How Do You Know You're Not In North Korea?

[Smith1776]

I am preparing for work so I will have to make this relatively quick. I do have a philosophical question for the community.

We are all aware that the state has in its interest to control the flow of information that reaches its citizens. This includes actual facts as well as the narrative surrounding said facts. North Korea is the most obvious example. North Koreans suffer through a distorted view of reality. They are fed propaganda that North Koreans enjoy an insanely high standard of living and that Kim Jong Un is divine, etc.

That may be an extreme example, but every citizen of just about every country experiences a certain degree of this kind of manipulation. China is probably the second best example, with whole parts of the internet censored and blocked.

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

[Mountaineer]

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

Physically travel to places outside of my little bubble and observe, and talk to people who live there. Listen, watch, try to understand the underlying truths (truths, not narratives), ask questions, process vs. objective standards; wash rinse and repeat.

Discernment is a wonderful gift.

.

[pp4me]

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

I watch Fox News.

[Libertarian666]

I watch Fox News in the evening. The hosts present evidence for their positions. I don't always agree with them, but at least they have something to back up what they say.
This is very unlike the other cable "news" channels, which are all "Orange Man Bad" all the time.

[Libertarian666]

i read between the lines... watch for charged words, appeals to emotion, straw-men arguments, Ad hominem attacks. (pretty much any logical fallacy) watching the way things get said gives a much fuller picture, and reveals the distorted view of reality being pushed on you, and "voila" your news is now not just feeding you a point of view, it gives you insight into the point of view being pushed, and a inkling of why they want you to conform to their chosen reality tunnel....
and this works for information received from across the political spectrum, and converts what you see in advertising into the manipulative propaganda it truly is...

edit to add -- also -- follow the money ! follow the power !
knowing who profits, who gets power is the most common answer to the "why do they want me to think this way question"

If something in the "news" is logically incoherent, you can assume it's propaganda. There's no harm in making that mistake in the rare cases when it's just stupidity.

[dualstow]

...Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

I am grateful that I live in a country where the leader can be openly criticized. Whether it’s news or social media, there are points made for and against the President and other gov’t officials instead of just “the President blessed another fine sorghum harvest today.” I can choose which points make more sense to me. I may be way off in my judgement, but it’s my call.

Pre-pandemic, I could hop on a plane. During this pandemic, i have been on a train.

It may indeed be an illusion, but I feel free.

Thank you, Smithers. I enjoyed the exercise.

[yankees60]

I am preparing for work so I will have to make this relatively quick. I do have a philosophical question for the community.

We are all aware that the state has in its interest to control the flow of information that reaches its citizens. This includes actual facts as well as the narrative surrounding said facts. North Korea is the most obvious example. North Koreans suffer through a distorted view of reality. They are fed propaganda that North Koreans enjoy an insanely high standard of living and that Kim Jong Un is divine, etc.

That may be an extreme example, but every citizen of just about every country experiences a certain degree of this kind of manipulation. China is probably the second best example, with whole parts of the internet censored and blocked.

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

Does Canada have a C-Span equivalent?

If not go to C-Span.org and watch any episode of Washington Journal and see if you not are not convinced there is a near total free flow of information in the United States.

Vinny

[dualstow]

I am grateful that I live in a country where the leader can be openly criticized.

What is hilarious in a sad way is that "the resistance" keeps calling Trump "Hitler". If he were anything like Hitler, they would have been rounded up and executed long ago.

But of course they won't admit that he is anything but a tyrant, as that would upset their narrative.

Indeed. I have a German friend who said we're living in a fascist country now, his credentials being that he's from Germany. He's young.

[jalanlong]

...Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

I am grateful that I live in a country where the leader can be openly criticized. Whether it’s news or social media, there are points made for and against the President and other gov’t officials instead of just “the President blessed another fine sorghum harvest today.” I can choose which points make more sense to me. I may be way off in my judgement, but it’s my call.

Pre-pandemic, I could hop on a plane. During this pandemic, i have been on a train.

It may indeed be an illusion, but I feel free.

Thank you, Smithers. I enjoyed the exercise.

What is hilarious in a sad way is that "the resistance" keeps calling Trump "Hitler". If he were anything like Hitler, they would have been rounded up and executed long ago.

But of course they won't admit that he is anything but a tyrant, as that would upset their narrative.

Don't you like how when Republicans tried to stall Obama policies they were known as "do-nothings" and "obstructionist" but when Democrats are blocking anything Trump does they are "The Resistance"? That is the sort of thing I look for when reading news articles. I immediately know I am hearing propaganda when I see two exact same situations reported differently based on the persons or party involved. Like when Obama said "I have a pen and a phone" to override Congress and he was applauded for his leadership. But when Trump does an executive order they call him an authoritarian. I need consistency in order for me to feel like I am getting a true story.

[yankees60]

I am preparing for work so I will have to make this relatively quick. I do have a philosophical question for the community.

We are all aware that the state has in its interest to control the flow of information that reaches its citizens. This includes actual facts as well as the narrative surrounding said facts. North Korea is the most obvious example. North Koreans suffer through a distorted view of reality. They are fed propaganda that North Koreans enjoy an insanely high standard of living and that Kim Jong Un is divine, etc.

That may be an extreme example, but every citizen of just about every country experiences a certain degree of this kind of manipulation. China is probably the second best example, with whole parts of the internet censored and blocked.

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

Does Canada have a C-Span equivalent?

If not go to C-Span.org and watch any episode of Washington Journal and see if you not are not convinced there is a near total free flow of information in the United States.

Vinny

What would a CSPAN presenter do if someone threatened violence against a Democrat?
Probably not completely ignore it as happened here:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbauma ... s-n2573241

You've just perfectly illustrated the neutral-ness of C-Span!

You - one of the most fervent Trump supporters around - dig this up to be critical of C-Span, implying they are biased. While my friend, the total opposite of you - a Warren / Biden supporter digs out some survey that purports to show that C-Span is biased towards conservatives!

Every day there are callers accusing the host of being biased toward the liberal side while other callers will accuse the same host of being biased toward the conservative side. A true sign of neutral programming!

You watch too much other programming whereby the hosts are advocates of one side or the other.

That is not the job of the C-Span hosts. They are to be as neutral as possible, allowing the callers to state what they believe. It is not the job of the hosts to challenge the callers or even correct their mis-statements. That is the job of other callers to do. Or, the guests who are on.

Vinny

[WiseOne]

...Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

I am grateful that I live in a country where the leader can be openly criticized.

Really???

The President is about all you can safely criticize openly without risk of losing your job and potentially being sued or prosecuted. And, you're not allowed to do anything BUT criticize him.

Anonymous message boards like this are all that's left of free speech.

Actually there is one exception: NYC's mayor. He's unpopular enough that criticizing him is one of this city's favorite forms of entertainment.

[Libertarian666]

...Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

I am grateful that I live in a country where the leader can be openly criticized.

Really???

The President is about all you can safely criticize openly without risk of losing your job and potentially being sued or prosecuted. And, you're not allowed to do anything BUT criticize him.

Anonymous message boards like this are all that's left of free speech.

Actually there is one exception: NYC's mayor. He's unpopular enough that criticizing him is one of this city's favorite forms of entertainment.

That reminds me of the joke in which a Russian said that the US and Russia are just alike in political speech: In the US you can criticize the US President, and in Russia you can also criticize the US President.

[dualstow]

Really???

The President is about all you can safely criticize openly without risk of losing your job and potentially being sued or prosecuted. And, you're not allowed to do anything BUT criticize him.

Anonymous message boards like this are all that's left of free speech.

Actually there is one exception: NYC's mayor. He's unpopular enough that criticizing him is one of this city's favorite forms of entertainment.

Who do you feel you can’t criticize, WiseOne? Schumer? Pelosi?

[Mark Leavy]

i read between the lines... watch for charged words, appeals to emotion, straw-men arguments, Ad hominem attacks. (pretty much any logical fallacy) watching the way things get said gives a much fuller picture, and reveals the distorted view of reality being pushed on you, and "voila" your news is now not just feeding you a point of view, it gives you insight into the point of view being pushed, and a inkling of why they want you to conform to their chosen reality tunnel....
and this works for information received from across the political spectrum, and converts what you see in advertising into the manipulative propaganda it truly is...



edit to add -- also -- follow the money ! follow the power !
knowing who profits, who gets power is the most common answer to the "why do they want me to think this way question"

I was about to say this, except not nearly as well as Simon did. This really is it.

Language, and the choice of words is extremely powerful. The instant that I detect the use of charged words to describe what should be simple facts, I immediately stop reading, or switch the content off. I do this in pure self defense. Even if you know what is happening, continuing to listen/read will rewire your brain. You have to shut it off.

Also, I agree with Mountaineer. Get outside and talk to as many real people as you can. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I tend to eat a lot of my evening meals sitting at a bar.

I will engage with whomever is willing. Light questions and banter. Quite frequently complete strangers will open up and talk about what is really important to them. What you see on the news generally has little to do with the real life concerns that people have.

[yankees60]

I am preparing for work so I will have to make this relatively quick. I do have a philosophical question for the community.

We are all aware that the state has in its interest to control the flow of information that reaches its citizens. This includes actual facts as well as the narrative surrounding said facts. North Korea is the most obvious example. North Koreans suffer through a distorted view of reality. They are fed propaganda that North Koreans enjoy an insanely high standard of living and that Kim Jong Un is divine, etc.

That may be an extreme example, but every citizen of just about every country experiences a certain degree of this kind of manipulation. China is probably the second best example, with whole parts of the internet censored and blocked.

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

Does Canada have a C-Span equivalent?

If not go to C-Span.org and watch any episode of Washington Journal and see if you not are not convinced there is a near total free flow of information in the United States.

Vinny

What would a CSPAN presenter do if someone threatened violence against a Democrat?
Probably not completely ignore it as happened here:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbauma ... s-n2573241

You've just perfectly illustrated the neutral-ness of C-Span!

You - one of the most fervent Trump supporters around - dig this up to be critical of C-Span, implying they are biased. While my friend, the total opposite of you - a Warren / Biden supporter digs out some survey that purports to show that C-Span is biased towards conservatives!

Every day there are callers accusing the host of being biased toward the liberal side while other callers will accuse the same host of being biased toward the conservative side. A true sign of neutral programming!

You watch too much other programming whereby the hosts are advocates of one side or the other.

That is not the job of the C-Span hosts. They are to be as neutral as possible, allowing the callers to state what they believe. It is not the job of the hosts to challenge the callers or even correct their mis-statements. That is the job of other callers to do. Or, the guests who are on.

Vinny

Ok, then find a clip where a caller suggests violence against leftists and the host ignores it.
If you can, I'll admit you are right.

You are way too tied up in watching advocacy programming. C-Span hosts are NOT allowed to inject their opinions. I've been watching several of them for decades now and I have zero idea where any of them stand politically.

It's the job of the other callers and guests to give THEIR opinions. But the hosts NEVER do.

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

You are way too tied up in watching advocacy programming. C-Span hosts are NOT allowed to inject their opinions. I've been watching several of them for decades now and I have zero idea where any of them stand politically.

It's the job of the other callers and guests to give THEIR opinions. But the hosts NEVER do.

Vinny

Ok, maybe you're right. I can't find any obviously valid criticism of them as being biased online and I don't watch them so I can't comment from my own observations.

[glennds]

I was about to say this, except not nearly as well as Simon did. This really is it.

Language, and the choice of words is extremely powerful. The instant that I detect the use of charged words to describe what should be simple facts, I immediately stop reading, or switch the content off. I do this in pure self defense. Even if you know what is happening, continuing to listen/read will rewire your brain. You have to shut it off.

Also, I agree with Mountaineer. Get outside and talk to as many real people as you can. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I tend to eat a lot of my evening meals sitting at a bar.

I will engage with whomever is willing. Light questions and banter. Quite frequently complete strangers will open up and talk about what is really important to them. What you see on the news generally has little to do with the real life concerns that people have.

Your post brought back memories of the renowned investor Peter Lynch who said walking around in the local mall, striking up conversations with customers and employees informed more of his investment decisions than analyst reports or professional research. Of course this was back when malls were something different than they are today.

Was it Covey or Tom Peters that promoted the same idea called Management by Walking Around as the best way to become credibly informed in a corporate setting? Tribal knowledge it can also be called.
And as everyone knows, if you want to know anything about anything, ask a bartender. With the exception of AOC maybe? Or not?

[dualstow]

...
And as everyone knows, if you want to know anything about anything, ask a bartender. With the exception of AOC maybe? Or not?

I wonder if anyone on this forum got to the word bartender and didn’t immediately think of AOC

[WiseOne]

Really???

The President is about all you can safely criticize openly without risk of losing your job and potentially being sued or prosecuted. And, you're not allowed to do anything BUT criticize him.

Anonymous message boards like this are all that's left of free speech.

Actually there is one exception: NYC's mayor. He's unpopular enough that criticizing him is one of this city's favorite forms of entertainment.

Who do you feel you can’t criticize, WiseOne? Schumer? Pelosi?

Let me put it this way. If you breathe a word that anyone can call "racist" while doing something completely unrelated to work (and that's an amazingly low bar these days) you can be fired. It's happened to several people. Does that answer your question?

BTW i2start...very well put. That's exactly how I read the news. For example, today there was a little gem in the Wall Street Journal about how the shape of the coronavirus case curve in developing countries is different from that in large cities like New York - it's a much slower rise and longer plateau (so far).

So far so good, right? Except that the article stuffed in a little phrase about how the steep curve and fast peak in NYC was due to lockdowns and mask wearing. Say what???? With whom was that information verified by the writer and on what basis? Also, it doesn't even make sense: if those things are the primary determinant, how is that a country that did not lock down or wear masks has a slower upswing in cases? Obvious answer, lockdowns and mask wearing are not major factors in the shape of the curve.

Thus, the hidden agenda here is to indoctrinate you regarding the value of lockdowns and mask wearing. Which is itself useful information.

[shekels]

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

You have Google that restrict information in the U.S. Now , even without Government intervention.
Between inhibiting search results and the scrubbing of the internet your scope of information in being reduced.

With the 6 Corporations that Control 90% Of The Media In the U.S., You have to be careful.

[dualstow]

Really???

The President is about all you can safely criticize openly without risk of losing your job and potentially being sued or prosecuted. And, you're not allowed to do anything BUT criticize him.

Anonymous message boards like this are all that's left of free speech.

Actually there is one exception: NYC's mayor. He's unpopular enough that criticizing him is one of this city's favorite forms of entertainment.

Who do you feel you can’t criticize, WiseOne? Schumer? Pelosi?

Let me put it this way. If you breathe a word that anyone can call "racist" while doing something completely unrelated to work (and that's an amazingly low bar these days) you can be fired. It's happened to several people. Does that answer your question?

BTW i2start...very well put. That's exactly how I read the news. For example, today there was a little gem in the Wall Street Journal about how the shape of the coronavirus case curve in developing countries is different from that in large cities like New York - it's a much slower rise and longer plateau (so far).

So far so good, right? Except that the article stuffed in a little phrase about how the steep curve and fast peak in NYC was due to lockdowns and mask wearing. Say what???? With whom was that information verified by the writer and on what basis? Also, it doesn't even make sense: if those things are the primary determinant, how is that a country that did not lock down or wear masks has a slower upswing in cases? Obvious answer, lockdowns and mask wearing are not major factors in the shape of the curve.

Thus, the hidden agenda here is to indoctrinate you regarding the value of lockdowns and mask wearing. Which is itself useful information.

This is a safe space, WiseOne. You can speak more directly here.

[Libertarian666]

Let me put it this way. If you breathe a word that anyone can call "racist" while doing something completely unrelated to work (and that's an amazingly low bar these days) you can be fired. It's happened to several people. Does that answer your question?

I'm so happy that I'm not working for someone else so I can't be fired for being politically incorrect.

[yankees60]

Governments even in supposedly free countries can prevent Google from showing you search results. It often will literally say that on your search result page. (Saying something like we are omitting search results due to such and such law.)

The other day I was thinking to myself that I'm so glad that I don't live in China or North Korea... that we have incredible freedom of information here. But do I really? Or is that just what the state is telling me? North Koreans think they live in a utopia too. Why am I so confident my country is really so great when it comes to the problem of misinformation?

So here's a question for you: how do you come to a satisfactory conclusion that you don't live in your own little North Korea? How do you try to minimize bias in the information your brain absorbs?

You have Google that restrict information in the U.S. Now , even without Government intervention.
Between inhibiting search results and the scrubbing of the internet your scope of information in being reduced.

With the 6 Corporations that Control 90% Of The Media In the U.S., You have to be careful.

Does this also apply to Bing? Since 2013 I've using Bing exclusively (except for Google Book search).

It looks like Bing only has 6% of the market share while Google has over 90%.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/ ... rried.aspx

Vinny

[yankees60]

Let me put it this way. If you breathe a word that anyone can call "racist" while doing something completely unrelated to work (and that's an amazingly low bar these days) you can be fired. It's happened to several people. Does that answer your question?

I'm so happy that I'm not working for someone else so I can't be fired for being politically incorrect.

But I heard your employer can be quite demanding of you!

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

Let me put it this way. If you breathe a word that anyone can call "racist" while doing something completely unrelated to work (and that's an amazingly low bar these days) you can be fired. It's happened to several people. Does that answer your question?

I'm so happy that I'm not working for someone else so I can't be fired for being politically incorrect.

But I heard your employer can be quite demanding of you!

Vinny

True, but fortunately I can always quit if he's too demanding.