An excellent article on TDS

[dualstow]

Wow. That is amazing. The etymology of “robot” is linked to “work” and to “drudgery”, and this is certainly a job that no one wants to do. Imagine all the sweatshop jobs being taken by robots. It’s going to happen.

[dualstow]

Reparations: Japan would owe so much money they’d be bankrupt.

[Libertarian666]

It depends on which minority race we're talking about.
Asians don't seem to be too unsuccessful compared to whites. Is that a cultural divide issue?
And of course Ashkenazis, although perhaps not really a race, are fairly successful as a group.

I guess we can't discuss what those two groups have in common, and in which they differ from the unsuccessful groups...

The number one difference is that Asians and Ashkenazis weren't brought here as slaves. Of course, they faced their own specific uphill battles. Railroad coolies, etc. Even Irish were discriminated against, despite being white. We probably all know about the "No Dogs, No Irish" signs. So, there almost certainly is a biological component at work (behind all the oppression and discrimination). There's something biological behind rape, too, but we can't just let that run free.

Ok, but how is the fact that your great-grandparents were brought here as slaves affecting present-day blacks? In particular, how does that account for their lower achievement?

[dualstow]

It’s complicated, but the short answer is that they are catching up. It’s going to take time.
Sure, for some people, it’s a choice. Bitterness, bad attitude, no desire to be a part of the system. For some.
However, I think there are also ripples of the past. Slave owners intentionally broke up the family unit. (I think that African Americans who grow up in a normal family have a shot at equal achievement).
And, it may be offensive for me to say this, but we actively bred slaves for brawn, not for Chess Club.

And then, there are those studies that indicate young black girls excel at subjects such as math on a par with white boys- up to a certain age. The studies’ authors drew the conclusion that cultural pressures changed things. In essence, that the girls’ “found out” that they were supposed to be dumber, and lo and behold, they began to fill that role.

The skeptical among us might say that they stopped scoring as high as their white peers because the subject got more complicated and that the Bell Curve was right. I don’t know, and I don’t remember all the details of the studies conducted.

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

[Libertarian666]

It’s complicated, but the short answer is that they are catching up. It’s going to take time.
Sure, for some people, it’s a choice. Bitterness, bad attitude, no desire to be a part of the system. For some.
However, I think there are also ripples of the past. Slave owners intentionally broke up the family unit. (I think that African Americans who grow up in a normal family have a shot at equal achievement).
And, it may be offensive for me to say this, but we actively bred slaves for brawn, not for Chess Club.

And then, there are those studies that indicate young black girls excel at subjects such as math on a par with white boys- up to a certain age. The studies’ authors drew the conclusion that cultural pressures changed things. In essence, that the girls’ “found out” that they were supposed to be dumber, and lo and behold, they began to fill that role.

The skeptical among us might say that they stopped scoring as high as their white peers because the subject got more complicated and that the Bell Curve was right. I don’t know, and I don’t remember all the details of the studies conducted.

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

I'd be willing to contribute my own money towards reparations in the form of a one-way ticket to the African country of their choice, as long as they give up their US citizenship and are barred from ever returning to the US.

How's that?

[WiseOne]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

[Libertarian666]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

I have a few ideas about that.

1. American undergrad schools are hideously infested with communist doctrine, which discourages independent thinking.
2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.
3. Teachers at the primary levels are, on average, the lowest-achieving students in college, so their students in turn generally aren't well prepared when they get to college.
4. There is a quota system to limit the number of students from the most intelligent cultural groups in the name of "diversity", which reduces the overall quality of the students.
5. Combining 3 and 4, the level of difficulty in college has been reduced so that students who couldn't do the work at an actual college level won't all flunk out.

Add these all up and it's not at all surprising that we have to import grad students and postdocs.

[dualstow]

Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

Laziness, victims of our own success?

[WiseOne]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

I have a few ideas about that.

1. American undergrad schools are hideously infested with communist doctrine, which discourages independent thinking.
2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.
3. Teachers at the primary levels are, on average, the lowest-achieving students in college, so their students in turn generally aren't well prepared when they get to college.
4. There is a quota system to limit the number of students from the most intelligent cultural groups in the name of "diversity", which reduces the overall quality of the students.
5. Combining 3 and 4, the level of difficulty in college has been reduced so that students who couldn't do the work at an actual college level won't all flunk out.

Add these all up and it's not at all surprising that we have to import grad students and postdocs.

Is there documentation to support of any of these points? Particularly #2. In terms of impact on higher education, specifically. I'd be interested to see it.

[dualstow]

Not exactly reparations, but I see today that Namibia is pushing the Germans to take responsibility for the genocide they perpetrated there.
https://www.dw.com/en/namibian-lawmaker ... er-sharing

I think they will. At least, they’ll do that before they accept responsibility for fomenting hatred in the middle east, resulting in the expulsion/flight of Jews out of places like Iraq and into Israel/Palestine.

[Kriegsspiel]

Just saw this and thought I'd share:

[Amy Harmon, NYT] No one tallies the number of black mathematicians in those departments, but as best I can tell, there are 13. That comes to seven-tenths of 1 percent of the total -— perhaps as far as any job classification gets from accurately reflecting the share of black Americans in the general adult population, which stands at 13 percent.
. . .
Blacks comprised 0.7% of those who scored 750 or above on the Math SAT, and also comprised 0.7% of Math professors. Looks to me as if there is no racial exclusion at all in doctoral level mathematics.
link

I checked; the JBHE appears to be a legit thing.

[Kriegsspiel]

2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.

Is there documentation to support of any of these points? Particularly #2. In terms of impact on higher education, specifically. I'd be interested to see it.

Documentation to support the assertion that there's a lack of due process in college tribunals? Or documentation that supports it as a reason males are scared to go to college?

[Libertarian666]

I have a few ideas about that.

1. American undergrad schools are hideously infested with communist doctrine, which discourages independent thinking.
2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.
3. Teachers at the primary levels are, on average, the lowest-achieving students in college, so their students in turn generally aren't well prepared when they get to college.
4. There is a quota system to limit the number of students from the most intelligent cultural groups in the name of "diversity", which reduces the overall quality of the students.
5. Combining 3 and 4, the level of difficulty in college has been reduced so that students who couldn't do the work at an actual college level won't all flunk out.

Add these all up and it's not at all surprising that we have to import grad students and postdocs.

Is there documentation to support of any of these points? Particularly #2. In terms of impact on higher education, specifically. I'd be interested to see it.

You don't need documentation; it's so obvious. Look at any medical school, dental school, law school, etc, class. No longer white male dominated, and the schools blatantly state that their mission is diversity over all else.

Btw, another reason for the lack of US born postdocs is money. The schools can command a much higher price to admit international students than in-state domestic ones. So economics of the school plays a role as well.

Absolutely.

[Xan]

However, I think there are also ripples of the past. Slave owners intentionally broke up the family unit. (I think that African Americans who grow up in a normal family have a shot at equal achievement).
And, it may be offensive for me to say this, but we actively bred slaves for brawn, not for Chess Club.

We need to look at when the current problems began.

As Thomas Sowell points out: https://www.creators.com/read/thomas-so ... liberalism

Nearly a hundred years of the supposed "legacy of slavery" found most black children being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent.

So, was it slavery and Jim Crow that destroyed the American black family? Or was it supposedly well-meaning social policies which discouraged marriage?

In general, being taken care of by the state doesn't go well. Ask the American Indians. The government told blacks they could and should get on the dole, but only if they were unmarried, and that they'd get more money the more kids they had out of wedlock.

I'm not sure how this might relate to the citizens' dividend issue: is it only a problem being a ward of the state if most other people are not?

[stuper1]

Yep, and at around the same time as the welfare state really got rolling, the immigration rules were changed and then eventually stopped being enforced, which caused a major influx of new citizens (both legal and illegal), many of which who were soon competing with blacks for the same jobs. So, now we have blacks being raised in one-parent households by single mothers, not learning good family values and discipline, and then once they get out of school, it's harder and harder for them to find a job. And voila, here we are today wondering why our racial problems haven't yet disappeared.

Note that all of this discussion is in a thread about TDS. I still don't see that Trump has done a single thing to exacerbate these problems, and in fact by tightening our border, reducing the supply of labor, he is only helping low-income people of any race. My wife is an immigrant from South America. All of her family support Trump, because they are tired of seeing people sneak into this country when the people from her family who immigrated here followed all the rules and waited many years to come here legally.

[dualstow]

Interesting quote, Xan (from Sowell). Maybe, it is from social policies, or at least something other than the legacy of slavery.

[WiseOne]

Btw, another reason for the lack of US born postdocs is money. The schools can command a much higher price to admit international students than in-state domestic ones. So economics of the school plays a role as well.

As far as I know, this is 100% not true. It is true that international undergraduates don't get offered financial aid. On the graduate and postdoc level in the science fields though, all students regardless of origin are supported by their advisor's grants, funded internal programs, and teaching assistantships. This certainly can explain why foreign graduate students are attracted to come here, although many come from countries with similar or better levels of student support. But it sure doesn't explain why American students vanish at the graduate level.

Kriegspiel: documentation that men are becoming afraid to go to college because of the sexual harassment policies. That's at least plausible but would be nice to see some hard evidence. I can tell you that I've seen a case of something like this first hand: a foreign graduate student in the lab of a collaborator working on our joint project was accused of harassment. The collaborator asked me to take him so he could continue his work with a change of venue. I was watching closely as I have women in my lab, and I saw not the slightest hint of any misbehavior, apart from a language barrier and some social awkwardness that no one in my group regarded as threatening. The accusations, after a few months, look like they're going nowhere, so he'll be able to return to his lab soon. The lost time over this hurt not only him, but also the collaborator and me - and both of us are women, so that's ironic indeed.

[Kriegsspiel]

Timely interview with Larry Elder. I woke up this morning thinking about that Thomas Sowell quote Xan posted and how Larry said similar things. Then I watched that video Hal posted and BAM... saw this one on my toobs. Larry hits on pretty much everything.

[WiseOne]

Ah I see. UIUC is a public university, so the higher rates you're talking about are out of state tuition rates. International students and Americans from other states pay the same rate.

My university is private, so tuition rates are the same for everyone. There's still a big influx of international students at all levels, but it's most notable at the graduate & postdoc levels in fields related to mine (i.e. science). Tuition doesn't explain it. Diversity quotas might, but I think those are mainly at the undergrad level. Postdoc and graduate student decisions are much more individualized - particularly postdocs which are entirely at the discretion of the hiring PI. And believe me, productivity and papers are FAR higher on our priority lists than "diversity".

[dualstow]

What happens when all these foreign students meet the peculiar culture currently permeating American campuses? Are they going to help fix it, or are they going to return to their home countries and teach their peers that their native language needs extra pronouns?
:-)

[flyingpylon]

2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.

N=1 and all, but as the father of a teenage son who is starting to look at colleges, I don't think (and he and his friends don't appear to think) that the risk of false accusations outweighs the benefit of a college degree in obtaining future employment.

[Libertarian666]

2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.

N=1 and all, but as the father of a teenage son who is starting to look at colleges, I don't think (and he and his friends don't appear to think) that the risk of false accusations outweighs the benefit of a college degree in obtaining future employment.

And we know that extremely intelligent teenagers have excellent judgment when it comes to predicting their futures. Right?

Seriously, though, I can say that if I had a teenage son, I wouldn't send him to college unless it was one of the VERY few that doesn't have such a toxic environment, e.g., Hillsdale.

[moda0306]

2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.

N=1 and all, but as the father of a teenage son who is starting to look at colleges, I don't think (and he and his friends don't appear to think) that the risk of false accusations outweighs the benefit of a college degree in obtaining future employment.

And we know that extremely intelligent teenagers have excellent judgment when it comes to predicting their futures. Right?

Seriously, though, I can say that if I had a teenage son, I wouldn't send him to college unless it was one of the VERY few that doesn't have such a toxic environment, e.g., Hillsdale.

If you had a daughter is there any time you wouldn't have "sent her" to college due to the environment?

[flyingpylon]

2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.

N=1 and all, but as the father of a teenage son who is starting to look at colleges, I don't think (and he and his friends don't appear to think) that the risk of false accusations outweighs the benefit of a college degree in obtaining future employment.

And we know that extremely intelligent teenagers have excellent judgment when it comes to predicting their futures. Right?

Seriously, though, I can say that if I had a teenage son, I wouldn't send him to college unless it was one of the VERY few that doesn't have such a toxic environment, e.g., Hillsdale.

Most excellent judgment... just ask them!

He has been made well aware that the cards may be heavily stacked against him in such circumstances and that he should act accordingly.

[Libertarian666]

N=1 and all, but as the father of a teenage son who is starting to look at colleges, I don't think (and he and his friends don't appear to think) that the risk of false accusations outweighs the benefit of a college degree in obtaining future employment.

And we know that extremely intelligent teenagers have excellent judgment when it comes to predicting their futures. Right?

Seriously, though, I can say that if I had a teenage son, I wouldn't send him to college unless it was one of the VERY few that doesn't have such a toxic environment, e.g., Hillsdale.

Most excellent judgment... just ask them!

He has been made well aware that the cards may be heavily stacked against him in such circumstances and that he should act accordingly.

Ok, I hope he makes a good decision.

Because in the current environment he could be affected for life.