Kids: Then and Now

[pugchief]

Some of Fred's recent columns have left me wondering if he'd finally lost it, but then he comes out with one that is just so insightful.

https://fredoneverything.org/kids-then-and-now/

[moda0306]

Some of Fred's recent columns have left me wondering if he'd finally lost it, but then he comes out with one that is just so insightful.

https://fredoneverything.org/kids-then-and-now/

There are some really good gems in there. But like all of Fred's stuff, it's loaded with garbage.

I wish we could split the wheat from the chaff with some of these folks.

[sophie]

Nice one pugchief. I think we've had threads on this topic. Fred emphasizes a few things at the expense of others, but I kinda agree with some of his points.

He hypothesizes that the ADHD epidemic is due to the over-regimented lives of kids (not just boys, Fred) who now have almost no opportunity for play and work experiences that engage the mind productively and provide a measure of independence. e.g. summer camp now vs. part time jobs and playing games in the street with neighbors then. And, perhaps, that the epidemic of medicating teenagers for behavior modification might have unforeseen consequences. Who'd a thought?? This is a real and legitimate concern.

[Mountaineer]

Some of Fred's recent columns have left me wondering if he'd finally lost it, but then he comes out with one that is just so insightful.

https://fredoneverything.org/kids-then-and-now/

There are some really good gems in there. But like all of Fred's stuff, it's loaded with garbage.

I wish we could split the wheat from the chaff with some of these folks.

Fred does not mention it, but I think another possible factor was when high schools changed from small to mega via consolidation. One or two bad apples in a small school does not form the critical mass that happens in a large school where there are enough bad apples to form a gang. Just a thought.

moda, what parts do you think are garbage? The article seemed to reflect my remembrance of my high school and college years pretty accurately - except my small high school (my graduating class had 52) was integrated but still had no racial issues - maybe the critical mass thing again.

[moda0306]

Some of Fred's recent columns have left me wondering if he'd finally lost it, but then he comes out with one that is just so insightful.

https://fredoneverything.org/kids-then-and-now/

There are some really good gems in there. But like all of Fred's stuff, it's loaded with garbage.

I wish we could split the wheat from the chaff with some of these folks.

Fred does not mention it, but I think another possible factor was when high schools changed from small to mega via consolidation. One or two bad apples in a small school does not form the critical mass that happens in a large school where there are enough bad apples to form a gang. Just a thought.

moda, what parts do you think are garbage? The article seemed to reflect my remembrance of my high school and college years pretty accurately - except my small high school (my graduating class had 52) was integrated but still had no racial issues - maybe the critical mass thing again.

The parts that wreak of male (and white, I suppose) victimology... using hyperbolic language and defeatism. Feminists didn't destroy men... air conditioning, cubicles, Doritos and X-Box's destroyed men. Along with neo-liberal trade policies that allow capital to play labor players against each other, IMO. The "good ol' days" stuff doesn't resonate with me. The late '60's and early '70's were fraught with terrorism and crime compared to today, and that's just domestic, not counting the steady slaughter of southeast Asians during that time-period.

I was perhaps a bit harsh... as I realize that's how many Americans feel.

[Tortoise]

The rise of the welfare state in concert with feminism essentially destroyed the American black family. Most of the other stuff flows from that.

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for responding moda. But, as I told my children repeatedly, the choice is yours. No one (other than God) can make you into something you do not choose to allow. I too do not like the victim motif but also realize the "system" (e.g. the welfare state Tortoise mentioned) is a powerful influence that can wear one down if one allows it. Full disclosure, I do like Doritos and air conditioning.

[moda0306]

Thanks for responding moda. But, as I told my children repeatedly, the choice is yours. No one (other than God) can make you into something you do not choose to allow. I too do not like the victim motif but also realize the "system" (e.g. the welfare state Tortoise mentioned) is a powerful influence that can wear one down if one allows it. Full disclosure, I do like Doritos and air conditioning.

The welfare state is an embarrassingly small part of "the system." We are social creatures and I definitely agree we are influenced by our environment. I guess maybe we disagree what most of those environmental drivers are.

[ochotona]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all. It smacks of victimhood. So ironic when you see the crowd of fine people currently ruling in the White House, a mansion partially built by slaves.

I've been in martial arts my whole life (44 years out of my almost 57), and I've noticed that kids today can't mount an attack worth sh**. They are disconnected from their physical bodies. They have spent too much time in video games, imagining themselves in first person shooter roles, or maybe virtual martial artist roles, but they literally can't tell left from right.

[Desert]

I kinda like the article, but that's probably because I'm an old fossil. Every generation thinks the younger generation is goin' to hell. My parents thought so when I was a kid, long years ago. Their parents thought the same. It's just a sign of aging.

Also, the article is obviously just an entertaining rant, devoid of any evidence. And that's my favorite kind of rant.

[Desert]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all. It smacks of victimhood. So ironic when you see the crowd of fine people currently ruling in the White House, a mansion partially built by slaves.

I've been in martial arts my whole life (44 years out of my almost 57), and I've noticed that kids today can't mount an attack worth sh**. They are disconnected from their physical bodies. They have spent too much time in video games, imagining themselves in first person shooter roles, or maybe virtual martial artist roles, but they literally can't tell left from right.

What brand of martial art?

[ochotona]

First Judo, then Aikido. Per avatar

[pugchief]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all.

The author is married to a Mexican woman, and lives with her in Mexico.

White male kids may not be put down, but being a white male adult these days can be a big negative, particularly if you are looking for a job in a big PC corporation or academia. Qualifications don't count for s**t anymore, all that matters is diversity.

[Kriegsspiel]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all. It smacks of victimhood.

I don't have anything to do with teenagers these days so I can't really speak from first-hand experience, but even a cursory search shows some evidence of some weird shit going on.

https://turtleboysports.com/capital-of- ... -the-flag/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/inside-a- ... le/2011402

I've been in martial arts my whole life (44 years out of my almost 57), and I've noticed that kids today can't mount an attack worth sh**. They are disconnected from their physical bodies. They have spent too much time in video games, imagining themselves in first person shooter roles, or maybe virtual martial artist roles, but they literally can't tell left from right.

A couple years ago I was catching up with a kid I went to HS with who was on the football team with me. He was helping out with a local HS team and was lamenting the fact that almost none of the players would go to the weight room. He said they didn't want to get big because they thought it would make them look weird. Strange times.

[ochotona]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all.

The author is married to a Mexican woman, and lives with her in Mexico.

White male kids may not be put down, but being a white male adult these days can be a big negative, particularly if you are looking for a job in a big PC corporation or academia. Qualifications don't count for s**t anymore, all that matters is diversity.

I hear lots of lip service around diversity. I still see lots of almost 100% white dude managers and executives in the energy industry. So from where I sit, I don't see it. This is admittedly a dinosaur industry in a deep red state. I don't think we have PC corporations here. They PC-wash themselves.

[moda0306]

The author of the article probably lives in an ultra-liberal enclave, because here in the heartland, I don't see white male kids being put down at all.

The author is married to a Mexican woman, and lives with her in Mexico.

White male kids may not be put down, but being a white male adult these days can be a big negative, particularly if you are looking for a job in a big PC corporation or academia. Qualifications don't count for s**t anymore, all that matters is diversity.

I hear lots of lip service around diversity. I still see lots of almost 100% white dude managers and executives in the energy industry. So from where I sit, I don't see it. This is admittedly a dinosaur industry in a deep red state. I don't think we have PC corporations here. They PC-wash themselves.

I work in accounting/tax in a mid-west but very blue state (Minnesota) and I live very close to Minneapolis so I'm not experiencing things from a conservative pocket. I see things much the same way. Even in corporate America, it's a sea of whiteness. But corporate America

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

One thing I'll never forget was grilling with a guy who worked at a closely-held (not globo-corporate but a damn big operation (200 employees perhaps?)) business operating about 25 minutes outside of the metro area of Minneapolis saying that they would never hire a black guy. He didn't say it either approvingly or disapprovingly, but just a matter of fact. I totally get it from a social-sphere and human standpoint, but damn if it's annoying that we don't acknowledge it, once again, when we lie to brown people about what to expect from the private-sector.

[Xan]

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

I think you'll get a lot more traction out of this argument by taking race out of the equation. Assuming all your facts, white people who don't happen to know the right people are just as excluded as brown people. There are probably more white people on the outside looking in than there are black people. So why make it about race?

[ochotona]

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

I think you'll get a lot more traction out of this argument by taking race out of the equation. Assuming all your facts, white people who don't happen to know the right people are just as excluded as brown people. There are probably more white people on the outside looking in than there are black people. So why make it about race?

Thanks for correcting us. There is rampant discrimination by class, gender, age, and race. Corporate America is led by a cohort of men of Northern European and British ancestry, and it's an "up or out" system, if you don't have an executive position or ownership stake by your late 40s or 50 at most, you're sidelined... even other white guys. Get out of here, no retiree health, no Medicare for you.

I've been in corporations for 32 years, from Fortune rank #11 all the way down to start-ups, and I've always been taking orders from the same kinds of guys, the kind of person and ages stay static, just the clothing styles and hairstyles change over the decades, people who in many cases just failed their way upwards, who were good at "managing up" and brown-nosing, and I'm tired of it. Now they are younger than me. I just want my portfolio to get to a certain level, then check out.

Here's an anecdote about this "like promoting and protecting like"... I was advised to prepare my management presentations with a certain color palette at Amoco Corporation (now BP), because so many of the managers were color-blind. We used to joke that they they were all related. Well... I'm sure they were, distantly (color-blindness is prevalent in Northern Europe and the UK).

[ochotona]

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

I think you'll get a lot more traction out of this argument by taking race out of the equation. Assuming all your facts, white people who don't happen to know the right people are just as excluded as brown people. There are probably more white people on the outside looking in than there are black people. So why make it about race?

Thanks for correcting us. There is rampant discrimination by class, gender, age, and race. And by queerness. Corporate America is led by a cohort of men of Northern European and British ancestry, and it's an "up or out" system, if you don't have an executive position or ownership stake by your late 40s or 50 at most, you're sidelined... even other white guys. Get out of here, no retiree health, no Medicare for you.

I've been in corporations for 32 years, from Fortune rank #11 all the way down to start-ups, and I've always been taking orders from the same kinds of guys, the kind of person and ages stay static, just the clothing styles and hairstyles change over the decades, people who in many cases just failed their way upwards, who were good at "managing up" and brown-nosing, and I'm tired of it. Now they are younger than me. I just want my portfolio to get to a certain level, then check out.

Here's an anecdote about this "like promoting and protecting like"... I was advised to prepare my management presentations with a certain color palette at Amoco Corporation (now BP), because so many of the managers were color-blind. We used to joke that they they were all related. Well... I'm sure they were, distantly (color-blindness is prevalent in Northern Europe and the UK).

[Desert]

First Judo, then Aikido. Per avatar

Nice. Complementary arts, I think.

[Desert]

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

I think you'll get a lot more traction out of this argument by taking race out of the equation. Assuming all your facts, white people who don't happen to know the right people are just as excluded as brown people. There are probably more white people on the outside looking in than there are black people. So why make it about race?

I agree. Race is a component, but maybe not more so than say, country club experience, or monogrammed cuffs. The higher-ups tend to look for and promote the people they feel comfortable with. I do the same. So I look for crazy people from a tough background. They make the best employees, I don't give a shit what they look like.

[Mr Vacuum]

I've been in martial arts my whole life (44 years out of my almost 57), and I've noticed that kids today can't mount an attack worth sh**. They are disconnected from their physical bodies. They have spent too much time in video games, imagining themselves in first person shooter roles, or maybe virtual martial artist roles, but they literally can't tell left from right.

That’s quite an anecdote. I am curious, do these kids have any sports background, or are you seeing this lack of coordination in kids across the board in terms of pre-martial arts experiences? Not a kid, exactly, played a ton of sports growing up, but certainly pretty inactive now, and I will remind myself never to challenge you to a fight.(I guess I’ll never get hired by Desert either )

Also, which martial art is best for joints and aging?

[moda0306]

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

I think you'll get a lot more traction out of this argument by taking race out of the equation. Assuming all your facts, white people who don't happen to know the right people are just as excluded as brown people. There are probably more white people on the outside looking in than there are black people. So why make it about race?

Well a couple things...

First off, the only reason we are talking about race is because Fred lamented about it and others here expanded on his claim that corporate America is heavily driven by "diversity," that feminism destroyed men and that white guys couldn't get a fair shake.

I was pointing out what an obvious farce that was. I'm happy to leave race out of it if white men I'm conversating with don't resort to playing victim to other racial groups.

Further, my example of exclusionary hiring was specifically about race, not merit. The guy specifically said that they'd never hire a black guy.

Not a liberal. Not a "lazy, entitled agitator." A "black guy."

This was 30 minutes outside of a very blue metro area inside a consistently blue state.

[Desert]

I've been in martial arts my whole life (44 years out of my almost 57), and I've noticed that kids today can't mount an attack worth sh**. They are disconnected from their physical bodies. They have spent too much time in video games, imagining themselves in first person shooter roles, or maybe virtual martial artist roles, but they literally can't tell left from right.

That’s quite an anecdote. I am curious, do these kids have any sports background, or are you seeing this lack of coordination in kids across the board in terms of pre-martial arts experiences? Not a kid, exactly, played a ton of sports growing up, but certainly pretty inactive now, and I will remind myself never to challenge you to a fight.(I guess I’ll never get hired by Desert either )

Also, which martial art is best for joints and aging?

Fair enough. But remember, it's never too late to develop a tough background. If one feels like they've simply followed a defined path, then yes, that person is probably not worth hiring. Take the cuff links and monograms down the street to the country club. For what it's worth, I do not like traditional sports either, and I'm probably not going to challenge ochotona to a cage match any time soon.

[Kriegsspiel]

The author is married to a Mexican woman, and lives with her in Mexico.

White male kids may not be put down, but being a white male adult these days can be a big negative, particularly if you are looking for a job in a big PC corporation or academia. Qualifications don't count for s**t anymore, all that matters is diversity.

I hear lots of lip service around diversity. I still see lots of almost 100% white dude managers and executives in the energy industry. So from where I sit, I don't see it. This is admittedly a dinosaur industry in a deep red state. I don't think we have PC corporations here. They PC-wash themselves.

I work in accounting/tax in a mid-west but very blue state (Minnesota) and I live very close to Minneapolis so I'm not experiencing things from a conservative pocket. I see things much the same way. Even in corporate America, it's a sea of whiteness. But corporate America

People work with who they trust, and people trust people like them. Further, the "its not what you know but who you know" still applies greatly, which is organic and ok in some ways but has to be acknowledged IMO when you're deciding how much to lecture brown people about how they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to become "successful."

One thing I'll never forget was grilling with a guy who worked at a closely-held (not globo-corporate but a damn big operation (200 employees perhaps?)) business operating about 25 minutes outside of the metro area of Minneapolis saying that they would never hire a black guy. He didn't say it either approvingly or disapprovingly, but just a matter of fact. I totally get it from a social-sphere and human standpoint, but damn if it's annoying that we don't acknowledge it, once again, when we lie to brown people about what to expect from the private-sector.

http://fortune.com/2018/03/02/google-ex ... diversity/
"The Alphabet unit had “irrefutable policies, memorialized in writing and consistently implemented in practice, of systematically discriminating in favor job applicants who are Hispanic, African American, or female, and against Caucasian and Asian men,” according to the complaint filed in state court in Redwood City, California."

Never fear, I presume the NLRB is already working up this guy's comments as a hate crime, possibly a sexual assault.