Trump as tragicomedy

[Kriegsspiel]

Is he mongering a war now?

Also, just saw this. I heard this ruckus on NPR and assumed they were young, fat, butch lesbians

But 3 out of 4 ain't bad.*

*assuming that's what the picture is of.

[moda0306]

Is he mongering a war now?

Also, just saw this. I heard this ruckus on NPR and assumed they were young, fat, butch lesbians

But 3 out of 4 ain't bad.*

*assuming that's what the picture is of.

Yemen he's helping the U.S. participate in a terrible genocide. Afghanistan. Some in Syria though it appears to have died down a bit for now. Continuing to expand the empire into Africa.

I'll also add the ridiculous retrenchment with Iran, though sanctions aren't outright war.

I'd recommend following "Scott Horton" on anti-war stuff if you want the best version of that argument. He's no lefty (claims to be an ancap but rarely focuses on economics).

[Kriegsspiel]

Yemen he's helping the U.S. participate in a terrible genocide. Afghanistan. Some in Syria though it appears to have died down a bit for now. Continuing to expand the empire into Africa.

I'll also add the ridiculous retrenchment with Iran, though sanctions aren't outright war.

I'd recommend following "Scott Horton" on anti-war stuff if you want the best version of that argument. He's no lefty (claims to be an ancap but rarely focuses on economics).

LOL... bro, I go to his site, and the first headline I see is "Bear Witness To American War Crimes". It's an article about a Saudi Arabian airstrike in Yemen. How is it an American war crime? Because the Saudis use American-made bombs . Give me a break. His other stuff might be ok, but didn't you think you should put his best foot forward? In fact, I didn't see anything that indicated Trump has started bombing Yemen.

A cursory search for Trump and Afghanistan turned up an Economist article saying that Trump authorized deploying 3,500 and relaxed restrictions on air support and on what we used to call Military Transition Teams, or MITTs/MIT teams, and a Brookings article that added that he's maintaining a presence there still. Although I don't think that's a good idea, it doesn't really sound like war mongering to me.

"Trump Syria" kinda tells me that he's kept up the bombing, but is only leaving 3,000 military personnel on the ground. One article said

He has ended support for anti-regime rebels. And he talks of recalling US forces assisting pro-western Kurds.

Trump’s objectives in Syria, in so far as he has a defined policy, are twofold. Firstly, to kill or catch remaining terrorists belonging to Islamic State. Secondly, to curb Iran’s influence by forcing the withdrawal of Revolutionary Guards units and Tehran-controlled Shia militias, as demanded by Israel.

Again, doesn't sound like war mongering. Drop links if you've already waded through this shit.

[stuper1]

Both the authoritarian war-monger clown in office and the perma-war surveilance staters trying to secretly oppose him (not to mention the lapdog establishment media) are enemies of both liberty and democracy (whichever one might prefer) and should be ridiculed into unemployed irrellevence.

Putting aside his bombastic, buffoonish, bloviating, which of Trump's actions do you describe as authoritarian?

[dualstow]

He’s kind of like an unsuccessful authoritarian, a mere wannabe.

The press is”the enemy of the people” but he can’t shut them down, not one outlet. He wants the NYT to name the mystery op-ed writer for the, uh, security of the country. Not going to happen.

Checks & balances at work, so far anyway.

[stuper1]

I guess I'm an authoritarian too, because I think that the press is our enemy as well.

In my humble opinion, he's not an authoritarian. He's just not afraid to call them as he sees them.

[dualstow]

No. I’m not referring to his opinion, but the pressure he applies (even though it’s not really working). His old PressSec, Spicer, did get those inauguration photos doctored, so that’s something. That’s evidence of authoritarian-lite.

Thanks to checks and balances, it may not get any further than that. He can only make his silly requests.

[stuper1]

From my vantage point, any time I see leftists accusing Trump of authoriatarianism, it looks like projection of their own shortcomings. The vast majority of shutting down free speech seems to come from the left when someone tries to express opinions that don't kowtow to the party line.

[boglerdude]

Where are his tax returns?

Did he really stiff his contractors?

Follow the money

[dualstow]

The left certainly have their problems. That’s why, for the first time in memory, I was unable to vote democrat in ‘16. However, this is the Trump as tragicomedy thread. /

[WiseOne]

Are we talking about the NY TImes op-ed piece now?

The content didn't shock me as much as I expected. Don't you all think that this is exactly what administration members have been doing for decades? Ronald Reagan, both of the George Bushes, and Bill Clinton come to mind as obvious examples where damage control from within was required in several instances. In the case of George Bush II, I'm not even sure that he did much more than cut switchgrass and occasionally act as Dick Cheney's spokesperson while in office.

It's actually good to know that there is a group of responsible people making sure that the President's missteps are nipped in the bud. No matter who the President is, missteps likely happen all the time. I'm pretty sure Trump is more extreme in that regard than most, but hardly unique.

[Xan]

So "Yes, Minister" is a documentary!

[dualstow]

So "Yes, Minister" is a documentary!

My wife’s favorite show. And back in the day, Thatcher‘s favorite.

[moda0306]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... trump.html

The president has long sold himself as a self-made billionaire, but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.

By age 3, Mr. Trump was earning $200,000 a year in today’s dollars from his father’s empire. He was a millionaire by age 8. By the time he was 17, his father had given him part ownership of a 52-unit apartment building. Soon after Mr. Trump graduated from college, he was receiving the equivalent of $1 million a year from his father. The money increased with the years, to more than $5 million annually in his 40s and 50s.

Absolutely insane how much Trump is NOT self-made in his fortunes... oh and appears to be downright a tax-fraud.

I'm sure the "rule-of-law" crowd is downright incensed at this...

[dualstow]

downright

[jacksonM]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... trump.html

The president has long sold himself as a self-made billionaire, but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.

By age 3, Mr. Trump was earning $200,000 a year in today’s dollars from his father’s empire. He was a millionaire by age 8. By the time he was 17, his father had given him part ownership of a 52-unit apartment building. Soon after Mr. Trump graduated from college, he was receiving the equivalent of $1 million a year from his father. The money increased with the years, to more than $5 million annually in his 40s and 50s.

Absolutely insane how much Trump is NOT self-made in his fortunes... oh and appears to be downright a tax-fraud.

I'm sure the "rule-of-law" crowd is downright incensed at this...

Can you be more specific about the tax fraud you are alleging?

[moda0306]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... trump.html

The president has long sold himself as a self-made billionaire, but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.

By age 3, Mr. Trump was earning $200,000 a year in today’s dollars from his father’s empire. He was a millionaire by age 8. By the time he was 17, his father had given him part ownership of a 52-unit apartment building. Soon after Mr. Trump graduated from college, he was receiving the equivalent of $1 million a year from his father. The money increased with the years, to more than $5 million annually in his 40s and 50s.

Absolutely insane how much Trump is NOT self-made in his fortunes... oh and appears to be downright a tax-fraud.

I'm sure the "rule-of-law" crowd is downright incensed at this...

Can you be more specific about the tax fraud you are alleging?

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

[jacksonM]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... trump.html





Absolutely insane how much Trump is NOT self-made in his fortunes... oh and appears to be downright a tax-fraud.

I'm sure the "rule-of-law" crowd is downright incensed at this...

Can you be more specific about the tax fraud you are alleging?

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

[moda0306]

Can you be more specific about the tax fraud you are alleging?

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

[jacksonM]

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

As I understand it, the statute of limitations on IRS audits is 3 years so basically we're right back where we were with Ms. Ford's accusations. Basically meaningless unless all you want to do is throw dirt.

I have no doubt that Trump and family took advantage of every tax loophole available at the time (as I have - how about you?).

And for the record I would rather have a champion on the right that could match the resume of Barack Obama. Despite his politics that I don't agree with I believe that he represents an amazing and commendable American success story which should go down in the history books alongside those of our greatest heroes.

But those of us more closely aligned with the right, whether we be libertarians or whatever, are stuck with Donald Trump. He's obviously a very flawed character but I think he's viewed as like king David in the Bible. Despite his flaws and even God's ultimate disapproval of his methods, he nevertheless won victories over God's enemies

[Xan]

If anything (and I think the whole analogy is a stretch), Trump is more like one of the pagan kings who in some way advanced God's plan, but were not themselves among God's people. Cyrus the Great, perhaps.

"People are so shocked when they find ... out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church," he said.

Sounds okay so far. He's claiming to be a Christian and I have no reason not to take him at his word.

Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

"I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

hmm.

"I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad."

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" asked Trump. "I work hard, I'm an honorable person."

This all sounds like he doesn't even know what a Christian is, let alone that he is one. Also, either the outlook or the cathechesis (or, likely, both) of whatever Presbyterian church we're talking about is absolutely terrible.

Contrast that with David, who said:

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. (He's like The Shadow that way.) Trying to do better doesn't do it. We need a new one from outside.

Of course, David had to have his violations of God's law thrown in his face to reach this point. What we would call good Law preaching, I suppose. That could still happen for Trump, but hasn't (yet), it would seem.


Sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics ... index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ess-2016-1
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trum ... eo-141856/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV


Edit: I should point out that I don't think it's necessary for POTUS to be a Christian.

[moda0306]

If anything (and I think the whole analogy is a stretch), Trump is more like one of the pagan kings who in some way advanced God's plan, but were not themselves among God's people. Cyrus the Great, perhaps.

"People are so shocked when they find ... out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church," he said.

Sounds okay so far. He's claiming to be a Christian and I have no reason not to take him at his word.

Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

"I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

hmm.

"I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad."

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" asked Trump. "I work hard, I'm an honorable person."

This all sounds like he doesn't even know what a Christian is, let alone that he is one. Also, either the outlook or the cathechesis (or, likely, both) of whatever Presbyterian church we're talking about is absolutely terrible.

Contrast that with David, who said:

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. (He's like The Shadow that way.) Trying to do better doesn't do it. We need a new one from outside.

Of course, David had to have his violations of God's law thrown in his face to reach this point. What we would call good Law preaching, I suppose. That could still happen for Trump, but hasn't (yet), it would seem.


Sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics ... index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ess-2016-1
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trum ... eo-141856/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV


Edit: I should point out that I don't think it's necessary for POTUS to be a Christian.

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

[moda0306]

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

As I understand it, the statute of limitations on IRS audits is 3 years so basically we're right back where we were with Ms. Ford's accusations. Basically meaningless unless all you want to do is throw dirt.

I have no doubt that Trump and family took advantage of every tax loophole available at the time (as I have - how about you?).

And for the record I would rather have a champion on the right that could match the resume of Barack Obama. Despite his politics that I don't agree with I believe that he represents an amazing and commendable American success story which should go down in the history books alongside those of our greatest heroes.

But those of us more closely aligned with the right, whether we be libertarians or whatever, are stuck with Donald Trump. He's obviously a very flawed character but I think he's viewed as like king David in the Bible. Despite his flaws and even God's ultimate disapproval of his methods, he nevertheless won victories over God's enemies

The statute of limitations on general tax return errors is 3-6 years depending on the size of the income misstatement.

The statute of limitations on civil tax fraud is unlimited.

https://www.goldinglawyers.com/tax-frau ... ts-beware/

Grossly misstating the nature of cash transfers are not "loopholes." It's literally lying about the nature of a transfer of wealth to avoid paying tax. This is fraud.

You asked if I've used loopholes... It depends how you define the term. But generally yes at various points I used what I'd consider to arguably be a small "loophole." I have not, however, committed tax fraud. Nor have I grossly exaggerated my private sector business bonafides to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to be elected to the most powerful position in the country, or anything like that on a smaller scale, beyond using a few polished terms on a resume.

As I implied, people who are supposedly concerned with "rule of law" principles should be incensed by this... unless, of course, they don't really care about "rule of law," and are more-so simply concerned with the political power of one group relative to another.

[Xan]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

Well I really have no idea what God's plans are, and I so I have no idea whether Trump is advancing them. Romans tells us that all authorities are put in place by God, and also that all things work together for the ultimate good of the elect, so to that extent, he's advancing God's plans, but in exactly the sort of way that Hillary would have.

Over the past several years I've gotten a lot less certain about exactly what the "right" way is to arrange society, largely thanks to you, Moda, and (begrudgingly) to Kshartle. I have my preferences (which are largely unchanged), but I no longer confuse them with the One and Only Way Things Should Be. As a result I take the political arena much less personally, which is only good for my health and well-being, and I try to find my identity in Christ (that is, whatever God says about me must certainly be true) and not in some political affiliation, which frees me to stop worrying about the things that will pass away, and instead to (try to) care about all my neighbors as people.

What I was trying to say earlier was not that Trump is a Cyrus, only that that's his ceiling: at BEST he's Cyrus and not David.

I think a lot of Christians support Trump for one or more of the following reasons:
* [sadly] They, like him, have a terribly broken view of what a Christian is.
* He promised to nominate to the Supreme Court people "like Scalia" which could ultimately overturn Roe v Wade. This one would put him in the Cyrus category for many. I don't think the recent addition to the Court is enough, but if he were to also replace Ginsburg and possibly even Breyer, things could get interesting. Moda, you should see that Collins speech where she talks about Kavanaugh's strong belief in stare decisis.
* He doesn't see straight white male Christians as the cause of all the world's problems. This could also be Cyrus-y.


EDIT: chopped out some other discussion for replying in the other thread.

[moda0306]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

Well I really have no idea what God's plans are, and I so I have no idea whether Trump is advancing them. Romans tells us that all authorities are put in place by God, and also that all things work together for the ultimate good of the elect, so to that extent, he's advancing God's plans, but in exactly the sort of way that Hillary would have.

Over the past several years I've gotten a lot less certain about exactly what the "right" way is to arrange society, largely thanks to you, Moda, and (begrudgingly) to Kshartle. I have my preferences (which are largely unchanged), but I no longer confuse them with the One and Only Way Things Should Be. As a result I take the political arena much less personally, which is only good for my health and well-being, and I try to find my identity in Christ (that is, whatever God says about me must certainly be true) and not in some political affiliation, which frees me to stop worrying about the things that will pass away, and instead to (try to) care about all my neighbors as people.

What I was trying to say earlier was not that Trump is a Cyrus, only that that's his ceiling: at BEST he's Cyrus and not David.

I think a lot of Christians support Trump for one or more of the following reasons:
* [sadly] They, like him, have a terribly broken view of what a Christian is.
* He promised to nominate to the Supreme Court people "like Scalia" which could ultimately overturn Roe v Wade. This one would put him in the Cyrus category for many. I don't think the recent addition to the Court is enough, but if he were to also replace Ginsburg and possibly even Breyer, things could get interesting. Moda, you should see that Collins speech where she talks about Kavanaugh's strong belief in stare decisis.
* He doesn't see straight white male Christians as the cause of all the world's problems. This could also be Cyrus-y.


EDIT: chopped out some other discussion for replying in the other thread.

Xan,

Thanks for the kind words... and yeah I think "the year of the Shart" was a good struggle looking back, as it really forced us to dive into truth claims around morality in ways that we just wouldn't have been able to without someone dragging us into it.

I'll have to answer those questions at a later time. Lots to get into there.

I know that many times I engage in some very strong language that can definitely sound "leftist" in nature, but I use it when I think it's appropriate and could back it up with facts. I don't use it when I think it's incorrect, poorly-thought-out, irrelevant, etc. Then people start extrapolating all sorts of things about my opinion.

Glad you remember the good ol' days of us and having to team up in the same trench.