Time to replace Macbook Pro?

[yankees60]

That's not entirely accurate, Vinny. The small devices have planned obsolescence but Mac computers, like Mountaineer's, just keep on trucking. One day my Windows box just imploded.

See my response to Mountaineer. I was trying to confine my observation to just this: "For my older iPhones, iPads apps just stop working as they don't work without having an updated operating system. " To which you agree. Having to replace $400 iPads after three or four years use is outside of the typical Windows computer experience. I love all those non-computer Apple devices. Just don't like when an app I'd been using now stops being able to use.

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

I just realized another major, major, major drawback to Apple products. The planned obsolescence, which becomes quite costly.
Vinny

Interesting. My 10 year old MacBookPro still works fine, just a bit slower than my year-old one and far better than my old Windows Dell desktop which I have updated with maximum memory and bigger capacity harddrive. I have also updated the memory and internal drive to an SSD though in the old MacBookPro.

I should have been more specific as since I have no experience with their computers I don't know what is the case with them. But I did think I was being semi-specific when I wrote: "For my older iPhones, iPads apps just stop working as they don't work without having an updated operating system. '

Vinny

Got you. I can’t comment on the iPhones as I get a new one every couple years. Not because I have to, I am somewhat of a techie and can’t resist the new technology, i.e. better camera, faster processing, better screen, etc. Yes, I am rationalizing; don’t burst my bubble. I spend much/most of my time with my iPhone 11 ProMax vs other hardware. It’s just so convenient, and AWESOME.

[dualstow]

Xan, you can put High Sierra, which I think is the oldest OS still getting security updates, on older Macintosh computers with a patch.
If you do that, you've got a fairly current OS, but can you then get updates for it? Not sure

[yankees60]

Got you. I can’t comment on the iPhones as I get a new one every couple years. Not because I have to, I am somewhat of a techie and can’t resist the new technology, i.e. better camera, faster processing, better screen, etc. Yes, I am rationalizing; don’t burst my bubble. I spend much/most of my time with my iPhone 11 ProMax vs other hardware. It’s just so convenient, and AWESOME.

Yes. We're on opposite ends of this. Though I can well afford to do what you do this Mr. Frugal always reins me in, asking me..."Is this the best value purchase". He always wins which puts me on a daily hunt of high value used iPads. I bought a used iPad 3 last week for $50. If nothing else that thing is always going to work for email and reading books. I'll bet some other apps also. For me part of the thrill is getting a high value deal. And, all new becomes old and used fairly quickly. I'm actually upset if I cannot buy food on sale or buy a used version of a product.

VInny

[CT-Scott]

I have to disagree Vinny. I like to upgrade my iDevices fairly often, but Apple is actually quite good at providing OS updates for many years for older devices. And when they eventually stop providing OS updates, you can still continue to get useful years out of them, should you choose to do so. What can you compare this to for a smartphone or tablet? Android? Android devices *very* quickly stop getting OS updates. Again, you can choose to use them with an older version of an Android OS, but Apple definitely shines there, and it's not even close.

As for laptops/desktops, I have a work-supplied MacBook. They give us our choice of a Lenovo Thinkpad or MacBook. I'm in the IT industry (software developer), so I'm sure we're a little more "cutting edge" and I know that my wife's employer (Healthcare "Insurance") only gives them Lenovo Thinkpads. Anyway, with Mac OS, you can get Microsoft Office. And more and more new apps are being written as cloud (web browser-based) apps, where your laptop/desktop OS doesn't matter (personally, I still prefer native apps to cloud/web apps).

I think your problem is that you're stuck using older desktop-based native apps that were originally written for Windows, and where the developers just don't want to go through the work of completely rewriting them for Mac OS (or as cloud/web apps).

Also, don't forget that you can also choose to install Windows on a Mac. You can do it in such a way that it's within a virtual machine, and there are free options with that sort of software (e.g., Oracle VirtualBox), though you may need to pay for a Windows OS license to install on it.

And, like the iDevice OS support, Apple definitely supports older Apple laptops/desktops for a long, long time with free OS updates.

[yankees60]

I have to disagree Vinny. I like to upgrade my iDevices fairly often, but Apple is actually quite good at providing OS updates for many years for older devices. And when they eventually stop providing OS updates, you can still continue to get useful years out of them, should you choose to do so. What can you compare this to for a smartphone or tablet? Android? Android devices *very* quickly stop getting OS updates. Again, you can choose to use them with an older version of an Android OS, but Apple definitely shines there, and it's not even close.

As for laptops/desktops, I have a work-supplied MacBook. They give us our choice of a Lenovo Thinkpad or MacBook. I'm in the IT industry (software developer), so I'm sure we're a little more "cutting edge" and I know that my wife's employer (Healthcare "Insurance") only gives them Lenovo Thinkpads. Anyway, with Mac OS, you can get Microsoft Office. And more and more new apps are being written as cloud (web browser-based) apps, where your laptop/desktop OS doesn't matter (personally, I still prefer native apps to cloud/web apps).

I think your problem is that you're stuck using older desktop-based native apps that were originally written for Windows, and where the developers just don't want to go through the work of completely rewriting them for Mac OS (or as cloud/web apps).

Also, don't forget that you can also choose to install Windows on a Mac. You can do it in such a way that it's within a virtual machine, and there are free options with that sort of software (e.g., Oracle VirtualBox), though you may need to pay for a Windows OS license to install on it.

And, like the iDevice OS support, Apple definitely supports older Apple laptops/desktops for a long, long time with free OS updates.

Maybe my problem was comparing the Windows computer operating systems to Apple device operating systems.

I was viewing the iPad as being an alternative to a computer thus expected it to behave as a computer in terms of how long I could use an app or a program.

The AT Bat app made for MLB.com (Major League Baseball) is no longer usable on older iPads or iPhones because their is a limit to how far you can upgrade their operating systems.

Because MLB.com runs on browsers I can still use it on Windows based computers using Older operating system. Certainly can do it on any Windows 7 computers which is an operating system that I believe is older than the operating systems on those iPhones and iPads?

I know that the whole world is moving towards "cloud (web browser-based) apps". But I view that as a scheme to extort more money from you. I use QuickBooks extensively. You buy it and you use it as long as you want with it functioning the same way as the day you bought it. They get no more $$$$ from you. Intuit, however, is trying to get you to move to a vastly inferior online product and charge you annual fees for the "privilege" of using this inferior product. And, they further try to force you to do so by making some features in the desktop version no longer working and "only" available in the inferior and more expensive online version.

My problem as I initially stated was I was viewing an iPad and its operating system and apps the same way I viewed Windows computers and its programs.

Today I can easily get programs that specifically were written for Windows 7 or Windows 10 (if a program will not run on both). The Windows 7 programs don't all get hidden and become unavailable once Windows 10 is released.

With my iPad once a certain new operating system was released it was impossible to find apps that could run on the operating system that was the most recent possible on that iPad. Why do those old apps get hidden or become unavailable? If they would have worked when I bought the iPad why don't they stay available forever? That told me a lot about Apple and the pressures they put on those who create apps to work on Apple devices. Told me that as part of the deal of creating an app for Apple that you had to agree with Apple's extortion scheme to get its customers to abandon their otherwise excellent functioning devices so as to give Apple yet more of their $$$$. I cannot think of any other reason for this.

Vinny

[WiseOne]

I have to disagree Vinny. I like to upgrade my iDevices fairly often, but Apple is actually quite good at providing OS updates for many years for older devices. And when they eventually stop providing OS updates, you can still continue to get useful years out of them, should you choose to do so. What can you compare this to for a smartphone or tablet? Android? Android devices *very* quickly stop getting OS updates. Again, you can choose to use them with an older version of an Android OS, but Apple definitely shines there, and it's not even close.

As for laptops/desktops, I have a work-supplied MacBook. They give us our choice of a Lenovo Thinkpad or MacBook. I'm in the IT industry (software developer), so I'm sure we're a little more "cutting edge" and I know that my wife's employer (Healthcare "Insurance") only gives them Lenovo Thinkpads. Anyway, with Mac OS, you can get Microsoft Office. And more and more new apps are being written as cloud (web browser-based) apps, where your laptop/desktop OS doesn't matter (personally, I still prefer native apps to cloud/web apps).

I think your problem is that you're stuck using older desktop-based native apps that were originally written for Windows, and where the developers just don't want to go through the work of completely rewriting them for Mac OS (or as cloud/web apps).

Also, don't forget that you can also choose to install Windows on a Mac. You can do it in such a way that it's within a virtual machine, and there are free options with that sort of software (e.g., Oracle VirtualBox), though you may need to pay for a Windows OS license to install on it.

And, like the iDevice OS support, Apple definitely supports older Apple laptops/desktops for a long, long time with free OS updates.

Yes, I thought the advantage of Apple is that the machines have a much longer useful life than anything Windows-ish, if you're happy foregoing the latest and greatest. I also thought they support old operating systems for quite a long time. With windows, the hardware generally fails before software becomes an issue.

The 64 bit conversion with catalina, though, is a real headache. I have an old version of Filemaker that I use to maintain a clinical database, and my coordinator can't work on it because she upgraded her Mac laptop and it won't run Filemaker anymore. She's planning to roll back to Mojave for that reason plus catalina killed her performance and hogged her hard drive. She has a 2014 Air with 128g disk.

[Dieter]

I still have to update the OS on my Mac Mini to use The latest Turbo Tax.

Had to upgrade Quicken and pay the yearly tax for that.

[yankees60]

I still have to update the OS on my Mac Mini to use latestTurbo Tax.

Had to upgrade Quicken and pay the yearly tax for that.

I stopped upgrading Quicken years ago. It works fine, the only 'drawback' is that you can't import data from direct-connect with banks and brokers. Since I never used that feature, no reason to pay.

But you can download the daily prices of all the securities that you own. I find that feature invaluable. Whenever I want to know my net worth I know I have it for any day since January 1, 1994. Don't have to do any more work than run the report in Quicken and specify a date. Or, can run a report which has it side-by-side for whatever years I specify. Great program for personal finance but nowhere as good as QuickBooks on the accounting end.

Vinny

[Xan]

Yes, I thought the advantage of Apple is that the machines have a much longer useful life than anything Windows-ish, if you're happy foregoing the latest and greatest. I also thought they support old operating systems for quite a long time. With windows, the hardware generally fails before software becomes an issue.

Many times, Apple has thrown in the towel on an architecture, requiring all new hardware and software in order to move forward. 68xxx -> PowerPC -> Intel x86 -> amd64.

That last transition was particularly nasty, because the Intel x86 phase was so short. People's computers were doorstops after only a couple of years.

[dualstow]

I like to upgrade my iDevices fairly often, but Apple is actually quite good at providing OS updates for many years for older devices.

I guess that's true to some extent. I have to be fair about the definition of "old" with regard to electronic items as compared to a pair of boots or jhogue's shotgun.

I've had mixed results with hand-me-down iphones but I have to admit my ipad mini is doing well after 3 years, and I bought it used.
The IPAD OS breathed new life into it (and made it glitchy at the same time). Mixed results.
I only know that the obsolescence is real enough that I've given up on paying $79 for a battery change. I'll get a new ipad mini.

[CT-Scott]

Yes, I thought the advantage of Apple is that the machines have a much longer useful life than anything Windows-ish, if you're happy foregoing the latest and greatest. I also thought they support old operating systems for quite a long time. With windows, the hardware generally fails before software becomes an issue.

The 64 bit conversion with catalina, though, is a real headache. I have an old version of Filemaker that I use to maintain a clinical database, and my coordinator can't work on it because she upgraded her Mac laptop and it won't run Filemaker anymore.

I think this is the common thread: a need to run older versions of software. Is the version of the software that you have an older version because the company is out of business, or because at some point in time, the purchaser of the software decided to not spend the money on an update? If the latter, that's the double-edged sword of "buying" your software: On the one hand, you can save money by not being forced into having to pay an annual fee to use the software on your computer. On the other, you could get left behind where that software doesn't work on the latest OS.

Many times, Apple has thrown in the towel on an architecture, requiring all new hardware and software in order to move forward. 68xxx -> PowerPC -> Intel x86 -> amd64.

That last transition was particularly nasty, because the Intel x86 phase was so short. People's computers were doorstops after only a couple of years.

And adding on to my reply to WiseOne's post, this is yet another possibility. Sometimes you have some software that you love, but where the developer might have been a small operation, where maybe they moved on to something else a couple of years ago, or maybe they've gone bankrupt. The sofware's still great, though. In fact, maybe it's the *only* software that's even out there that can serve your niche. But then the company who owns the operating system decides to push out a significant upgrade. It probably has some great features you want, so you upgrade. But then that other software you loved so much won't run anymore. It's not really either company's fault...it just sucks.

Hmm...I just had an epiphany, though...I think I may have a solution to some of this. If I'm Apple, when I come out with a new version of my OS, as part of the install of the new version, it includes an "app" which is along the lines of a Virtual Machine which has the last version of the OS, where you can run your applications which aren't compatible with the latest version of the OS.

[yankees60]

I've had mixed results with hand-me-down iphones but I have to admit my ipad mini is doing well after 3 years, and I bought it used.
The IPAD OS breathed new life into it (and made it glitchy at the same time). Mixed results.
I only know that the obsolescence is real enough that I've given up on paying $79 for a battery change. I'll get a new ipad mini.

My 2012 iPad 1 (purchased refurbished) still going strong. Then another iPad 1 of about the same age I bought used I use almost every single night is also still going strong.

Bought a used iPad Mini 1 about four years for $50. Also, still going strong.

All my iTouches, though, seem to have fairly short battery lives at this point. However, my 120GB iPod I bought used in 2007 still has an extremely long battery life.

Vinny

[dualstow]

I wish I could just bypass the battery on the ipad like you can with many laptops*. It's getting closer to always reading 10% or 100% charged, and not much in between.

*Noted: I have not forgotten that WiseOne mentioned the "glued in" batteries that you can't just liberate by opening a little gas tank like door.
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[yankees60]

Sometimes you have some software that you love, but where the developer might have been a small operation, where maybe they moved on to something else a couple of years ago, or maybe they've gone bankrupt. The sofware's still great, though. In fact, maybe it's the *only* software that's even out there that can serve your niche. But then the company who owns the operating system decides to push out a significant upgrade. It probably has some great features you want, so you upgrade. But then that other software you loved so much won't run anymore. It's not really either company's fault...it just sucks.

When I first went online in 1995 I was given Eudora as my email program. 25 years later I am STILL using Eudora!

I appreciate the Outlook I use for my job but for home use I'd not replace my Eudora with Outlook.

My biggest fear had been that some day Eudora would just stop working after one of Windows upgrades, e.g., to Windows 7, Windows 10. But it keeps working even thought it itself has not been updated since 2006 (!!). Therefore it's essentially been abandoned since then.

Someone who is highly knowledgeable about all things computers told me she is not surprised regarding this and that Eudora could go on forever in the Windows environment. You agree?

Vinny

[yankees60]

I wish I could just bypass the battery on the ipad like you can with many laptops*. It's getting closer to always reading 10% or 100% charged, and not much in between.

I've not noticed that since the one I use at night is always plugged in thus always at 100%. The other one I use for keeping score at our softball games and it seems that for the close to 2 hours or so that I have it on it loses about 36%.

One tournament day when I had four games to score it went to zero with two innings to go in the last game. The same day (an extremely hot day) it overheated and shut down. I had to use someone's beer cooler to get it to rapidly cool down so it'd be ready for action for the next game.

Vinny

[dualstow]

Vin, you’re not supposed to plug it in all the time. Apple’s batteries are amazing, but you can still wear them out by charging them all the time.

Lots of engineers here, so tell me if I’ve been misinformed:
It’s not that something bad happens when you hit 100% and keep trying to charge. It’s that all charging ages a battery, period. So after that first full charge of a new device it’s better to take “sips” than to plug it in all night, although the latter is certainly convenient.

[yankees60]

Vin, you’re not supposed to plug it in all the time. Apple’s batteries are amazing, but you can still wear them out by charging them all the time.

Lots of engineers here, so tell me if I’ve been misinformed:
It’s not that something bad happens when you hit 100% and keep trying to charge. It’s that all charging ages a battery, period. So after that first full charge of a new device it’s better to take “sips” than to plug it in all night, although the latter is certainly convenient.

I've wondered about that. However, someone told me that modern devices have something that sense that the battery is fully charged, thus, there is no actual charging going on.

Vinny

[dualstow]

Go to “Best thing to do” section (ctrl F to search)
https://www.pcmag.com/news/charging-you ... s-debunked

[CT-Scott]

dualstow, what you say used to be true, but may not be true as much with more modern devices. On my MacBook Pro 16, which I believe I bought in December, I heard that it had a way to bypass the charging process when the battery was full. Sure enough, I've taken to always keeping it plugged in (I haven't left the house with it yet, and don't expect to very often, regardless of COVID-19), and use it (a lot) every day, and the system report indicates that the "Cycle Count" is only 5.

I'm not sure which other MacBooks, iPads, and iPhones may have similar circuitry now.

[yankees60]

dualstow, what you say used to be true, but may not be true as much with more modern devices. On my MacBook Pro 16, which I believe I bought in December, I heard that it had a way to bypass the charging process when the battery was full. Sure enough, I've taken to always keeping it plugged in (I haven't left the house with it yet, and don't expect to very often, regardless of COVID-19), and use it (a lot) every day, and the system report indicates that the "Cycle Count" is only 5.

I'm not sure which other MacBooks, iPads, and iPhones may have similar circuitry now.

You'd think that this might be considered essential information to be provided to the buyer / consumer of such devices / products?

Vinny

[Xan]

A lithium ion battery will wear out faster if its charge is low or high. That's why most of the time when you buy a new device, its battery is at ~40%.

When my laptop is plugged in, if it's below 40%, it'll charge up to 75% and then run off the mains without charging further. If it's above 40% when plugged in, then it won't charge, but will run off the mains. This minimizes the number of charging cycles as well as the amount of time spent at an extreme.

If I'm actually taking it somewhere, I'll lift the cap and charge it to 100%.

[dualstow]

That’s good to know, CT Scott. The article is in fact a year, old, and I like that things are improving.

A lithium ion battery will wear out faster if its charge is low or high. That's why most of the time when you buy a new device, its battery is at ~40%.

When my laptop is plugged in, if it's below 40%, it'll charge up to 75% and then run off the mains without charging further. If it's above 40% when plugged in, then it won't charge, but will run off the mains. This minimizes the number of charging cycles as well as the amount of time spent at an extreme.

If I'm actually taking it somewhere, I'll lift the cap and charge it to 100%.

This is exactly what the article says in the section I listed. Glad to have corroboration. That’s what I’ve been doing for years- or trying to do. I just noticed I’m at 5% right now. Cat’s fault.

[Mark Leavy]

A lithium ion battery will wear out faster if its charge is low or high. That's why most of the time when you buy a new device, its battery is at ~40%.

When my laptop is plugged in, if it's below 40%, it'll charge up to 75% and then run off the mains without charging further. If it's above 40% when plugged in, then it won't charge, but will run off the mains. This minimizes the number of charging cycles as well as the amount of time spent at an extreme.

If I'm actually taking it somewhere, I'll lift the cap and charge it to 100%.

Xan, how do you plug your laptop in without the battery charging? Do you yank the battery?
FYI - I haven't had a windows notebook for years, so maybe that is a configuration option now...

Thanks,
Mark

[Xan]

A lithium ion battery will wear out faster if its charge is low or high. That's why most of the time when you buy a new device, its battery is at ~40%.

When my laptop is plugged in, if it's below 40%, it'll charge up to 75% and then run off the mains without charging further. If it's above 40% when plugged in, then it won't charge, but will run off the mains. This minimizes the number of charging cycles as well as the amount of time spent at an extreme.

If I'm actually taking it somewhere, I'll lift the cap and charge it to 100%.

Xan, how do you plug your laptop in without the battery charging? Do you yank the battery?
FYI - I haven't had a windows notebook for years, so maybe that is a configuration option now...

Thanks,
Mark

It has more to do with the laptop's firmware than anything else. I would hope that any OS would have the ability to fiddle with the option if it exists, but I'm not sure about anything other than Linux. Even there, it can require a manufacturer-specific tool. The Thinkpads (at least the business ones?) are pretty good about it. System76 is good about it.