Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

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melveyr
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Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by melveyr »

Hey guys,

I made a post on my site about how I understand the simultaneous strong performance of Treasuries and Gold. It seems that some people think that gold is forecasting strong inflation, but I disagree. You can read it by clicking on my signature, or just read the text here  ;)

Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Gold and Treasuries have been rising simultaneously lately, leaving many investors scratching their heads. An economy cannot be experiencing inflation and deflation at the same time, so why are they both going up?

The misunderstanding stems from a lack of understanding of gold and the relative nature of exchange value.

It is pretty clear that our economy is more worried about deflation than inflation right now. With unemployment at 9%, it is hard to imagine a prolonged inflationary cycle. It is important to realize that inflation only gets nasty when the economy is running at full speed and our economy currently has far too much slack.

So if deflation is the real worry, why is gold going up too? Don’t higher gold prices indicate higher inflation expectations?
A key symptom of deflation is a flight to currency over risk assets; the exchange value swings in currency’s favor. In a deflation, currency is king because it allows you to sit on the sidelines and scoop up assets and commodities as prices drift (or plummet) lower and lower.

When comparing the price movements of gold to a basket of other commodities, it is very clear that gold is different because gold has unique price movements that do not correlate with the rest of the commodity universe. This low correlation exists because gold trades as an alternative currency. Even though it is not twintopt in any modern economy, wealthy individuals (and governments) still trade it as if it were a currency.

So, when gold and Treasuries are both going up, you are not witnessing a market contradiction but a flight to the broad asset class of currencies. Within this broad asset class, investors have choices and sometimes they prefer gold over Treasuries or vice versa.
It’s pretty simple to understand when viewed from a perspective of relative exchange value. The confusion arises because we are conditioned to always view exchange values in dollars. In reality, exchange values can be expressed in an infinite number of ways and one way of expressing exchange value is no more correct than others. When investors stampede into gold and dollars simultaneously, we see big movements in the price of gold measured in dollars because the market for gold is much smaller than the market for dollars. It is entirely plausible for investors to want both, but we see relatively higher prices (in dollars) for gold.

This argument does not dismiss gold’s use for inflation protection. Significant inflation normally manifests itself in fiat currencies (unless we have massive gold discoveries). Therefore, in an inflationary environment people value the relatively fixed currency of gold more than the expanding fiat currency experiencing the inflation. In this situation, the shift is happening within the currency universe.

In summary, inflation expectations are a sufficient but not necessary condition for gold to rise. In fact, gold can still perform very well relative to risk assets during a deflation as investors stampede into currencies.
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Gumby
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by Gumby »

Nicely done. I like that it's an explanation that an average buyer of gold would actually agree with.

What are your thoughts on this argument that's been floating around (as inspired by Krugman)? I've been trying to wrap my brain around it, but it doesn't quite make sense to me. I have a hard time believing that any of the buyers of gold in the world would ever see gold the way Krugman thinks they do.
Last edited by Gumby on Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stone
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by stone »

Gumby, are you saying that you don't believe that real (inflation adjusted) interest rates are bullish for gold? I thought gold price was a reflection of real interest rates AND "real (non-monetary) deflation" (ie decreasing economic activity) as described by melveyr and also things like the Indian Jewelry market  and the cost of extracting gold from the ground. To my mind the only thing now keeping a lid on gold is the fact that commodities in the long term tend to match the cost of producing them and gold can be dug out of the ground for $700/ounce.
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stone
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by stone »

Clive, is your conclusion that gold price in USD is just  the inverse of  USD purchasing power in international markets? Your chart "might" suggest that the gold bubble fears are a bit exagerated?
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by stone »

Clive, I find it very hard to get my head around currencies. On the face of it, the say 3x? increase in the Brazilian Real  versus the USD since the late 1990s does not seem so dramatic BUT as the growth of the Chinese, Indian, Brazilian etc economies has been much greater than the US economy, then perhaps now a  Brazilian is able to buy much more than 3x as much oil as they could afford in the late 1990s? The Indian Rupee has kept pace with the USD despite much higher inflation in India. Does that not mean that USD priced assets are more affordable for indians? If a taxi ride now costs 3x as much as it did before, then the taxi driver will have more money to buy diesel with?
Also on a total returns basis, if Brazilian Reals pay 12% interest and inflation is 6%, then that is a totally different ball game to the US or UK situation.
Currencies are such a smoke and mirrors pit of trickery :). I'm probably in a total muddle about all of this.
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by stone »

Clive those total market cap estimates of gold, stocks and bonds are fascinating. Is the gold meaning gold available for investors or does it include Temple of Amritsar, Ottoman palaces etc?

I've wondered about how total stock capitalisation gets shifted by effects such as corporate indebtedness. So companies could issue a vast amount of high yield bonds such that all cash flow went to debt servicing or they could have an Apple style cash mountain. Those two scenarios would result in the same sized company having wildly different fair value market caps. Also an index like the Dow or the FTSE100 is partly just a measure of what proportion of the economy is in the form of the largest companies. A shift to smaller companies or private equity or to corporate debt could cause a fall in the Dow with no fall in "prosperity" and no "price to earnings compression" and vice versa.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by craigr »

I simply think there is a tug-of-war going on in the markets now. One side thinks deflation is the likely outcome. The other thinks the Fed will be successful in causing inflation. It will all work out with one side winning and the other losing eventually. I don't know which way it will go but will stay rebalanced regardless.
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Re: Gold and Treasuries are No Contradiction

Post by stone »

Clive, perhaps once stocks reach such a high valuation that people can not envisage them going higher; then speculation turns to commodities and pushes them up. The high costs of industrial commodities bites into company profits/consumption levels. Then stocks and commodities crash. Rinse and repeat. Gold perhaps just tracks the underlying level of asset/commodity price inflation. An economic down turn does not harm gold because consumption of every day items does not link to holding gold.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
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