Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

There is no absolute right and wrong. How I just convinced myself was thinking about the "peak" statement by mountaineer, but maybe in a different way.

I used to step on ants and squash lightning bugs when I was a kid, just for fun. Now I purposely go out of my way to not kill most bugs, unless it is a spider and my wife needs me to. I don't think twice, usually, that I just killed a living thing, simply because of the scale difference between me and the bug.

As you get to bigger bugs, it's much harder, because they squish/crunch, and you can feel them.

I recall having a BB gun as a kid. Shot a rabbit. But only wounded it, still bleeding. Needed to get my Dad to finish the job. Harder still to take a small animal life.

Can't imagine killing a dog, cow, horse, etc. or a human for that matter.

But back to scale, if you recall Men in Black, how we are all in a universe inside a pendant on some alien. What would it take for that alien to crush the universe and not care? Nothing. not wrong in their view, no big deal. That alien is in effect God.

Does that make me an atheist?

Cortopassi, why do you want to know?

Easy answer, I am an engineer. I like to understand things. "Faith" that an electronic device I designed is going to work doesn't usually work out well.

Harder answer, I grew up Catholic. Some small part of me wants to believe, but always loses out to the bigger part.

I am an engineer also. My short answer to your question (Does that make me an atheist?) is if you ask that question, you are not. Perhaps your small part is bigger than you think.

[Cortopassi]

I am an engineer also. My short answer to your question (Does that make me an atheist?) is if you ask that question, you are not. Perhaps your small part is bigger than you think.

Could be. I am open to anything. I've told my daughter at Notre Dame, if religion and theology classes click with you, I am perfectly fine with her going in that direction.

I am sure a lot has to do with the Catholic upbringing. In the few times I have been in other churches (Methodist? Lutheran?) the services and everything about them were much more appealing, and if I was brought up in one of those, I am sure I could have ended up a religious guy.

I would pose Elon Musk's thoughts, that we are all a simulation. If the sky opened up tomorrow and a big guy or some being peered down and said "Ok you guys, I didn't program you to kill yourselves all the time and I have half a mind to pull the plug if you don't shape up..." is that big guy God? If not, why not?

[Mountaineer]

I am an engineer also. My short answer to your question (Does that make me an atheist?) is if you ask that question, you are not. Perhaps your small part is bigger than you think.

Could be. I am open to anything. I've told my daughter at Notre Dame, if religion and theology classes click with you, I am perfectly fine with her going in that direction.

I am sure a lot has to do with the Catholic upbringing. In the few times I have been in other churches (Methodist? Lutheran?) the services and everything about them were much more appealing, and if I was brought up in one of those, I am sure I could have ended up a religious guy.

I would pose Elon Musk's thoughts, that we are all a simulation. If the sky opened up tomorrow and a big guy or some being peered down and said "Ok you guys, I didn't program you to kill yourselves all the time and I have half a mind to pull the plug if you don't shape up..." is that big guy God? If not, why not?

.


God - the source of your meaning, identity and security is your god (definition by Robert Kolb).

Thus, if you saw an opening in the sky with a big guy/being that said those words "OK you guys, ...." and you derived your meaning, identity and security from that big guy/being, I'd say it was your god. If that big guy happened to be Jesus returning on the Last Day to judge the living and the dead (i.e. He pulled the plug after having given everyone a chance to repent and turn to the Lord) and your source of meaning, identity and security is Jesus, I'd say that the big guy is the God. I think I'll trust the God for my eternity as he is the only person that has been resurrected from the dead. Meanwhile, back to the Matrix? .....

.

[jacksonM]

I am an engineer also. My short answer to your question (Does that make me an atheist?) is if you ask that question, you are not. Perhaps your small part is bigger than you think.

Could be. I am open to anything. I've told my daughter at Notre Dame, if religion and theology classes click with you, I am perfectly fine with her going in that direction.

I am sure a lot has to do with the Catholic upbringing. In the few times I have been in other churches (Methodist? Lutheran?) the services and everything about them were much more appealing, and if I was brought up in one of those, I am sure I could have ended up a religious guy.

I would pose Elon Musk's thoughts, that we are all a simulation. If the sky opened up tomorrow and a big guy or some being peered down and said "Ok you guys, I didn't program you to kill yourselves all the time and I have half a mind to pull the plug if you don't shape up..." is that big guy God? If not, why not?

.


God - the source of your meaning, identity and security is your god (definition by Robert Kolb).

Thus, if you saw an opening in the sky with a big guy/being that said those words "OK you guys, ...." and you derived your meaning, identity and security from that big guy/being, I'd say it was your god. If that big guy happened to be Jesus returning on the Last Day to judge the living and the dead (i.e. He pulled the plug after having given everyone a chance to repent and turn to the Lord) and your source of meaning, identity and security is Jesus, I'd say that the big guy is the God. I think I'll trust the God for my eternity as he is the only person that has been resurrected from the dead. Meanwhile, back to the Matrix? .....

.

I've been watching Planet Earth 2 on Netflix ( Highly recommended - and I think I posted a link to a youtube video before with one small segment).

What I can't help but wonder while watching the fascinating videos of what other creatures on the planet have to do survive is 1.) How in the heck did they ever film this? and 2.) The Bible says that nature declares the glory of god so I have to ask what kind of god would it be that designed a world like this?

I know that in Christian theology it is all blamed on the sinfulness of man but how that lets God off the hook is beyond me. What kind of god makes all of creation suffer just because two human beings ate a forbidden fruit?

I am open to the idea that there may be an intelligent designer of the universe but for the life of me I don't see how anyone can look at nature and declare that "God is love" or that he even cares that much about his creation. Maybe if you were smoking pot somewhere in a beautiful location you could do that but how can you actually look at the utter cruelty and indifference of nature and make that claim?

If there is an intelligent designer, aka god, then I think it would be better to think of him like someone doing a science experiment, letting things go as they may and checking on the results later.

[jacksonM]

GREETING FROM TIM

On the night of Jesus' birth, an angel began what we've come to call "discipleship." That angel made a divine pronouncement of Jesus' birth and gave explicit directions on how to find this newly born savior. The shepherds heard this pronouncement as just what the angel said it was: "Good News!" Among themselves they chattered, "Let's go! Let's go see! Let's go see what has been made known to us!" Off they went to Bethlehem. Once there, they located the holy family and found the baby... the Messiah... the very Son of God... God himself. Those shepherds had gotten themselves in the presence of Jesus Christ and they were "discipled." In the presence of the Christ-child, manger-laid and well-swaddled, those shepherds knew the truth of the Good News announced by the angel and sung by the heavenly host. Back they went to their darkened hillside and shadowy sheep, but their return was filled with the praise and glory of God because their savior... their Christ... their Lord was truly theirs in the flesh and come to meet them in their lowly estate.

You, too, have an angel... a messenger. This person brings the announcement of where you will be discipled-that is, where you will be in the presence of your savior... your Christ... your Lord. This messenger may be a family member, a neighbor, or your preacher. Whoever that messenger may be, he or she will point to the time and place-a worship service at a local church-where Jesus Christ will be present for you. You may decide or not whether you will "go and see" what has been made known to you. Once there, you will hear that Jesus Christ, your Savior and Lord, comes to meet you at the baptismal font, at the pulpit, and at the Lord's Table. You will have gotten yourself into the presence of Jesus Christ and you will have been "discipled." In the presence of the Christ, no longer a child but died and resurrected, you will know the truth of the Good News announced by your particular messenger: This Jesus is "for you!" At the singing of the final hymn, when the last candle is extinguished, you will-as the shepherds did-return to home and work. That return will be filled with the praise and glory of God because your savior... your Christ... your Lord is truly yours in the flesh and come to meet you in your lowly estate.

The blessings of Christmas rest upon you and yours,


Rev. Timothy J. Swenson
Dean of Chapel
Institute of Lutheran Theology

Explicit directions for finding the Christ child were also given to the wise men who visited from the east. They simply followed a star which apparently gave exact co-ordinates like a GPS.

For some reason however, the star first led them to Jerusalem so it could become known to Herod that the savior was born in Bethlehem. And then he went and had all the babies in Bethlehem under the age of 2 killed (I mean Herod, not god, though it's hard to figure what god must have been thinking).

Have you ever wondered why God did that? The Bible says it was so some obscure passage in the Old Testament about Rachel weeping for her children could be fulfilled.

Say what?

[Mountaineer]

GREETING FROM TIM

On the night of Jesus' birth, an angel began what we've come to call "discipleship." That angel made a divine pronouncement of Jesus' birth and gave explicit directions on how to find this newly born savior. The shepherds heard this pronouncement as just what the angel said it was: "Good News!" Among themselves they chattered, "Let's go! Let's go see! Let's go see what has been made known to us!" Off they went to Bethlehem. Once there, they located the holy family and found the baby... the Messiah... the very Son of God... God himself. Those shepherds had gotten themselves in the presence of Jesus Christ and they were "discipled." In the presence of the Christ-child, manger-laid and well-swaddled, those shepherds knew the truth of the Good News announced by the angel and sung by the heavenly host. Back they went to their darkened hillside and shadowy sheep, but their return was filled with the praise and glory of God because their savior... their Christ... their Lord was truly theirs in the flesh and come to meet them in their lowly estate.

You, too, have an angel... a messenger. This person brings the announcement of where you will be discipled-that is, where you will be in the presence of your savior... your Christ... your Lord. This messenger may be a family member, a neighbor, or your preacher. Whoever that messenger may be, he or she will point to the time and place-a worship service at a local church-where Jesus Christ will be present for you. You may decide or not whether you will "go and see" what has been made known to you. Once there, you will hear that Jesus Christ, your Savior and Lord, comes to meet you at the baptismal font, at the pulpit, and at the Lord's Table. You will have gotten yourself into the presence of Jesus Christ and you will have been "discipled." In the presence of the Christ, no longer a child but died and resurrected, you will know the truth of the Good News announced by your particular messenger: This Jesus is "for you!" At the singing of the final hymn, when the last candle is extinguished, you will-as the shepherds did-return to home and work. That return will be filled with the praise and glory of God because your savior... your Christ... your Lord is truly yours in the flesh and come to meet you in your lowly estate.

The blessings of Christmas rest upon you and yours,


Rev. Timothy J. Swenson
Dean of Chapel
Institute of Lutheran Theology

Explicit directions for finding the Christ child were also given to the wise men who visited from the east. They simply followed a star which apparently gave exact co-ordinates like a GPS.

For some reason however, the star first led them to Jerusalem so it could become known to Herod that the savior was born in Bethlehem. And then he went and had all the babies in Bethlehem under the age of 2 killed (I mean Herod, not god, though it's hard to figure what god must have been thinking).

Have you ever wondered why God did that? The Bible says it was so some obscure passage in the Old Testament about Rachel weeping for her children could be fulfilled.

Say what?

Have I ever wondered why God did that? Sure, but Scripture (the revealed Word of God) does not really say and we are not to question the hidden side of God, or want to know what God has not revealed (the original sin which got us into our mess that we currently experience and is culminated by temporal death which did not exist prior to that original sin). My take on Matthew 2:16-18 is: The focus is God did whatever it took to assure that his plan to save mankind would come to pass: thus, Jesus and his family escaped to Egypt which enabled Jesus to ultimately fulfill his mission to save us by dying for our sins on the cross and rising from the dead to assume his position at the right hand of God the Father from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead on the Last Day. The males under the age of two that Herod had killed were the first martyrs according to some; thus, they are likely spending eternity with God which is the ultimate goal for humans who believe - they just got there quicker than you and I may think is appropriate. God never promises believers a life of happiness, just the opposite. Persecution has happened to believers since the get go and will continue to the Last Day. Some of us die at birth, or even months before, and some of us live a long life relatively trouble free. Who knows why. My take.

[Cortopassi]

If that big guy happened to be Jesus returning on the Last Day to judge the living and the dead (i.e. He pulled the plug after having given everyone a chance to repent and turn to the Lord) and your source of meaning, identity and security is Jesus, I'd say that the big guy is the God.

I love these discussions, I miss my big family get togethers talking about these things and yelling across the table.

--How would you know if that big guy is Jesus? If it is an advanced enough civilization that has been following our history and knows all the right things to say, couldn't they mimic Jesus? They could do what we'd consider miracles, they could cause the end of the world, etc.

I see some percentage looking up at this apparition thinking it is a government conspiracy, another percentage thinking it is the second coming, and another group thinking it is some aliens screwing with us, or coercing us to do what they want.

How do you know? You can't.

[Mountaineer]

If that big guy happened to be Jesus returning on the Last Day to judge the living and the dead (i.e. He pulled the plug after having given everyone a chance to repent and turn to the Lord) and your source of meaning, identity and security is Jesus, I'd say that the big guy is the God.

I love these discussions, I miss my big family get togethers talking about these things and yelling across the table.

--How would you know if that big guy is Jesus? If it is an advanced enough civilization that has been following our history and knows all the right things to say, couldn't they mimic Jesus? They could do what we'd consider miracles, they could cause the end of the world, etc.

I see some percentage looking up at this apparition thinking it is a government conspiracy, another percentage thinking it is the second coming, and another group thinking it is some aliens screwing with us, or coercing us to do what they want.

How do you know? You can't.

I too enjoy these discussions; they are an opportunity to test my beliefs and why I hold those beliefs in ways I might not have thought of on my own. Your questions: "How do you know? You can't." You are possibly correct, if you limit yourself to only reason / the cognitive. I do very much agree reason applied to temporal matters is important. For example, how do you know George Washington existed? How do you know who raised your great-great grandmother or what she ate for breakfast on her 6th birthday? How do you know Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon? How do you know water will come from the spigot when you turn the handle and not cyanide? Faith in something external to yourself - e.g. eye witness accounts, authors, evidence, a good track record, past predictions that have come true. In the end, all we have to answer those types of questions is evidence - and faith. How do we know we are not in the matrix? You could be right. Will you have faith in an alien? Will you have faith that your eyes will not deceive you? Will you have faith in something else? What are the consequences of faith in the "wrong" entity? We each pay our money and take our chances.

In the mean time, have a wonderful Christmas Eve and enjoy your friends and family - if that is who they really are and not some critters from Men in Black! Movies and books that explore the questions you pose are plentiful. Do you have faith that they are all wrong, or all right, or partially some of each? Seriously, have a great Christmas Eve and Christmas!

Scripture is clear that Satan, the great deceiver, the father of lies, has been trying to separate us human creatures from our Creator for a very long time and will continue to do so until the Last Day.

I like these verses:

John 20:30-31 (ESV)
The Purpose of This Book
30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Hebrews 11:1 (ESV)
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Mark 13:21-23 (ESV)
21 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

1 John 4:1-3 (ESV)
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

1 Corinthians 1:21-23 (ESV)
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

[jacksonM]

Have I ever wondered why God did that? Sure, but Scripture (the revealed Word of God) does not really say and we are not to question the hidden side of God, or want to know what God has not revealed (the original sin which got us into our mess that we currently experience and is culminated by temporal death which did not exist prior to that original sin).

In other words, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain because the great and powerful Oz has spoken.

I call this "Heads God wins, tails you lose" theology. It works well in North Korea where they regard their dear leader as a god.

(As an addendum - if there was no death on earth before the "original sin" of Adam and Eve then where did all the fossil fuels come from? And how would Adam and Eve have even known what dying was? I think this idea only works if the multiverse theory is true and the Bible story is talking about a different universe than the one we find ourselves in.)

[Mountaineer]

A very Merry Christmas to all!

[Stillwaters]

Longtime PP’er and Lurker here. This is my attempt to prime the pump on the Religion thread for 2019! Here is an inquiry that has long fascinated me:

The apparent reality that we currently reside seems to be made up of an admixture of various 'Polarity of Opposites".

Light/Dark
Male/Female
Empty/Full
Up/Down

You get the picture. No one polarity could exist without its opposite in the field of space and time. Example: A reasonable mixture of light and darkness is required for the eye to properly discern objects, all light or all darkness and we are blind. Here is my point of confusion. It appears that the Christian God (in the form of God the father) is depicted as male or male in nature as if staking out a position on one end of a polarity. My questions:

1) Do believers believe that God (not Jesus but God the father) is truely male in nature?

2) If the answer is Yes, then what attribute or attributes define this maleness?
Obviously, in the real world maleness can be defined (for simplicity sake lets leave out the new PC gender definitions) as possessing male genitalia, certain levels of male hormones, sperm production, luxurious beard production (as seen in Art). etc. It would seem highly unlikely for God to possess such anthropomorphic physical attributes so thus what then constitutes maleness?

Any answers in one’s own words (as opposed to Scripture) would be greatly appreciated and much better understood.

[Mountaineer]

Longtime PP’er and Lurker here. This is my attempt to prime the pump on the Religion thread for 2019! Here is an inquiry that has long fascinated me:

The apparent reality that we currently reside seems to be made up of an admixture of various 'Polarity of Opposites".

Light/Dark
Male/Female
Empty/Full
Up/Down

You get the picture. No one polarity could exist without its opposite in the field of space and time. Example: A reasonable mixture of light and darkness is required for the eye to properly discern objects, all light or all darkness and we are blind. Here is my point of confusion. It appears that the Christian God (in the form of God the father) is depicted as male or male in nature as if staking out a position on one end of a polarity. My questions:

1) Do believers believe that God (not Jesus but God the father) is truely male in nature?

2) If the answer is Yes, then what attribute or attributes define this maleness?
Obviously, in the real world maleness can be defined (for simplicity sake lets leave out the new PC gender definitions) as possessing male genitalia, certain levels of male hormones, sperm production, luxurious beard production (as seen in Art). etc. It would seem highly unlikely for God to possess such anthropomorphic physical attributes so thus what then constitutes maleness?

Any answers in one’s own words (as opposed to Scripture) would be greatly appreciated and much better understood.

Stillwater,
Welcome to "posting" on the forum!

Your question is a big one. From my perspective, it deals with trying to understand the Trinity, which from my view point is incomprehensible for man to understand. There are many mysteries in Scripture, the Trinity is one of them. In fact, my tradition says our Pastors are stewards of the mysteries of God. If we understood everything, we would be God. Wanting to be God, or like God, or not trusting His Word, or doubting His Word is the original sin. From my perspective, we can only confess that Scripture is true, not prove it, even though there is quite a bit of evidence that Scripture is true. Thus, faith, which in and of itself is a gift from God. That said, I believe God is Father in a figurative sense (to help us understand Him, albeit to a limited degree) not a physical sense. I suggest you read these sources that may help you delve into more thinking about your questions and perhaps generate some additional ones. Forgive me if I've just confused you.

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... HER.GODTHE

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... rd=TRINITY (the Athanasian Creed deals with the Trinity)

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... ticle=1165

Blessings.

[jacksonM]

Longtime PP’er and Lurker here. This is my attempt to prime the pump on the Religion thread for 2019! Here is an inquiry that has long fascinated me:

The apparent reality that we currently reside seems to be made up of an admixture of various 'Polarity of Opposites".

Light/Dark
Male/Female
Empty/Full
Up/Down

You get the picture. No one polarity could exist without its opposite in the field of space and time. Example: A reasonable mixture of light and darkness is required for the eye to properly discern objects, all light or all darkness and we are blind. Here is my point of confusion. It appears that the Christian God (in the form of God the father) is depicted as male or male in nature as if staking out a position on one end of a polarity. My questions:

1) Do believers believe that God (not Jesus but God the father) is truely male in nature?

2) If the answer is Yes, then what attribute or attributes define this maleness?
Obviously, in the real world maleness can be defined (for simplicity sake lets leave out the new PC gender definitions) as possessing male genitalia, certain levels of male hormones, sperm production, luxurious beard production (as seen in Art). etc. It would seem highly unlikely for God to possess such anthropomorphic physical attributes so thus what then constitutes maleness?

Any answers in one’s own words (as opposed to Scripture) would be greatly appreciated and much better understood.

Good luck with your attempt to introduce reason into the religion discussion. You might as well beat your head against a wall.

God is male because the Bible says so. Case closed.

[Stillwaters]

Longtime PP’er and Lurker here. This is my attempt to prime the pump on the Religion thread for 2019! Here is an inquiry that has long fascinated me:

The apparent reality that we currently reside seems to be made up of an admixture of various 'Polarity of Opposites".

Light/Dark
Male/Female
Empty/Full
Up/Down

You get the picture. No one polarity could exist without its opposite in the field of space and time. Example: A reasonable mixture of light and darkness is required for the eye to properly discern objects, all light or all darkness and we are blind. Here is my point of confusion. It appears that the Christian God (in the form of God the father) is depicted as male or male in nature as if staking out a position on one end of a polarity. My questions:

1) Do believers believe that God (not Jesus but God the father) is truely male in nature?

2) If the answer is Yes, then what attribute or attributes define this maleness?
Obviously, in the real world maleness can be defined (for simplicity sake lets leave out the new PC gender definitions) as possessing male genitalia, certain levels of male hormones, sperm production, luxurious beard production (as seen in Art). etc. It would seem highly unlikely for God to possess such anthropomorphic physical attributes so thus what then constitutes maleness?

Any answers in one’s own words (as opposed to Scripture) would be greatly appreciated and much better understood.

Stillwater,
Welcome to "posting" on the forum!

Your question is a big one. From my perspective, it deals with trying to understand the Trinity, which from my view point is incomprehensible for man to understand. There are many mysteries in Scripture, the Trinity is one of them. In fact, my tradition says our Pastors are stewards of the mysteries of God. If we understood everything, we would be God. Wanting to be God, or like God, or not trusting His Word, or doubting His Word is the original sin. From my perspective, we can only confess that Scripture is true, not prove it, even though there is quite a bit of evidence that Scripture is true. Thus, faith, which in and of itself is a gift from God. That said, I believe God is Father in a figurative sense (to help us understand Him, albeit to a limited degree) not a physical sense. I suggest you read these sources that may help you delve into more thinking about your questions and perhaps generate some additional ones. Forgive me if I've just confused you.

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... HER.GODTHE

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... rd=TRINITY (the Athanasian Creed deals with the Trinity)

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConte ... ticle=1165

Blessings.

Thanks for the response Mountaineer. Your position of taking the matter “figuratively” is more sophisticated and nuanced than some other Christians I know. This would suggest a non-literal reading of the text and thus HE, HIM, FATHER are more symbolic. Understanding that the Old Testament Middle East was a very patriarchal society and a only a Father figure type would be related to best in this cultural context. For those in a different cultural milieu it could then be appropriate to view and to refer to God in a strictly gender neutral fashion but that would probably not be practical (i.e. using IT). However, could we even go so far as to say it is appropriate in Matriarchal societies, that have heard the word, to think of God the Mother in order to better assimilate the Christian teaching? I believe from the readings you posted, the answer would be NO.

Anyway, I found interesting the piece you sent to me by Bert Thompson clarifying that there are no genders in heaven:

Spirits—because they are non-corporeal beings—have no physical body, and thus, by definition, are incapable of possessing gender. In speaking of the humans who one day will inhabit the heavenly realm, Jesus remarked that
they “neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as angels” (Matthew 22:30). His point was that we shall not take up our earthly gender roles in heaven, just as the angels, as spirit beings, have played no gender roles
throughout their existence. Similarly, God, as a Spirit Being Who inhabits the heavenly realm, has no gender.

I think I understand your position on Fundamentalists vs. Lutheran interpretation. I did find it quite strange that in a very large and rapidly growing Fundamentalist Church in my city they teach “Yes, there is sex in heaven”. The innumerable sects and enormous variety of interpretation within Christianity is quite confounding.

In any event, the question of God the Father being a man is now cleared up for me at least from a Lutheran perspective.

Finally, one remark of yours did stand out: 'If we understood everything, we would be God. Wanting to be God, or like God, or not trusting His Word, or doubting His Word is the original sin.’
I have no illusions of understanding “everything”. But this statement seems to indicate that honest discussion and exploration to understand is in essence a sin. Does this not automatically shutdown all further dialog between Believers and those that question?

[Mountaineer]

Finally, one remark of yours did stand out: 'If we understood everything, we would be God. Wanting to be God, or like God, or not trusting His Word, or doubting His Word is the original sin.’
I have no illusions of understanding “everything”. But this statement seems to indicate that honest discussion and exploration to understand is in essence a sin. Does this not automatically shutdown all further dialog between Believers and those that question?

Stillwater, thanks for the followup. I'll try address your question.

Lutherans do not explore the hidden side of God, i.e. that side which God, for whatever His reasons, has chosen not to reveal to us. That hidden God is the God of wrath which presumably no one wants to encounter (the God of wrath cannot have sin in His presence and we are all sinners). The revealed God comes in His Word in the Holy Scriptures and in the physical presence of Jesus, His Word, on the cross two thousand years ago and in Jesus' body and blood at the sacrament of the Lord's Table. The revealed God is sufficient for our salvation. So, if I understand your question correctly, I do not believe that an understanding of original sin or understanding that we are all sinners shuts down further dialog or exploration to understand God's Word which is a lifelong study with new insights discovered or revealed almost every time I read, ponder, and study a Biblical text. The revealed Word is sufficient to understand that which God wishes us to understand.

One additional comment is that the hermeneutics used to interpret Scripture is very important. A couple of keys, again from the Lutheran perspective, are: Scripture interprets Scripture with the more clear parts used to help with the unclear parts. Scripture is Christocentric, that is read via the lens of Jesus being in the Scriptures both Old and New Testaments (Covenants). Understand the difference between God's Law and God's Gospel - Law is what God tells us to do or not do, Gospel is what God did for us; only the Gospel saves, Law is God's will for all humanity, believers and unbelivers - e.g. do not murder. Understand what is prescriptive and what is descriptive when reading Scripture. 'I don't know', or 'the Scriptures do not say' are acceptable answers, far superior to inventing an answer that is what we think it should be.

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss.

[Stillwaters]

Changing course. Per Mountaineer the gate to salvation is “narrow”. Based on his previous positions and writings I can somewhat appreciate his viewpoint on this. I would like to better understand the nuances that define this.

It seems widely recognized that the path to understanding/belief comes in many forms based on the inherent nature (one could say wiring) of ones personality. All around the world, throughout time and religious traditions there have been those drawn to a belief system based on several different inclinations. The most simple contrasting examples would be the path of devotion (or of the heart) versus say the path of knowledge (or the intellect). Both end in the same place, FAITH, but get there by very different means and are sustained by different means.

This also ties in somewhat to the personality types. I could be wrong, but I believe that you (Mountaineer) mentioned you were an INTJ. I believe that would make you a dominant “intuitive". Someone like a ESFJ would be a dominant “feeler”. I would think one of these “feeler” personality types would have a higher probability toward coming to FAITH though a personal connection or emotion based devotion. To do otherwise would be asking a Dog to act like a Cat. Considering there are something like sixteen personality types we humans come prewired into adulthood with very unique (from each other) ways of viewing and interpreting the world.

So…just how narrow is this gate would be the operative question.

I understand that in the end only God will know who enters the narrow gate. However, I suspect that Mountaineer (or the others) have a sense for how narrow that gate is so I would like your best guess/opinion on the following. (Obviously these are critical distinctions as followers need to clearly understand the boundary lines on such life and death matters.)

Here goes: Which of the following will likely NOT reach salvation among Christian adherents:

1) Someone who came to Belief through a heartfelt personal/emotional connection but is not particularly drawn to scripture writings for inspiration.
2) Someone who came to Belief through an intuitive sense that this is the Truth from a holistic/Gestalt standpoint. Again precise scripture reading and understanding is not central to this person.
3) Someone came to Belief through a mystical encounter that was either supernatural in nature or of a Transcendent “knowing” that confirmed for them the truth of Christianity. This would typically be a one-time water-shed event that changes a persons outlook permanently.
4) Fundamentalists who do NOT "use scripture to interpret scripture" and do NOT interpret scripture in “Context” but are obsessive about literal interpretations and the application thereof.

If all or most of these paths are legitimate then I would think the gate is much less narrow than suspected and the Lutheran/Orthodox path not as critical. Otherwise, the way we are “wired” early in life may be the ultimate “predestination” for which we have no control over.

Again, I would ask that the answers be in one's own words as scriptural language is oftentimes incoherent and/or confusing to me.

Thanks for your patience on these questions.

[Mountaineer]

Changing course. Per Mountaineer the gate to salvation is “narrow”. Based on his previous positions and writings I can somewhat appreciate his viewpoint on this. I would like to better understand the nuances that define this.

It seems widely recognized that the path to understanding/belief comes in many forms based on the inherent nature (one could say wiring) of ones personality. All around the world, throughout time and religious traditions there have been those drawn to a belief system based on several different inclinations. The most simple contrasting examples would be the path of devotion (or of the heart) versus say the path of knowledge (or the intellect). Both end in the same place, FAITH, but get there by very different means and are sustained by different means.

This also ties in somewhat to the personality types. I could be wrong, but I believe that you (Mountaineer) mentioned you were an INTJ. I believe that would make you a dominant “intuitive". Someone like a ESFJ would be a dominant “feeler”. I would think one of these “feeler” personality types would have a higher probability toward coming to FAITH though a personal connection or emotion based devotion. To do otherwise would be asking a Dog to act like a Cat. Considering there are something like sixteen personality types we humans come prewired into adulthood with very unique (from each other) ways of viewing and interpreting the world.

So…just how narrow is this gate would be the operative question.

I understand that in the end only God will know who enters the narrow gate. However, I suspect that Mountaineer (or the others) have a sense for how narrow that gate is so I would like your best guess/opinion on the following. (Obviously these are critical distinctions as followers need to clearly understand the boundary lines on such life and death matters.)

Here goes: Which of the following will likely NOT reach salvation among Christian adherents:

1) Someone who came to Belief through a heartfelt personal/emotional connection but is not particularly drawn to scripture writings for inspiration.
2) Someone who came to Belief through an intuitive sense that this is the Truth from a holistic/Gestalt standpoint. Again precise scripture reading and understanding is not central to this person.
3) Someone came to Belief through a mystical encounter that was either supernatural in nature or of a Transcendent “knowing” that confirmed for them the truth of Christianity. This would typically be a one-time water-shed event that changes a persons outlook permanently.
4) Fundamentalists who do NOT "use scripture to interpret scripture" and do NOT interpret scripture in “Context” but are obsessive about literal interpretations and the application thereof.

If all or most of these paths are legitimate then I would think the gate is much less narrow than suspected and the Lutheran/Orthodox path not as critical. Otherwise, the way we are “wired” early in life may be the ultimate “predestination” for which we have no control over.

Again, I would ask that the answers be in one's own words as scriptural language is oftentimes incoherent and/or confusing to me.

Thanks for your patience on these questions.

Stillwater, a few thoughts:

The Good News is God wants everyone to be saved. It is our own fault if we do not pay attention to His call. Perhaps Jesus says the way is narrow because He knows the ways of the world are more attractive to many than the ways of God (after all, who does not want to be their own god - e.g. if it feels good, do it - don't worry, be happy - love self more than neighbor - have sex with whomever you want. The culture via TV, movies, the media, advertisers, pound this into our ears and eyes 24/7/265) and can drown out God's call; Satan does do everything he can to distract us from that which is truly important.

I can address who WILL be saved according to what the Scriptures say. Through the proclamation of the Word of God, people receive ears to hear and eyes to see. When God opens the eyes and ears (paticularly so one understands they are a sinner deserving of God's wrath and who must repent and turn to God) then the heart can be converted by the comforting words of the Gospel. Those who believe are saved because of the work Jesus Christ did on the cross to atone for all sins of everyone of all time. We are justified (made righteous in God's sight for the sake of Jesus) by our faith in Jesus, or in the OT by faith in YHWH (e.g. Abraham believed, Moses believed, David believed). Jesus says I am THE (note, not A way among many) way, the truth and the life. Those who believe in Jesus' promises will be with Him eternally. It is impossible for me (since I am not God) to know what anyone other than myself really believes. Thus, I cannot answer your questions about who will NOT be saved. I think it is much more important that people believe in Jesus than any particular method or way they came to belief. I think those who honestly confess the Apostles Creed will be saved as that is a good summary of Christian belief; I expect there are many others who will be saved as many Christian denominations do not confess the Creed but they do believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ. You may wish to read Romans 10 and John 3 if you have not done so recently. Personally, I like The Lutheran Study Bible, Concordia Publishing House, ESV translation. It is readable and has excellent notes.

Blessings, and keep the questions coming if you like. It is not a bother and I will answer when I can. Of course, there are others on this forum who can also chime in to address your questions from their perspectives.

[Stillwaters]

Stillwater, a few thoughts:

The Good News is God wants everyone to be saved. It is our own fault if we do not pay attention to His call. Perhaps Jesus says the way is narrow because He knows the ways of the world are more attractive to many than the ways of God (after all, who does not want to be their own god - e.g. if it feels good, do it - don't worry, be happy - love self more than neighbor - have sex with whomever you want. The culture via TV, movies, the media, advertisers, pound this into our ears and eyes 24/7/265) and can drown out God's call; Satan does do everything he can to distract us from that which is truly important.

I can address who WILL be saved according to what the Scriptures say. Through the proclamation of the Word of God, people receive ears to hear and eyes to see. When God opens the eyes and ears (paticularly so one understands they are a sinner deserving of God's wrath and who must repent and turn to God) then the heart can be converted by the comforting words of the Gospel. Those who believe are saved because of the work Jesus Christ did on the cross to atone for all sins of everyone of all time. We are justified (made righteous in God's sight for the sake of Jesus) by our faith in Jesus, or in the OT by faith in YHWH (e.g. Abraham believed, Moses believed, David believed). Jesus says I am THE (note, not A way among many) way, the truth and the life. Those who believe in Jesus' promises will be with Him eternally. It is impossible for me (since I am not God) to know what anyone other than myself really believes. Thus, I cannot answer your questions about who will NOT be saved. I think it is much more important that people believe in Jesus than any particular method or way they came to belief. I think those who honestly confess the Apostles Creed will be saved as that is a good summary of Christian belief; I expect there are many others who will be saved as many Christian denominations do not confess the Creed but they do believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ. You may wish to read Romans 10 and John 3 if you have not done so recently. Personally, I like The Lutheran Study Bible, Concordia Publishing House, ESV translation. It is readable and has excellent notes.

Blessings, and keep the questions coming if you like. It is not a bother and I will answer when I can. Of course, there are others on this forum who can also chime in to address your questions from their perspectives.
[/quote]



Your response indicates the gate is wide (at least in Christendom) not narrow which seems a little different from earlier thread remarks. To summarize, the key is having complete faith in Jesus as the Way (whether derived by knowledge/study, personal/emotional, supernatural revelation, intuitional revelation, etc). In other words, once the ticket is stamped (Jesus is the Way) it does not matter what vehicle the Believer chooses for their life long worship/practice. It could range from Eastern Orthodox to Roman Catholic to Anglican, Mennonite, Quaker or Tele-evanglelists (Jehovah Witness and Mormons would of course be excluded). The ticket is the only thing of importance. Choosing a church is not all that critical as long as Faith is not compromised. As an extreme(and absurd) example one could even imagine starting their own church where parishioners are required to come to church nude, smoke joints and practice wife swapping. Obviously, they know these practices are violating some of Gods Laws, but the Law is subordinate to the belief/faith and does not matter in the end. All that matters is the ticket which absolves of all sins. I have acquaintances and friends who tell me just that…”Its does not matter what my behavior is because I will be forgiven”. One of these acquaintances (from long ago) even admitted to stealing (from the till) from time to time but tells me his actions will all be forgiven. He is very devout. These are very comforting guarantees and enables one to move through life guilt free without obsessing about morality. What freedom!

Thanks for your responses. I will crawl back under my rock for awhile.

[Mountaineer]

Stillwaters, I just realized that I had left the "s" off your name in my responses. Sorry!

Don't stay under the rock too long before you come back, it was a joy and interesting to converse with you.

I have a few questions based on your opening post in this thread about dualities, time, space, etc. if you would care to continue the conversation. Your comments intrigued me.

Christians say God creates ex nihilo (from nothing) by his performative Word (God speaks, things happen). I'm not quite sure if non-Believers have any cohesive understanding of "'from whence the universe(s) comes". At any rate, what are your thoughts about: When did space begin? When did time begin? What existed before "nothing", or did "something" always exist? If so, where did "something" come from? If you believe there is a God, does God exist outside or inside our known dimensions (height, length, width, time, etc.; I've read there may be as many as 10 or more)?

Blessings and best wishes.

[jacksonM]

Stillwaters, I just realized that I had left the "s" off your name in my responses. Sorry!

Don't stay under the rock too long before you come back, it was a joy and interesting to converse with you.

I have a few questions based on your opening post in this thread about dualities, time, space, etc. if you would care to continue the conversation. Your comments intrigued me.

Christians say God creates ex nihilo (from nothing) by his performative Word (God speaks, things happen). I'm not quite sure if non-Believers have any cohesive understanding of "'from whence the universe(s) comes". At any rate, what are your thoughts about: When did space begin? When did time begin? What existed before "nothing", or did "something" always exist? If so, where did "something" come from? If you believe there is a God, does God exist outside or inside our known dimensions (height, length, width, time, etc.; I've read there may be as many as 10 or more)?

Blessings and best wishes.

I know these were meant for Stillwaters (interesting Biblical name he has chosen for himself, don't you think? - Psalm 23)

But I'll answer any way.

At this point in my journey through the cosmos I can only see it as the height of arrogance to claim you know the answers to the questions you are posing.

Also I think it is kind of rich that you would ask for these answers when you own answer to puzzling questions is "scripture doesn't tell us".

[Stillwaters]

Stillwaters, I just realized that I had left the "s" off your name in my responses. Sorry!

Don't stay under the rock too long before you come back, it was a joy and interesting to converse with you.

I have a few questions based on your opening post in this thread about dualities, time, space, etc. if you would care to continue the conversation. Your comments intrigued me.

Christians say God creates ex nihilo (from nothing) by his performative Word (God speaks, things happen). I'm not quite sure if non-Believers have any cohesive understanding of "'from whence the universe(s) comes". At any rate, what are your thoughts about: When did space begin? When did time begin? What existed before "nothing", or did "something" always exist? If so, where did "something" come from? If you believe there is a God, does God exist outside or inside our known dimensions (height, length, width, time, etc.; I've read there may be as many as 10 or more)?

Blessings and best wishes.

I know these were meant for Stillwaters (interesting Biblical name he has chosen for himself, don't you think? - Psalm 23)

But I'll answer any way.

At this point in my journey through the cosmos I can only see it as the height of arrogance to claim you know the answers to the questions you are posing.

Also I think it is kind of rich that you would ask for these answers when you own answer to puzzling questions is "scripture doesn't tell us".

jacksonM,

Not Psalms. But rather 'Still Waters Run Deep'. Not in a self referential way but as a Philosophical/Behavioral leaning.

Still internally debating whether to respond to Mountaineer’s question. Not something that two or three paragraphs could appropriately address.

I’ve noticed this thread has lost is oomph. Seems like most have moved on or lost interest. Was an epic multi-year thread though. I discovered it for the first time about two or three weeks ago (only stuck to the PP threads on and off prior to that). Believe it or not I read the entire thing from start to finish. Seems I may have arrived at its death knell. We could say the Mountaineer was the one ultra marathoner who stayed in the race the whole way.

[jacksonM]

Stillwaters, I just realized that I had left the "s" off your name in my responses. Sorry!

Don't stay under the rock too long before you come back, it was a joy and interesting to converse with you.

I have a few questions based on your opening post in this thread about dualities, time, space, etc. if you would care to continue the conversation. Your comments intrigued me.

Christians say God creates ex nihilo (from nothing) by his performative Word (God speaks, things happen). I'm not quite sure if non-Believers have any cohesive understanding of "'from whence the universe(s) comes". At any rate, what are your thoughts about: When did space begin? When did time begin? What existed before "nothing", or did "something" always exist? If so, where did "something" come from? If you believe there is a God, does God exist outside or inside our known dimensions (height, length, width, time, etc.; I've read there may be as many as 10 or more)?

Blessings and best wishes.

I know these were meant for Stillwaters (interesting Biblical name he has chosen for himself, don't you think? - Psalm 23)

But I'll answer any way.

At this point in my journey through the cosmos I can only see it as the height of arrogance to claim you know the answers to the questions you are posing.

Also I think it is kind of rich that you would ask for these answers when you own answer to puzzling questions is "scripture doesn't tell us".

jacksonM,

Not Psalms. But rather 'Still Waters Run Deep'. Not in a self referential way but as a Philosophical/Behavioral leaning.

Still internally debating whether to respond to Mountaineer’s question. Not something that two or three paragraphs could appropriately address.

I’ve noticed this thread has lost is oomph. Seems like most have moved on or lost interest. Was an epic multi-year thread though. I discovered it for the first time about two or three weeks ago (only stuck to the PP threads on and off prior to that). Believe it or not I read the entire thing from start to finish. Seems I may have arrived at its death knell. We could say the Mountaineer was the one ultra marathoner who stayed in the race the whole way.

Congratulations on reading the whole thread.

I think that my own arguments aren't really aimed at the religious folk so much as they are the last vestiges of religion remaining within myself. The truth is I was ten times the religious fanatic that Mountaineer is for a good portion of my life. Have you ever worked with someone who carried a Bible to work every day? That was me. I even started Bible study groups and led a lot of people to say the sinners prayer and all of them had a born again experience. Most are still Christians today. (For how to induce a religious experience see a couple of amazing Youtube videos by Darren Brown the magician. I thought it was a "gift" from God at the time but it was pure psychological manipulation.)

Looking back I can definitely see that there were some benefits to having been a devout Christian. I mean, how can it not help to constantly read a book encouraging you to do good and eschew evil? You just have to ignore all the bad stuff. Prayer probably had the same benefit as meditation and I even fasted a lot which is now being recognized as good for your health due to something called "autophagy".

All in all however, those years of my life are not something I'm proud of. I have to avoid thinking of what I could have done with all the time and energy if I had pointed it in a different direction.

Somebody up above made the comment that this thread should be taken out and shot and I'm starting to agree. Gonna try to resist the temptation to click on it but sometimes satan just overpowers me.

[Xan]

It sounds like burnout was a sad result of:
a) "decision theology" - the idea that it is up to you to decide to be a Christian, and
b) emphasis on personal experience - as you have indicated and shown, such things can be induced

Mountaineer and I (I think I'm speaking correctly here for Mountaineer, please correct me if not) do not believe in either of those things. At its core, Christianity is about the promises of God. It is a perversion to turn everything around and make it all about what's going on inside of me: do I really believe strongly enough? Was that experience real or not? Did I really make that decision sincerely?

Doesn't matter: I'm baptized, and God says that Baptism saves. God says that his body and blood are given to forgive my sins, and there they are for me to eat and drink (I don't know how, but that's what he says, so it must be true). God gave the keys to the Kingdom to the church whose pastors tell me "I forgive you all your sins".

Basically, the answer is to look outside yourself rather than inside for your assurance.

[jacksonM]

It sounds like burnout was a sad result of:
a) "decision theology" - the idea that it is up to you to decide to be a Christian, and
b) emphasis on personal experience - as you have indicated and shown, such things can be induced

Mountaineer and I (I think I'm speaking correctly here for Mountaineer, please correct me if not) do not believe in either of those things. At its core, Christianity is about the promises of God. It is a perversion to turn everything around and make it all about what's going on inside of me: do I really believe strongly enough? Was that experience real or not? Did I really make that decision sincerely?

Doesn't matter: I'm baptized, and God says that Baptism saves. God says that his body and blood are given to forgive my sins, and there they are for me to eat and drink (I don't know how, but that's what he says, so it must be true). God gave the keys to the Kingdom to the church whose pastors tell me "I forgive you all your sins".

Basically, the answer is to look outside yourself rather than inside for your assurance.

Yes, I was really big on the personal experience with Christ thing. I'm very sorry for making this mistake to the detriment of my eternal soul but I got the idea from the Bible, primarily my good friend Paul. If they don't emphasize that in the Lutheran church you should try reading him more.

When I "won" people to Christ I didn't use intellectual arguments like Mountaineer does. People wanted what I had and they came to me. What I had was joy and peace because I was a true believer and that's what they wanted. And after they were "born again" I always told them not to base their faith on their experience but on the Word of God, just like what you are saying.

Geesh. I said I wasn't going to click on this thread again and there I went and did it already.

[Mountaineer]

It sounds like burnout was a sad result of:
a) "decision theology" - the idea that it is up to you to decide to be a Christian, and
b) emphasis on personal experience - as you have indicated and shown, such things can be induced

Mountaineer and I (I think I'm speaking correctly here for Mountaineer, please correct me if not) do not believe in either of those things. At its core, Christianity is about the promises of God. It is a perversion to turn everything around and make it all about what's going on inside of me: do I really believe strongly enough? Was that experience real or not? Did I really make that decision sincerely?

Doesn't matter: I'm baptized, and God says that Baptism saves. God says that his body and blood are given to forgive my sins, and there they are for me to eat and drink (I don't know how, but that's what he says, so it must be true). God gave the keys to the Kingdom to the church whose pastors tell me "I forgive you all your sins".

Basically, the answer is to look outside yourself rather than inside for your assurance.

Yes, I was really big on the personal experience with Christ thing. I'm very sorry for making this mistake to the detriment of my eternal soul but I got the idea from the Bible, primarily my good friend Paul. If they don't emphasize that in the Lutheran church you should try reading him more.

When I "won" people to Christ I didn't use intellectual arguments like Mountaineer does. People wanted what I had and they came to me. What I had was joy and peace because I was a true believer and that's what they wanted. And after they were "born again" I always told them not to base their faith on their experience but on the Word of God, just like what you are saying.

Geesh. I said I wasn't going to click on this thread again and there I went and did it already.

It's OK, you are forgiven. God has not given up on you. And, yes Xan spoke correctly for me.