Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by Mark Leavy »

CT-Scott wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:34 pm My personal beliefs, based largely on my personal Christian beliefs, do put some value in the concept of "rights" as being a "thing" worth discussing/debating, though I try to use the term "natural rights", as I want to be inclusive of non-Christians and find common ground on the topic.
CT, I sincerely appreciate your considered and deliberate responses. It makes contentious debate so much nicer. How many places can you find good solid debate at this level? Well done.

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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by dualstow »

Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:26 pm
CT-Scott wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:08 pm And one more comment on my earlier rant on IP theft...

I don't think it matters one way or another whether we can all come to agreement on what is right or wrong or moral or immoral. It's irrelevant. Morality and legality don't even factor in.

I fully acknowledge the right of low life scum to try and steal stuff from me. Hey, baby needs new shoes... I'm not judging. You low life scum.
You've lost me a bit. I *do* think it's important to try to peacefully convince someone of the morality of an issue, if you think their position is immoral. I also don't think anyone would/should say that low life scum have a "right" to steal from someone. That seems like an odd use of the term "right."
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:08 pmBut I don't have to make it easy for you. Lock that shit up.
As it relates to ideas/inventions/software, I completely agree that one way for someone who wants to profit off of some software they've developed would be to "lock it up" (e.g., via some form of copy protection). Some other approaches would include offering frequent, useful, and free updates, such that it would be in a person's best interest to be a legitimate customer of yours and have easy access to those updates. If the software is complicated, a members-only support forum is another idea. There are plenty of ways that you can encourage people to buy your software, rather than try to "steal" it.

That said, you also don't want to spend more time trying to improve your copy protection than you're spending improving the software itself, or else you have your priorities backwards, IMO.
I use "right" in the same way Harry Browne did. As in they don't exist in any form. The only "rights" you have are the ones you have power or influence to make happen. Thus, knowing that I can't prevent thieves from trying to steal, I acknowledge that this is part of the real world we live in. It is ridiculous for me to argue that they shoudn't do that. They WILL do that. The only reasonable thing for me to do is to throw in roadblocks.

And, yes, any decent business person will calculate the tradeoffs. How much resource to put into copy protection versus how much to put into accelerated innovation versus how much to punch back with lawyers, etc. That goes without saying. Business 101.
It seems like the creative/productive class used their power and influence to lobby government to create IP protection laws. Was it their "right" to do so? And was it government's "right" to go along with that? I would say it was. Not being a creative/productive person, I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than the self-righteous enjoyment I get from looking badly on people who pirate music/software/content instead of being willing to pay the market rate for enjoyment of those products.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
What is it? And, perhaps I'm off base in following this discussion, but I see a difference between the stake in the ground that defines "right and wrong" and the term "rights" that is being discussed. I see a difference between each individual saying "that is right by what I think" (an internally sourced definition that is probably different for most of us) and a collective society saying what the agreed upon external source of "right and wrong" is. I still don't think I'm seeing an answer to "what is that sourse of absolute right and wrong". Can anyone clarify?
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by CT-Scott »

Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pmCT, I sincerely appreciate your considered and deliberate responses. It makes contentious debate so much nicer. How many places can you find good solid debate at this level? Well done.
Mark, I'm sort of new to this forum (well, I joined about 10 years ago, I think, but then the forum software changed and my account was removed, so I just re-joined recently), so I haven't seen many of your posts recently, but thank you very much for the compliment. I've always loved to debate (sometimes I wonder if I would have been happiest had I pursued becoming a lawyer...I also really enjoyed my philosophy classes in college, and took a couple of extra ones as electives), but it makes me sad when people get into arguments/fights when debating (something I've experienced with family get-togethers). We all have our biases, and sometimes they're both strong and subconscious, but I try to be very conscious of that. I try to honestly listen to both sides. In fact, I sometimes like to take the "devil's advocate" position to think through something that can be more of the opposite position that I hold.

Anyway, at this point, this debate is largely philosophical. The law supports IP rights, even if I consider it to be immoral. I believe that tax is theft/immoral, but that isn't changing anytime soon (probably never). As someone who is navigating this world while also trying to stay on the "right side of the fence" morality-wise, and who also looks for ways to live as "free" as possible in an un-free world (combined with being cognizant of wanting to avoid being imprisoned or killed for being too bold by living out beliefs which are on the opposite side of whichever government you're subject to), it can certainly get complicated.

[I started to go crazy writing up my random thoughts about slavery in the USA years ago and how even that was likely a complicated topic back in the day, but that started to look like a short novella, so I deleted that for tonight. Maybe another day.]
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:17 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
What is it? And, perhaps I'm off base in following this discussion, but I see a difference between the stake in the ground that defines "right and wrong" and the term "rights" that is being discussed. I see a difference between each individual saying "that is right by what I think" (an internally sourced definition that is probably different for most of us) and a collective society saying what the agreed upon external source of "right and wrong" is. I still don't think I'm seeing an answer to "what is that sourse of absolute right and wrong". Can anyone clarify?
This article states a hypothesis: An Evolutionary Theory of Right and Wrong

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/heal ... 1book.html

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by nskinsella »

Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:08 pm And one more comment on my earlier rant on IP theft...

I don't think it matters one way or another whether we can all come to agreement on what is right or wrong or moral or immoral. It's irrelevant. Morality and legality don't even factor in.

I fully acknowledge the right of low life scum to try and steal stuff from me. Hey, baby needs new shoes... I'm not judging. You low life scum.

But I don't have to make it easy for you. Lock that shit up.
Notice you are mixing different things together. Yes, as for the latter--you can take whatever steps you want. I write about some strategies in my monograph Do Business Without Intellectual Property http://www.stephankinsella.com/2014/10/ ... -property/

but earlier you say that morality legality don't matter. Yet... we are talking about what the law ought to be, which is a normative issue: it involves morality and legality: the question is what "should" or "ought" (morality) the law (law) to be?

and you reinforce this by calling someone who copies "scum" and their actions "stealing". To call an action theft you are presupposing property rights--which is what the law protects. So this entire way of looking at it, is what we call circular reasoning, or question-begging. In other words, if the question is, *should there be a law against copying* (this is a moral-legal-political-normative issue), then you can't answer it by calling copying "stealing" since this loads the question and presupposes the thing that is in question. Do you follow?
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by nskinsella »

Libertarian666 wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:47 pm
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:58 pm The current plan is to form a company and sell the IP to one of a couple of identified customers.
But we haven't made the determination whether it would be better to keep it a trade secret rather than go for a patent.
Making that determination is the next step in the business plan.
The patent might be necessary then. Either way, it sounds like you have good counsel.
I think so, and it's pretty important because this IP could be extremely valuable.
There is no doubt that given our current system, some patents can be valuable, and many businesses, entrepreneurs, etc., ought to spend some resources acquiring patent portfolios. That's how I've made my living for 25 or so years--helping companies acquire patents. But that does not mean such laws are justified.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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nskinsella wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:48 pm
Notice you are mixing different things together. Yes, as for the latter--you can take whatever steps you want. I write about some strategies in my monograph Do Business Without Intellectual Property http://www.stephankinsella.com/2014/10/ ... -property/

but earlier you say that morality legality don't matter. Yet... we are talking about what the law ought to be, which is a normative issue: it involves morality and legality: the question is what "should" or "ought" (morality) the law (law) to be?

and you reinforce this by calling someone who copies "scum" and their actions "stealing". To call an action theft you are presupposing property rights--which is what the law protects. So this entire way of looking at it, is what we call circular reasoning, or question-begging. In other words, if the question is, *should there be a law against copying* (this is a moral-legal-political-normative issue), then you can't answer it by calling copying "stealing" since this loads the question and presupposes the thing that is in question. Do you follow?
I appreciate the comments, Stephen. Even though my writing is a bit acerbic, I think we're largely on the same page. I honestly don't spend any energy worrying about what the laws or societal norms should be in reference to intellectual property rights. I just adjust my actions to maximize my own utility in light of whatever the reality is. And I use that in a very broad sense, meaning what is best for my whole life over my lifetime.

As for my apparent contradiction about relative morality... my humor sometimes falls flat.
I'm not judging. You low life scum. sounded funny when I wrote it. Hey, I'm an engineer.

I have strong opinions, true that. But I don't believe anyone else has to agree with me. I advertise my opinions so people don't have to guess where I stand. Where anyone else stands? I can take it or leave it. But, I'm gonna lock my shit up.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:28 pm I appreciate the comments, Stephen. Even though my writing is a bit acerbic, I think we're largely on the same page. I honestly don't spend any energy worrying about what the laws or societal norms should be in reference to intellectual property rights. I just adjust my actions to maximize my own utility in light of whatever the reality is. And I use that in a very broad sense, meaning what is best for my whole life over my lifetime.

As for my apparent contradiction about relative morality... my humor sometimes falls flat.
I'm not judging. You low life scum. sounded funny when I wrote it. Hey, I'm an engineer.

I have strong opinions, true that. But I don't believe anyone else has to agree with me. I advertise my opinions so people don't have to guess where I stand. Where anyone else stands? I can take it or leave it. But, I'm gonna lock my shit up.
But the thing is, for *most* creative work... you can't "lock it up." If you write a novel, or make a movie, the nature of the good is that you want it made public so people will see it, and some of them hopefully pay you something. And for most inventions, it's the same thing--the trade secret approach doesn't work well for most things. If you sell your new mousetrap or new car with some innovative features you are gonna explain in the advertising and in commercials what's so great and unique about it. And others can easily then figure it out and reverse engineer it. It's almost impossible to keep your ideas secret, and also find a way to profit off of them. The two things are usually in conflict.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

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dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
Since you bring it up, an interesting bit of trivia: the oldest work in the world still under copyright is none other than the King James Bible from 1611. The copyright only applies in England, where it's known as the "Authorised Version".
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by nskinsella »

Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:07 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
Since you bring it up, an interesting bit of trivia: the oldest work in the world still under copyright is none other than the King James Bible from 1611. The copyright only applies in England, where it's known as the "Authorised Version".
I do not believe this is correct.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by Xan »

nskinsella wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:15 pm
Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:07 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
Since you bring it up, an interesting bit of trivia: the oldest work in the world still under copyright is none other than the King James Bible from 1611. The copyright only applies in England, where it's known as the "Authorised Version".
I do not believe this is correct.
Well, it's true I didn't personally research it before posting. I hope I haven't posted fake news. But some quick searching seems to back up something like it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_cop ... ed_Kingdom
Crown copyright applies "[w]here a work is made by Her Majesty or by an officer or servant of the Crown in the course of his duties". The Crown can also have copyrights assigned to it. There is, in addition, a small class of materials where the Crown claims the right to control reproduction outside normal copyright law due to letters patent issued under the royal prerogative. This material includes the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer.
Perhaps "royal prerogative" is different from copyright in some important way.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by Mountaineer »

yankees60 wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:37 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:17 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
What is it? And, perhaps I'm off base in following this discussion, but I see a difference between the stake in the ground that defines "right and wrong" and the term "rights" that is being discussed. I see a difference between each individual saying "that is right by what I think" (an internally sourced definition that is probably different for most of us) and a collective society saying what the agreed upon external source of "right and wrong" is. I still don't think I'm seeing an answer to "what is that sourse of absolute right and wrong". Can anyone clarify?
This article states a hypothesis: An Evolutionary Theory of Right and Wrong

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/heal ... 1book.html

Vinny
That NYT article was interesting. I think I've read it before, or at least a lot of the material that was discussed, such as the train scenario. The "evolutionary hypothesis" seems somewhat similar to the "natural law" topic that has bounced around for at least a couple thousand years. Man certainly does have a curiosity penchant that seems to be built in somehow. FWIW, I think I'd rather depend on a Creator for the source of right and wrong than on a random assortment of chemicals --> genes/animals that have to die to somehow magically evolve to give us the sense of right and wrong. What if the next iteration misaligns those genes and we all become canibalistic psycho killers? ;)

See the link for more on natural law.
http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... NATURALLAW
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by dualstow »

Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:07 pm ... an interesting bit of trivia: the oldest work in the world still under copyright is none other than the King James Bible from 1611. The copyright only applies in England, where it's known as the "Authorised Version".
nskinsella wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:15 pm I do not believe this is correct.
Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:31 pm Well, it's true I didn't personally research it before posting. I hope I haven't posted fake news. But some quick searching seems to back up something like it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_cop ... ed_Kingdom
Crown copyright applies "[w]here a work is made by Her Majesty or by an officer or servant of the Crown in the course of his duties". The Crown can also have copyrights assigned to it. There is, in addition, a small class of materials where the Crown claims the right to control reproduction outside normal copyright law due to letters patent issued under the royal prerogative. This material includes the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer.
Perhaps "royal prerogative" is different from copyright in some important way.
More here, which supports Xan's post: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Jame ... ght_status
Includes the rest of the United Kingdom.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by nskinsella »

Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:31 pm
nskinsella wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:15 pm
Xan wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:07 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
Since you bring it up, an interesting bit of trivia: the oldest work in the world still under copyright is none other than the King James Bible from 1611. The copyright only applies in England, where it's known as the "Authorised Version".
I do not believe this is correct.
Well, it's true I didn't personally research it before posting. I hope I haven't posted fake news. But some quick searching seems to back up something like it:....
Perhaps "royal prerogative" is different from copyright in some important way.
Yes, just read the article. It appears to expire after x years just like other copyright. There is no current copyright in existence that is based on 400 year old works. As far as I know. So I think your statement was just factually incorrect. Not that it's really relevant. It doesn't matter, really, if copyrights lasts 14 years, or 100 years, or 400 years. It's unjust in any case. BUt I don't see what good it does to be inaccurate in describing the legal contours of the current IP system.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by CT-Scott »

dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
As I mentioned before, I like to use the term "natural rights" to avoid conflict with atheists, etc. Take it for what it's worth (I think this is too brief), but here's what this Wikipedia page has to say...

Natural rights
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rights
Natural rights are rights that believe it is important for all humans and animals to have out of natural law. These rights are often viewed as inalienable, meaning they can almost never be taken away. The concept of what are natural rights has varied throughout history.

The idea first came up in ancient times but was discussed most famously by English philosopher John Locke in the sixteen hundreds. Locke said that the most important natural rights are "Life, Liberty, and Property". In the United States Declaration of Independence, the natural rights mentioned are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". The idea was also found in the Declaration of the Rights of Man. It is viewed by Locke, Jefferson, and others that the purpose of government is to protect peoples' natural rights through a social contract (an implicit agreement among the members of a society to cooperate for social benefits). There have been many times in history that natural rights have been breached by both governments and singular people.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by CT-Scott »

Doing a bit more Googling on "Natural rights" I found this lengthy article written by Murray Rothbard:

Introduction to Natural Law
https://mises.org/library/introduction-natural-law

It includes this quote from Professor James A. Sadowsky, from his book "Private Property and Collective Ownership":
When we say that one has the right to do certain things we mean this and only this, that it would be immoral for another, alone or in combination, to stop him from doing this by the use of physical force or the threat thereof. We do not mean that any use a man makes of his property within the limits set forth is necessarily a moral use.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by stuper1 »

Does a society have the "natural right" to set up a framework of common laws that they believe to be in the collective self interest? If they decide to do that, can they extend the idea of property rights to things that are not considered inalienable property rights under "natural law"?
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by dualstow »

I think about the competition of rights (and perceived rights) a lot. Rights infringing on others rights.

Reading about Monsanto in the distant past, I came upon an extreme example of what I consider the abuse of IP. To greatly simplify the story: some of their patented seeds blew over from one farm, that of a Monsanto customer, into a another farm, that of a holdout. Monsanto discovered some of their copyrighted crops on this holdout's farm and promptly sued him.

Apologies to to Mr Kinsella in advance: this feels wrong. O0 It may have been on this forum that I read about Hungary using its military to destroy some crops that popped up from GMO seeds blown across the border. Probably posted by Medium Tex or Pointed Stick. I want to say they used tanks with flamethrowers to raze the crops but that may be my imagination creating a false memory.

That really feels like an immoral use of IP enforcement even if it currently works in the courtroom because it's messing with how a farmer physically deals with his own farm, and because the crops arrived passively through no fault of his own. It's like trespassing and then suing for a slip & fall.

I don't feel this way about someone wanting to steal video content and disseminate it to friends and strangers willy nilly.

However, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know how to argue against IP in the first example and for it in the latter. I don't know the precedents, and I can't think of some universal distinction or criterion that would divide them.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by Xan »

nskinsella wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:44 amYes, just read the article. It appears to expire after x years just like other copyright. There is no current copyright in existence that is based on 400 year old works. As far as I know. So I think your statement was just factually incorrect. Not that it's really relevant. It doesn't matter, really, if copyrights lasts 14 years, or 100 years, or 400 years. It's unjust in any case.
You're right that it isn't particularly relevant to this discussion, just an interesting bit of information.

nskinsella wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:44 amBUt I don't see what good it does to be inaccurate in describing the legal contours of the current IP system.

Agreed. So:
https://www.cambridge.org/bibles/about/ ... ssions-kjv
Rights in The Authorized Version of the Bible (King James Bible) in the United Kingdom are vested in the Crown and administered by the Crown’s patentee, Cambridge University Press. The reproduction by any means of the text of the King James Version is permitted to a maximum of five hundred (500) verses for liturgical and non-commercial educational use, provided that the verses quoted neither amount to a complete book of the Bible nor represent 25 per cent or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted, subject to the following acknowledgement being included:

Scripture quotations from The Authorized (King James) Version. Rights in the Authorized Version in the United Kingdom are vested in the Crown. Reproduced by permission of the Crown’s patentee, Cambridge University Press

When quotations from the KJV text are used in materials not being made available for sale, such as church bulletins, orders of service, posters, presentation materials, or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required but the initials KJV must appear at the end of the quotation.

Rights or permission requests (including but not limited to reproduction in commercial publications) that exceed the above guidelines must be directed to the Permissions Department, Cambridge University Press, University Printing House, Shaftesbury Road, Cambridge CB2 8BS, UK (https://www.cambridge.org/about-us/rights-permissions) and approved in writing.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by nskinsella »

stuper1 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:33 pm Does a society have the "natural right" to set up a framework of common laws that they believe to be in the collective self interest? If they decide to do that, can they extend the idea of property rights to things that are not considered inalienable property rights under "natural law"?
this is the problem with equivocation--you don't say what you mean by "common laws." It sounds like "common law" but you evidently mean something different by it--legislation. If "whatever the majority wants" "can be made" "law" then... any horrible laws can be made and then we lose the distinction between justice and law. think about it. Think about what you are trying to say. What exactly are you trying to argue? Are you saying IP law is just--because the Congress has made it law? If so, then there are no limits to what the state can do.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by stuper1 »

History has already proven that there are no limits to what the state can do. That's beyond doubt. The state can come and kill me at any time without any reason and who will stand up and stop them? Nobody.

My point is that we live in a system of laws set up as a communal society. We have the ability to influence those laws. Obviously you are trying to do that with your work. God bless you if you can get some reasonable changes enacted. However, until that happens, people who unilaterally decide that it's okay to take artists' work without paying for it are still stealing and immoral.

I don't even think that artists' work needs to be viewed as IP to take my view. It's more like an implied contract. If somebody creates a song/movie/etc. and offers it for sale at a certain price, and I come along and say that the price is too high, so therefore I'm just going to rummage around to find where I can get the material for free instead, I'm certainly not acting in a moral way. If I don't want to pay the set price, then fine, I should just go without enjoying the content. I'm not being enslaved by not getting to enjoy a song or movie that I didn't pay for anyway.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by Xan »

stuper1 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:14 pmI don't even think that artists' work needs to be viewed as IP to take my view. It's more like an implied contract. If somebody creates a song/movie/etc. and offers it for sale at a certain price, and I come along and say that the price is too high, so therefore I'm just going to rummage around to find where I can get the material for free instead, I'm certainly not acting in a moral way. If I don't want to pay the set price, then fine, I should just go without enjoying the content. I'm not being enslaved by not getting to enjoy a song or movie that I didn't pay for anyway.
I think it's a matter of whose view is the default. For the entirety of human history until extremely recently, creativity was done without any expectation of "owning" it. Haydn wrote his music because somebody paid him to, for example.

The idea of a creator preventing somebody else from singing his song or playing his music would have been the one considered immoral.

In fact, we'd do well to remember that the stated reason for IP laws is to encourage the creation of works of art in order for them to pass into the public domain.
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Re: Intellectual Property (IP) & Theft

Post by dualstow »

Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:17 pm
dualstow wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:54 pm
Mountaineer wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:24 pm In order to decide if something is moral or not, one needs a source of absolute right and wrong that almost everyone agrees upon. What is that in this case?
hint: It’s not the bible O0
What is it? And, perhaps I'm off base in following this discussion, but I see a difference between the stake in the ground that defines "right and wrong" and the term "rights" that is being discussed. I see a difference between each individual saying "that is right by what I think" (an internally sourced definition that is probably different for most of us) and a collective society saying what the agreed upon external source of "right and wrong" is. I still don't think I'm seeing an answer to "what is that sourse of absolute right and wrong". Can anyone clarify?
I never responded to this. I would argue, Mountaineer, that there is no one source. The crowd decides, and the opinion of those crowds varies with geography and the passing of time.
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