Monarchism

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Ad Orientem
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Re: Monarchism

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:45 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Billionaires are our monarchy. Singapore pays pays public servants millions to reduce bribery. Not sure yet if I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore

Why is the president allowed to hide his tax returns, if youre not willing to be transparent dont run for office.

I think you are confusing monarchism with oligarchy. That said there is a certain hereditary aspect given the staggering levels of wealth being transferred from one generation to another with little or no tax.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:53 pm

sophie wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:21 am
Ad, I'm curious...What were the problems with the Enlightenment? I hadn't heard that described negatively before.

Also, you could make a case that the history of the Roman Church's dominion prior to the Reformation was no better than what you described post-Reformation: it effectively shut down scientific and economic progress in Europe for centuries, spawned the Crusades and the Inquisition, and in no small part contributed to a never-ending series of plagues among which was the Black Death. Living conditions at that time, if you weren't a member of the aristocracy, were possibly worse than they have been in any era in Europe's history. How exactly was post-Reformation worse?

The Counter Enlightenment...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Enlightenment

The Roman Church's record on science is decidedly mixed. Often it was excellent. The modern civil calendar, also known as the Gregorian Calendar, is an example of their contributions. At other times they were stubbornly stuck in the past. The Inquisition was a horror. But the crusades were just a natural reaction to the militant expansionism of Islam which set out to convert the world at sword point, and very nearly succeeded. The Reformation also had the effect of dividing Christianity in its hour of greatest peril. The newly Protestant states of Northern Europe generally refused to send military aid to the Catholic states in Southern Europe that were the front line in resistance to the Islamic invasions of Europe. I don't think the Roman Church can be blamed for the various outbreaks of plague.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by moda0306 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:41 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:53 pm
sophie wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:21 am
Ad, I'm curious...What were the problems with the Enlightenment? I hadn't heard that described negatively before.

Also, you could make a case that the history of the Roman Church's dominion prior to the Reformation was no better than what you described post-Reformation: it effectively shut down scientific and economic progress in Europe for centuries, spawned the Crusades and the Inquisition, and in no small part contributed to a never-ending series of plagues among which was the Black Death. Living conditions at that time, if you weren't a member of the aristocracy, were possibly worse than they have been in any era in Europe's history. How exactly was post-Reformation worse?

The Counter Enlightenment...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Enlightenment

The Roman Church's record on science is decidedly mixed. Often it was excellent. The modern civil calendar, also known as the Gregorian Calendar, is an example of their contributions. At other times they were stubbornly stuck in the past. The Inquisition was a horror. But the crusades were just a natural reaction to the militant expansionism of Islam which set out to convert the world at sword point, and very nearly succeeded. The Reformation also had the effect of dividing Christianity in its hour of greatest peril. The newly Protestant states of Northern Europe generally refused to send military aid to the Catholic states in Southern Europe that were the front line in resistance to the Islamic invasions of Europe. I don't think the Roman Church can be blamed for the various outbreaks of plague.
I don't know any good books on the matter, but I heard a good "debunk" of the Crusades being "defensive" by Youtube user "Three Arrows." Yes, I realize this is YouTube, but the guy seems pretty damn smart... It seems like a good primer on the topic but I'd be interested in a much deeper dive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejdlkfXwPQc

I'd also be curious to know your take on the church's involvement or non-involvement in rampant Antisemitism in Europe, both before and during the rise and fall of Fascism in Europe. Key being the rampant pogroms that were far more of a threat to Jews in Europe & Russia than in Jews in the Middle East.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by sophie » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:02 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:53 pm
sophie wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:21 am
Ad, I'm curious...What were the problems with the Enlightenment? I hadn't heard that described negatively before.

Also, you could make a case that the history of the Roman Church's dominion prior to the Reformation was no better than what you described post-Reformation: it effectively shut down scientific and economic progress in Europe for centuries, spawned the Crusades and the Inquisition, and in no small part contributed to a never-ending series of plagues among which was the Black Death. Living conditions at that time, if you weren't a member of the aristocracy, were possibly worse than they have been in any era in Europe's history. How exactly was post-Reformation worse?

The Counter Enlightenment...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Enlightenment

The Roman Church's record on science is decidedly mixed. Often it was excellent. The modern civil calendar, also known as the Gregorian Calendar, is an example of their contributions. At other times they were stubbornly stuck in the past. The Inquisition was a horror. But the crusades were just a natural reaction to the militant expansionism of Islam which set out to convert the world at sword point, and very nearly succeeded. The Reformation also had the effect of dividing Christianity in its hour of greatest peril. The newly Protestant states of Northern Europe generally refused to send military aid to the Catholic states in Southern Europe that were the front line in resistance to the Islamic invasions of Europe. I don't think the Roman Church can be blamed for the various outbreaks of plague.
Still doesn't really answer my question...the Enlightment included things like Newtonian mechanics, the US Constitution, the concept of separation of church and state, individual liberties, and reason being the main path to knowledge. Of course there would be people who didn't like this at the time, but that doesn't mean they were negative developments. If you have an argument that they were I'd be interested to hear it.

Also yes, I do blame the Church indirectly for the outbreaks of plague. No, they didn't develop the bacteria in a secret lab or bring in the rats and fleas. But the feudal system with an aristocracy claiming legitimacy via the Church, that the serfs were not to question lest they be accused of heresy.
The degeneration of living conditions for non-aristocrats that resulted most certainly created the perfect conditions for an epidemic.

The US Constitution's explicit exclusion of religion as a basis for government is something we take for granted now, but it was a highly novel idea at the time. Contrast the preamble starting with"We the People..." to the Magna Carta: "John, by the grace of God King of England..."

See the difference? You as an ordinary person can question a secular government, but if you question John's authority you're acting against God. I personally see this as progress.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by dualstow » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:09 am

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. I guess there's good and bad coming out of Mr M.B.S.
loot "goods taken from an enemy, etc.," 1839, Anglo-Indian, from Hindi lut, from Sanskrit loptram, lotram "booty, stolen property,"fm. PIE root *reup- "to snatch"
curfew - early 14c., curfeu, "evening signal, ringing of a bell at a fixed hour" as a signal to extinguish fires and lights, ... from Old French cuevrefeu, literally "cover fire"
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Re: Monarchism

Post by Kbg » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:29 am

The more time I've spent learning about the time period being described the more I chalk it all up to "man." I agree that the Catholic Church became spectacularly corrupt; however, the reality is that good old fashioned power politics that have been around since we formed political systems of any sort were probably a larger factor than the Catholic Church. For at least some of the period I think we can consider the church as being more of the superpower of the day.

In other words, on the surface things seem based on religion (which no doubt was a significant ideological contextual factor) but ultimately the real drivers of the time period were secular (land, power, wealth...all the usual stuff).

Luther in his own unique way, was basically calling "it" for what it was.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:29 am

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Re: Monarchism

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:35 am

Also, you might be interested in hans Hermann hoppe,s book " democracy The God that failed"

https://mises.org/library/democracy-god-failed-1

Or search for his YouTube lectures on the same subject
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Re: Monarchism

Post by technovelist » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Billionaires are our monarchy. Singapore pays pays public servants millions to reduce bribery. Not sure yet if I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore

Why is the president allowed to hide his tax returns, if youre not willing to be transparent dont run for office.
If the Founders had wanted Presidential candidates to be forced to make their tax returns public, they would have put that in the Constitution.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:07 pm

I cannot tell if you are being facetious or not since we did not have federal income taxes until 1913 (I believe).

Vinny
technovelist wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 pm
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Billionaires are our monarchy. Singapore pays pays public servants millions to reduce bribery. Not sure yet if I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore

Why is the president allowed to hide his tax returns, if youre not willing to be transparent dont run for office.
If the Founders had wanted Presidential candidates to be forced to make their tax returns public, they would have put that in the Constitution.
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Monarchism

Post by technovelist » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:07 pm
I cannot tell if you are being facetious or not since we did not have federal income taxes until 1913 (I believe).

Vinny
technovelist wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 pm
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:12 pm
Billionaires are our monarchy. Singapore pays pays public servants millions to reduce bribery. Not sure yet if I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore

Why is the president allowed to hide his tax returns, if youre not willing to be transparent dont run for office.
If the Founders had wanted Presidential candidates to be forced to make their tax returns public, they would have put that in the Constitution.
So you do know something about American history!
That puts you way ahead of most leftists.
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Re: Monarchism

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 am

I am a self-described moderate Independent. But from the view of someone on the right, I guess that looks left.

Vinny
technovelist wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:07 pm
I cannot tell if you are being facetious or not since we did not have federal income taxes until 1913 (I believe).

Vinny
technovelist wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 pm


If the Founders had wanted Presidential candidates to be forced to make their tax returns public, they would have put that in the Constitution.
So you do know something about American history!
That puts you way ahead of most leftists.
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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