and use logic to make decisions and NOT go by the emotional response.

But, sad to say, as I keep reading the book - The Political Brain - all of us will trump "logic" by twisting our interpretations so that they meet our preconceived positions (which oftentimes ARE based on emotions).

Vinny

Yes, very frustrating aspect of human behavior. It's one reason why I love nature. There is no room for debate or discussion. Wrong answer usually equates to death.

[pp4me]

Whatever the new normal turns out to be I'm pretty sure it won't care if I'm okay with it or not.

Just one more challenge in finding freedom in an unfree world.

[jalanlong]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

on a slight tangent from the thread topic, are you still comfortable with the Perth mint knowing it is in a country that is doing the stuff hal has been posting for us?

Ugh. My gold holdings are in the Perth Mint Gold ETF. I figured it was more likely the gold was "there" then using GLD or IAU.

i have been keeping Perth mint in the back of my mind as a viable option if my circumstances allowed...
but now not so much.. I am kind getting the feeling that a pregnant woman is all there is going to be between the vault and the government thugs...

[I Shrugged]

Hal, in many US states, the citizens and local authorities would have no part of regs like Victoria's. There would be widespread civil disobedience. Other, liberal states would probably go along but I think there would still be a lot of civil disobedience.

To illustrate, there have been many localities where the county prosecutor announced that no one will be prosecuted for a mask violation or the like.

For the life of me I cannot understand regs that require masks outdoors, prohibit beach-going, and such. What do they think they are accomplishing? Do they think people are catching Covid outdoors? Or do they just think that total control will produce better compliance?

As to the original question, no I'm not okay with an endless version of this. Society should open up, and let each of us decide our own risk management.

[Hal]

I'm also tired of hearing folksy stories about how we didn't use to wear masks in the past blah blah blah. Yes, we did lots of stupid things in the past. Sure, we survived as a species but I lived next door to a man who spent his life in a wheelchair because he contracted polio as a child. We built lead smelter stacks next to neighborhoods, we painted our walls with lead and sprayed our neighborhoods with DDT. Bad ideas, all of those.

Agreed, I would be happy to just wear a mask. But how about having a curfew, being arrested for incitement for Facebook posts, and not being able to travel more than 5Km from your house for over 3 months. My point is the Government is over-reacting

My apologies if I sound a bit harsh, but would you really be comfortable with this happening in the USA
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6187281869001

on a slight tangent from the thread topic, are you still comfortable with the Perth mint knowing it is in a country that is doing the stuff hal has been posting for us?

Ugh. My gold holdings are in the Perth Mint Gold ETF. I figured it was more likely the gold was "there" then using GLD or IAU.

I am sure the gold is there. Just have a plan B in place in case there is a change in the Federal Government in the 2021 elections.
My suggestion, just open an account in another depository elsewhere in case some "Crazies" get elected, then forget it for a year.
After all, 3/4 of your assets aren't here

ps:https://www.adamseconomics.com/post/wil ... -your-gold
Note especially:

Part IV contains legislative provisions providing the Governor-General with the legal power to sign a proclamation requiring all gold in Australia, except for gold coins or ‘wrought’ gold, to be handed over to the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA), within a month, in exchange for legal tender.

You could just convert the ETF to an Allocated account of Gold Coins in the meantime.
Not that I would ever suggest a way to get around the law
https://www.perthmint.com/storage/depos ... ogram.html