Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

Well, truth be known, me too. I am just trying to get into extreme hyperbole in an attempt to fit into the discussion on some other threads. Ixnay on AA.

farjean, remember, Jesus didn't turn water into coffee.

According to the religion I grew up in (Quakers), it was only grape juice.

I'll take that into consideration and be sure to remember ........ the chemistry of grape juice sugars and their probable fate, desirable fermentation conditions, and what happens in a warm/hot climate with no refrigeration.

[farjean2]

farjean, remember, Jesus didn't turn water into coffee.

According to the religion I grew up in (Quakers), it was only grape juice.

I'll take that into consideration and be sure to remember ........ the chemistry of grape juice sugars and their probable fate, desirable fermentation conditions, and what happens in a warm/hot climate with no refrigeration.

I was really tickled in the Ken Burns documentary on prohibition when he talked about how they sold kits in stores for making grape juice which included instructions for the exact steps to avoid to keep it from fermenting into wine.

I signed a pledge to never touch a drop of alcohol when I was around 9 or 10 years old. It was in elementary school and after some material was presented about the evils of alcohol they passed out those cards for everybody to sign. Funny thing was I was the one who brought those materials to school and my grandmother was the one behind it. This was in a public school. Hard to imagine something like that today.

[Mountaineer]

According to the religion I grew up in (Quakers), it was only grape juice.

I'll take that into consideration and be sure to remember ........ the chemistry of grape juice sugars and their probable fate, desirable fermentation conditions, and what happens in a warm/hot climate with no refrigeration.

I was really tickled in the Ken Burns documentary on prohibition when he talked about how they sold kits in stores for making grape juice which included instructions for the exact steps to avoid to keep it from fermenting into wine.

I signed a pledge to never touch a drop of alcohol when I was around 9 or 10 years old. It was in elementary school and after some material was presented about the evils of alcohol they passed out those cards for everybody to sign. Funny thing was I was the one who brought those materials to school and my grandmother was the one behind it. This was in a public school. Hard to imagine something like that today.

Yes, I grew up Methodist which did not require signing pledges, but might as well have. The only Methodist drinkers I knew about were in the closet and were publicly gossiped about (clear breaking of the 8th as Lutherans count them, but no one seemed to notice - the hypocrisy was what caused me to leave the organized church for quite a while until I realized we were were all sinners, some just have different flavors of sin than others), i.e. in shameful terms (and not the closet from which one comes out of today - those were firmly way more than 6 feet under and only came out in the dark of night). Yes, times have indeed changed.

[farjean2]

I'll take that into consideration and be sure to remember ........ the chemistry of grape juice sugars and their probable fate, desirable fermentation conditions, and what happens in a warm/hot climate with no refrigeration.

I was really tickled in the Ken Burns documentary on prohibition when he talked about how they sold kits in stores for making grape juice which included instructions for the exact steps to avoid to keep it from fermenting into wine.

I signed a pledge to never touch a drop of alcohol when I was around 9 or 10 years old. It was in elementary school and after some material was presented about the evils of alcohol they passed out those cards for everybody to sign. Funny thing was I was the one who brought those materials to school and my grandmother was the one behind it. This was in a public school. Hard to imagine something like that today.

Yes, I grew up Methodist which did not require signing pledges, but might as well have. The only Methodist drinkers I knew about were in the closet and were publicly gossiped about (clear breaking of the 8th as Lutherans count them, but no one seemed to notice - the hypocrisy was what caused me to leave the organized church for quite a while until I realized we were were all sinners, some just have different flavors of sin than others), i.e. in shameful terms (and not the closet from which one comes out of today - those were firmly way more than 6 feet under and only came out in the dark of night). Yes, times have indeed changed.

I was half Methodist too in a strange kind of way. Neither of my parents were very religious - my Mom was a lapsed Catholic who was excommunicated for marrying my father who was supposedly a Methodist. At least that's what he said when asked his religion but they never went to church. It was my grandmother who lived next door who was a Quaker and that's where I got my religion. My mother didn't want me to grow up to be a heathen so she made me go to my grandmother's church. But my grandmother didn't even go to that church because my grandfather hated it and also preferred the Methodists.

Strange stuff.

On a related note....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Ag ... 21483.html

[Mountaineer]

I was really tickled in the Ken Burns documentary on prohibition when he talked about how they sold kits in stores for making grape juice which included instructions for the exact steps to avoid to keep it from fermenting into wine.

I signed a pledge to never touch a drop of alcohol when I was around 9 or 10 years old. It was in elementary school and after some material was presented about the evils of alcohol they passed out those cards for everybody to sign. Funny thing was I was the one who brought those materials to school and my grandmother was the one behind it. This was in a public school. Hard to imagine something like that today.

Yes, I grew up Methodist which did not require signing pledges, but might as well have. The only Methodist drinkers I knew about were in the closet and were publicly gossiped about (clear breaking of the 8th as Lutherans count them, but no one seemed to notice - the hypocrisy was what caused me to leave the organized church for quite a while until I realized we were were all sinners, some just have different flavors of sin than others), i.e. in shameful terms (and not the closet from which one comes out of today - those were firmly way more than 6 feet under and only came out in the dark of night). Yes, times have indeed changed.

I was half Methodist too in a strange kind of way. Neither of my parents were very religious - my Mom was a lapsed Catholic who was excommunicated for marrying my father who was supposedly a Methodist. At least that's what he said when asked his religion but they never went to church. It was my grandmother who lived next door who was a Quaker and that's where I got my religion. My mother didn't want me to grow up to be a heathen so she made me go to my grandmother's church. But my grandmother didn't even go to that church because my grandfather hated it and also preferred the Methodists.

Strange stuff.

On a related note....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Ag ... 21483.html

Good link re. Agnes. The temperance folks would say alcohol killed her, and they would be right. The drinkers would say it kept her alive, and they would be right. Reminds me of the joke from the cold war era about the Russian/American car race. The Russian news reported the Russian came in second and the American came in next to last. (The Russian and the American were in a two person race).

[farjean2]

I have a question for the orthodox believers who post to this thread (you know who you are).

It's really very simple.

The Bible says "God is love" so it must be true. Yet, according to orthodox Christian doctrine millions/billions will suffer the never ending torments of hell for all eternity because they rejected.... whatever they rejected.

So my question is, without giving me a link to your favorite apologist, can you explain this in your own words that will make sense to us?

[Mountaineer]

I have a question for the orthodox believers who post to this thread (you know who you are).

It's really very simple.

The Bible says "God is love" so it must be true. Yet, according to orthodox Christian doctrine millions/billions will suffer the never ending torments of hell for all eternity because they rejected.... whatever they rejected.

So my question is, without giving me a link to your favorite apologist, can you explain this in your own words that will make sense to us?

I will attempt to address your request.

First: God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Some will hear His call and others will not. Why some and not others hear that call is unanswerable, it is not discussed in Scripture. It is a mystery. Thus, it requires faith to accept, but faith is a gift from God. Why some are given the gift and not others is not addressed in Scripture. Thus, we are back to square one. The best answer I can give is from Romans 10 (ESV): 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” Bottom line, go hear the Word proclaimed, frequently, where it is proclaimed faithfully in accordance with Scripture.

Second: God is love and loves us so much He gives us the ability to not hear the Word proclaimed. Otherwise, we would be puppets. Bottom line, God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But, because of our God given ability to not accept His gift, some will listen to their own reason and reject what they cannot understand. Some only believe in what can be proven or seen; they do not believe in revealed knowledge and the promises of YHWH/Jesus as revealed in the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is on them, not God. Why? I do not know, it is not addressed in Scripture.

Third: God is love. The Apostles Creed summarizes what believers have confessed for centuries: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. In other words, Jesus entered the creation, lived, died, and was resurrected FOR YOU AND FOR ME! His love is beyond all understanding of how we mortals express love. If you confess Jesus is Lord and believe it within your heart, you are saved. That sounds like love to me.

[farjean2]

I have a question for the orthodox believers who post to this thread (you know who you are).

It's really very simple.

The Bible says "God is love" so it must be true. Yet, according to orthodox Christian doctrine millions/billions will suffer the never ending torments of hell for all eternity because they rejected.... whatever they rejected.

So my question is, without giving me a link to your favorite apologist, can you explain this in your own words that will make sense to us?

I will attempt to address your request.

First: God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Some will hear His call and others will not. Why some and not others hear that call is unanswerable, it is not discussed in Scripture. It is a mystery. Thus, it requires faith to accept, but faith is a gift from God. Why some are given the gift and not others is not addressed in Scripture. Thus, we are back to square one. The best answer I can give is from Romans 10 (ESV): 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” Bottom line, go hear the Word proclaimed, frequently, where it is proclaimed faithfully in accordance with Scripture.

Second: God is love and loves us so much He gives us the ability to not hear the Word proclaimed. Otherwise, we would be puppets. Bottom line, God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But, because of our God given ability to not accept His gift, some will listen to their own reason and reject what they cannot understand. Some only believe in what can be proven or seen; they do not believe in revealed knowledge and the promises of YHWH/Jesus as revealed in the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is on them, not God. Why? I do not know, it is not addressed in Scripture.

Third: God is love. The Apostles Creed summarizes what believers have confessed for centuries: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. In other words, Jesus entered the creation, lived, died, and was resurrected FOR YOU AND FOR ME! His love is beyond all understanding of how we mortals express love. If you confess Jesus is Lord and believe it within your heart, you are saved. That sounds like love to me.

When you say it is unanswerable because it is not discussed in scripture and must remain a mystery it sounds to me like you've suffered a full-scale religious frontal lobotomy. There are Scientologists down the street from where I live who suffer from the same condition, not to mention people who fly planes into buildings to please Allah. Did God give us a brain to think with the intention that we not actually use it to think and reason?

What kind of loving gift is it to allow human beings to make choices that would cause them to suffer torments for all eternity? How can you possibly call that love? Would you give your own kids a gift like that? I think not. If you saw one of your kids going to the stove and about to touch a hot stove burner I have no doubt that you would run there as fast as you could and stop him. You would call any father who didn't do that an asshole but when God does it not just for temporal pain but for all eternity, you call him "holy" and say that he is "love". How does that compute in your mind?

Sounds like your answer is that it doesn't have to. That part of my mind is defective and can't be trusted. Scripture says. We have to trust scripture, or at least what our church tells us that scripture says.

[Mountaineer]

I have a question for the orthodox believers who post to this thread (you know who you are).

It's really very simple.

The Bible says "God is love" so it must be true. Yet, according to orthodox Christian doctrine millions/billions will suffer the never ending torments of hell for all eternity because they rejected.... whatever they rejected.

So my question is, without giving me a link to your favorite apologist, can you explain this in your own words that will make sense to us?

I will attempt to address your request.

First: God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Some will hear His call and others will not. Why some and not others hear that call is unanswerable, it is not discussed in Scripture. It is a mystery. Thus, it requires faith to accept, but faith is a gift from God. Why some are given the gift and not others is not addressed in Scripture. Thus, we are back to square one. The best answer I can give is from Romans 10 (ESV): 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” Bottom line, go hear the Word proclaimed, frequently, where it is proclaimed faithfully in accordance with Scripture.

Second: God is love and loves us so much He gives us the ability to not hear the Word proclaimed. Otherwise, we would be puppets. Bottom line, God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But, because of our God given ability to not accept His gift, some will listen to their own reason and reject what they cannot understand. Some only believe in what can be proven or seen; they do not believe in revealed knowledge and the promises of YHWH/Jesus as revealed in the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is on them, not God. Why? I do not know, it is not addressed in Scripture.

Third: God is love. The Apostles Creed summarizes what believers have confessed for centuries: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. In other words, Jesus entered the creation, lived, died, and was resurrected FOR YOU AND FOR ME! His love is beyond all understanding of how we mortals express love. If you confess Jesus is Lord and believe it within your heart, you are saved. That sounds like love to me.

When you say it is unanswerable because it is not discussed in scripture and must remain a mystery it sounds to me like you've suffered a full-scale religious frontal lobotomy. There are Scientologists down the street from where I live who suffer from the same condition, not to mention people who fly planes into buildings to please Allah. Did God give us a brain to think with the intention that we not actually use it to think and reason?

What kind of loving gift is it to allow human beings to make choices that would cause them to suffer torments for all eternity? How can you possibly call that love? Would you give your own kids a gift like that? I think not. If you saw one of your kids going to the stove and about to touch a hot stove burner I have no doubt that you would run there as fast as you could and stop him. You would call any father who didn't do that an asshole but when God does it not just for temporal pain but for all eternity, you call him "holy" and say that he is "love". How does that compute in your mind?

Sounds like your answer is that it doesn't have to. That part of my mind is defective and can't be trusted. Scripture says. We have to trust scripture, or at least what our church tells us that scripture says.

farjean,

I mostly depend on my own reading of Scripture and less so on whatever anyone else tells me it means but I do read commentaries, go to Bible studies, discuss things with my Pastor, and pay attention to how those in the past have interpreted ... I use the "Scripture interpretes Scripture" method of interpretation with the clearer passages interpreting the less clear. I also try to rightly divide Law (what God tells us to do or what is necessary) and Gospel (what God did/does for us). I try to read/interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. I clearly see there is a God of Wrath as well as a God of mercy. I understand where you are coming from with your comments, I've been there too. My "former" upbringing was focused much more on the wrath side of God, my current is much more balanced on the God of wrath and the God of mercy. For whatever reason, I have come to believe in the Scriptures and know that God wants me, has mercy upon me, loves me, in spite of all my "issues" and doubts.

Thanks for your comments and if you have any additional questions, feel free to ask. I'll try my best to answer and give you my thoughts if you like.

[farjean2]

I will attempt to address your request.

First: God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Some will hear His call and others will not. Why some and not others hear that call is unanswerable, it is not discussed in Scripture. It is a mystery. Thus, it requires faith to accept, but faith is a gift from God. Why some are given the gift and not others is not addressed in Scripture. Thus, we are back to square one. The best answer I can give is from Romans 10 (ESV): 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” Bottom line, go hear the Word proclaimed, frequently, where it is proclaimed faithfully in accordance with Scripture.

Second: God is love and loves us so much He gives us the ability to not hear the Word proclaimed. Otherwise, we would be puppets. Bottom line, God wants everyone to be with Him for eternity. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. But, because of our God given ability to not accept His gift, some will listen to their own reason and reject what they cannot understand. Some only believe in what can be proven or seen; they do not believe in revealed knowledge and the promises of YHWH/Jesus as revealed in the Scriptures. Eternal separation from God is on them, not God. Why? I do not know, it is not addressed in Scripture.

Third: God is love. The Apostles Creed summarizes what believers have confessed for centuries: I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen. In other words, Jesus entered the creation, lived, died, and was resurrected FOR YOU AND FOR ME! His love is beyond all understanding of how we mortals express love. If you confess Jesus is Lord and believe it within your heart, you are saved. That sounds like love to me.

When you say it is unanswerable because it is not discussed in scripture and must remain a mystery it sounds to me like you've suffered a full-scale religious frontal lobotomy. There are Scientologists down the street from where I live who suffer from the same condition, not to mention people who fly planes into buildings to please Allah. Did God give us a brain to think with the intention that we not actually use it to think and reason?

What kind of loving gift is it to allow human beings to make choices that would cause them to suffer torments for all eternity? How can you possibly call that love? Would you give your own kids a gift like that? I think not. If you saw one of your kids going to the stove and about to touch a hot stove burner I have no doubt that you would run there as fast as you could and stop him. You would call any father who didn't do that an asshole but when God does it not just for temporal pain but for all eternity, you call him "holy" and say that he is "love". How does that compute in your mind?

Sounds like your answer is that it doesn't have to. That part of my mind is defective and can't be trusted. Scripture says. We have to trust scripture, or at least what our church tells us that scripture says.

farjean,

I mostly depend on my own reading of Scripture and less so on whatever anyone else tells me it means but I do read commentaries, go to Bible studies, discuss things with my Pastor, and pay attention to how those in the past have interpreted ... I use the "Scripture interpretes Scripture" method of interpretation with the clearer passages interpreting the less clear. I also try to rightly divide Law (what God tells us to do or what is necessary) and Gospel (what God did/does for us). I try to read/interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. I clearly see there is a God of Wrath as well as a God of mercy. I understand where you are coming from with your comments, I've been there too. My "former" upbringing was focused much more on the wrath side of God, my current is much more balanced on the God of wrath and the God of mercy. For whatever reason, I have come to believe in the Scriptures and know that God wants me, has mercy upon me, loves me, in spite of all my "issues" and doubts.

Thanks for your comments and if you have any additional questions, feel free to ask. I'll try my best to answer and give you my thoughts if you like.

I think if you are going to believe in a god, a god of wrath is much more evident in nature than a god of love. Forget the animals, when it comes to humans how can you look at pictures of starving children in Africa and see a god of love? You can retreat into "the scripture doesn't tell us so it's a mystery" but does that really work for you? The scripture says that God answers our prayers and provides for our needs but obviously he doesn't answer their prayers and provide for their needs.

And then when you get stuck with nothing left but the god of wrath the only reasonable relationship it seems to me to have with such a being is to wrath him right back. And then you have to decide if that's a rational way to live your life.

[Greg]

I have a question for the orthodox believers who post to this thread (you know who you are).

It's really very simple.

The Bible says "God is love" so it must be true. Yet, according to orthodox Christian doctrine millions/billions will suffer the never ending torments of hell for all eternity because they rejected.... whatever they rejected.

So my question is, without giving me a link to your favorite apologist, can you explain this in your own words that will make sense to us?

What kind of loving gift is it to allow human beings to make choices that would cause them to suffer torments for all eternity? How can you possibly call that love? Would you give your own kids a gift like that? I think not. If you saw one of your kids going to the stove and about to touch a hot stove burner I have no doubt that you would run there as fast as you could and stop him. You would call any father who didn't do that an asshole but when God does it not just for temporal pain but for all eternity, you call him "holy" and say that he is "love". How does that compute in your mind?

Sounds like your answer is that it doesn't have to. That part of my mind is defective and can't be trusted. Scripture says. We have to trust scripture, or at least what our church tells us that scripture says.

1.) God is both perfectly loving and perfectly just
2.) God can not have sin (evil, or absence of the good of God) in his presence
3.) Being perfectly just, God will judge others for sinning
4.) God loves us and provides a means for us to have our sin "paid" for through Jesus. The justice from God was executed on Jesus on the cross due to the love of God.
5.) To your point above, you can tell your child to not touch the stove and if they don't believe you and touch it, they burn themselves and ideally learn. Sometimes suffering can be a way to learn.
6.) regarding temporal versus eternal pain, I saw this article recently and liked it (even though I realize you said to not post links but the article is very short http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/wh ... m-in-hell/).

Boils down to Discipline looking forward to reform us and Punishment looking backwards for accepting the consequences of our choices:

"God is patient. He’s given each of us a lifetime to respond to His discipline and change our mind. It cannot be said that God failed to give us the opportunity to repent. When we are rebellious to the point of exhaustion, however, God has no choice but to deliver on His warnings."

[farjean2]

When we are rebellious to the point of exhaustion, however, God has no choice but to deliver on His warnings."

A child abuser could not have said it any better.

Makes me really feel sorry for God, having no choice but to send his children to hell to suffer torments for all eternity. Are there any exceptions allowed based on the IQ of the person involved or other extenuating circumstances? Humans sometimes show mercy in those situations. How about God?

[Greg]

Thanks for your response farjean2, here's some additional comments regarding your thoughts.

When we are rebellious to the point of exhaustion, however, God has no choice but to deliver on His warnings."

A child abuser could not have said it any better.

Quote from the previous link: "Punishment need not be vindictive or vengeful. It is simply the sad but deserving consequence awaiting those who are unwilling to be reformed in this life."

Child abuse is completely separate from this concept. To be closer analogy (in my opinion) based on this quote would be is it ethical to try a child as an adult if they killed someone due to vengeance, etc.? Is it okay to punish a child and send them to a juvenile detention center if their actions are consistently harming others?

Makes me really feel sorry for God, having no choice but to send his children to hell to suffer torments for all eternity.

From a free-will aspect, your statement seems incorrect to me. We choose to withdraw from God and we suffer the consequences of not choosing to be with him when we die. At the end of life, we either say to God "your will be done" and we follow him, or he says "your will be done" to us and we go on our way and he honors that choice.

Are there any exceptions allowed based on the IQ of the person involved or other extenuating circumstances? Humans sometimes show mercy in those situations. How about God?

We do not know regarding these questions. My thoughts would be that if someone doesn't have the intellectual capability to understand their sinfulness that God wouldn't hold them accountable for their actions. He would provide mercy to those who didn't have a choice to choose him or not. This would be still open to thoughts.

Lastly, I think suffering and pain is one of those things that seems to physically repulse people about God; that a loving God would permit suffering. I would invite you and anyone else interested to watch this ~8min long but very high-production-value video regarding the Suffering and Evil: The Probability Version, produced by theologian and philosopher William Lane Craig. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxj8ag8Ntd4

[Greg]

5.) To your point above, you can tell your child to not touch the stove and if they don't believe you and touch it, they burn themselves and ideally learn. Sometimes suffering can be a way to learn.

Boils down to Discipline looking forward to reform us and Punishment looking backwards for accepting the consequences of our choices:

a burnt hand is temporary not eternal, a burnt hand teaches, torment without escape can only teach one to truly hate the tormentor and nothing else.. not sure how that could ever jibe with a forgiving or loving god...

Thanks for your thoughts interactive processing, I've thought about this stuff as well and found some articles regarding it online.

I look at it from a probability standpoint. If you spend your whole life (say 100 years), and every day you touch the stove and it burns you but you go back to it every day for that 100 years, what is the probability that if you lived 200 years that you'd learn your lesson and that you'd stop touching the stove? What about 1000 years? etc.

a hundred years is not even a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity neither is a thousand or even a million years.. the burn in hell vengeful punishing version of god is just not in keeping with a forgiving or loving god. compared to eternity why not give a million years or a hundred million for a poor soul to find him? the whole thing smacks of a middle ages medieval tack-on to Christianity that should have been dropped with the dark-ages that spawned it..

[farjean2]

I look at it from a probability standpoint. If you spend your whole life (say 100 years), and every day you touch the stove and it burns you but you go back to it every day for that 100 years, what is the probability that if you lived 200 years that you'd learn your lesson and that you'd stop touching the stove? What about 1000 years? etc.

If my kid couldn't stop touching the stove I'd get rid of the stove.

[Greg]

I look at it from a probability standpoint. If you spend your whole life (say 100 years), and every day you touch the stove and it burns you but you go back to it every day for that 100 years, what is the probability that if you lived 200 years that you'd learn your lesson and that you'd stop touching the stove? What about 1000 years? etc.

If my kid couldn't stop touching the stove I'd get rid of the stove.

Wouldn't that then be removing their ability to choose incorrectly? (God taking away your freewill to choose). Without the ability to do evil, doesn't this then minimize the impact of our choice to do something good since we can't choose anything different?

[farjean2]

I look at it from a probability standpoint. If you spend your whole life (say 100 years), and every day you touch the stove and it burns you but you go back to it every day for that 100 years, what is the probability that if you lived 200 years that you'd learn your lesson and that you'd stop touching the stove? What about 1000 years? etc.

If my kid couldn't stop touching the stove I'd get rid of the stove.

Wouldn't that then be removing their ability to choose incorrectly? (God taking away your freewill to choose). Without the ability to do evil, doesn't this then minimize the impact of our choice to do something good since we can't choose anything different?

Yes, I would take away my kid's freewill to choose to put his hand on a hot stove burner if he couldn't stop doing it.

The Bible says that that those who are in Christ were chosen and predestined for it before the world was even created (excuse my paraphrase but I think it's pretty accurate from memory). Also, there are "vessels of wrath" prepared for destruction.

So where does freewill come into play here any way? To me that's just the usual Christian apologetic trying to rationalize away a problem using an argument that the Bible doesn't even support.

[Greg]

Yes, I would take away my kid's freewill to choose to put his hand on a hot stove burner if he couldn't stop doing it.

The Bible says that that those who are in Christ were chosen and predestined for it before the world was even created (excuse my paraphrase but I think it's pretty accurate from memory). Also, there are "vessels of wrath" prepared for destruction.

So where does freewill come into play here any way? To me that's just the usual Christian apologetic trying to rationalize away a problem using an argument that the Bible doesn't even support.

I'd say for a moment to not think about everyone else in this case and to think about yourself instead:

1.) Do you believe you control your own actions?
2.) Do you believe you should face consequences for your actions (both positive and negative)?
3.) Do you believe you have the choice to believe in and follow God or not?

[Xan]

On this question I (and I believe I speak for Mountaineer as well) agree with farjean. We start out dead in our sins. We cannot free ourselves from our sinful condition. I can no more choose to believe in Christ and receive his salvation than a corpse can choose to start breathing again.

As Luther put in it the Small Catechism:

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

And as Jesus said in John 6:44:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I understand that the Greek word translated "draw" there is in the sense of "dragging, kicking and screaming".

The Lutheran position typically is that the doctrine of predestination is one of comfort, and not a cudgel. Unlike the Calvinists who say (quite logically) that if one is not predestined to life then one is predestined to death (so-called double predestination), Lutherans believe that nobody is predestined to perdition (so-called single predestination). This is a paradox which has not been explained.

[farjean2]

Yes, I would take away my kid's freewill to choose to put his hand on a hot stove burner if he couldn't stop doing it.

The Bible says that that those who are in Christ were chosen and predestined for it before the world was even created (excuse my paraphrase but I think it's pretty accurate from memory). Also, there are "vessels of wrath" prepared for destruction.

So where does freewill come into play here any way? To me that's just the usual Christian apologetic trying to rationalize away a problem using an argument that the Bible doesn't even support.

I'd say for a moment to not think about everyone else in this case and to think about yourself instead:

1.) Do you believe you control your own actions?

That's an interesting question. If I choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream is that because I have free will or is it because of chemical processes in my brain I have no control over? I read a book by Sam Harris on the subject. He's a neuro-scientist and he seems to be of the opinion that freewill is an illusion. Some passages in the Bible would seem to support what he is saying though others do not. What do you think? Were Adam and Eve pre-programmed to eat the forbidden fruit or not? (and why did God act so surprised when they did. I thought he was omniscient).

2.) Do you believe you should face consequences for your actions (both positive and negative)?

Depends on the actions. I don't think I should have to face any consequences for refusing to believe religious claims for which no good evidence is presented. God could present good evidence if he wanted to but he "chooses" to leave it open for lots of doubt. That sounds completely unjust to me.

3.) Do you believe you have the choice to believe in and follow God or not?

Well, see the above but at this point in my life I "feel" as though I have been programmed not to believe in any god. Though I used to.

[Mountaineer]

Yes, I would take away my kid's freewill to choose to put his hand on a hot stove burner if he couldn't stop doing it.

The Bible says that that those who are in Christ were chosen and predestined for it before the world was even created (excuse my paraphrase but I think it's pretty accurate from memory). Also, there are "vessels of wrath" prepared for destruction.

So where does freewill come into play here any way? To me that's just the usual Christian apologetic trying to rationalize away a problem using an argument that the Bible doesn't even support.

I'd say for a moment to not think about everyone else in this case and to think about yourself instead:

1.) Do you believe you control your own actions?

That's an interesting question. If I choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream is that because I have free will or is it because of chemical processes in my brain I have no control over? I read a book by Sam Harris on the subject. He's a neuro-scientist and he seems to be of the opinion that freewill is an illusion. Some passages in the Bible would seem to support what he is saying though others do not. What do you think? Were Adam and Eve pre-programmed to eat the forbidden fruit or not? (and why did God act so surprised when they did. I thought he was omniscient).

2.) Do you believe you should face consequences for your actions (both positive and negative)?

Depends on the actions. I don't think I should have to face any consequences for refusing to believe religious claims for which no good evidence is presented. God could present good evidence if he wanted to but he "chooses" to leave it open for lots of doubt. That sounds completely unjust to me.

3.) Do you believe you have the choice to believe in and follow God or not?

Well, see the above but at this point in my life I "feel" as though I have been programmed not to believe in any god. Though I used to.

farjean2,
I suggest that you might see things differently if you did not depend on your feelings (which are internal, subject to change at a moment's notice, and from a Christian point of view are easily manipulated by Satan to rebel against and hate God) and think more about depending on an external, unchanging, desiring all to be saved source of truth which has never lied to us (i.e. the One who keeps all His promises). I know that some denominations focus heavily on feelings, but my personal opinion is that enables many to fall away when they no longer "feel" a presence or "feel" excitement.

Secondly, I agree with much of what Greg says with the exception being I do not believe we have freewill on heavenly things; I do believe we have freewill on earthly things (e.g. what to eat for breakfast). I agree with Xan re. his predestination comments. We may see some of the details differently, but in the big picture it appears that Greg, Xan and I all agree on the essentials of what it means to be a Christian. I think much of the difference in details comes from an incomplete understanding of rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel and with the method used to interpret Scripture. Almost five hundred years ago Luther and Calvin agreed on most of the details but not all; they were both Christians. That in part is why I urge people who are having doubts, or have discarded religion to go to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully in accordance with all Scripture (no cherry picking or ignoring the parts that make us cringe allowed). I think hearing the Word frequently and in context helps doubters gain a more thorough understanding of the reality of the truth, because Jesus is really present in the Word and Sacrament and may use that process to help the doubter - - - if there is a willingness and open mind to really hear, question, and learn. Then again, I may be wrong. Once again, in my opinion, it all boils down to who is going to be God in your life (i.e. what gives you meaning, identity, security, purpose)? My personal biggest roadblock is thinking my thinking is supreme.

[farjean2]

I'd say for a moment to not think about everyone else in this case and to think about yourself instead:

1.) Do you believe you control your own actions?

That's an interesting question. If I choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream is that because I have free will or is it because of chemical processes in my brain I have no control over? I read a book by Sam Harris on the subject. He's a neuro-scientist and he seems to be of the opinion that freewill is an illusion. Some passages in the Bible would seem to support what he is saying though others do not. What do you think? Were Adam and Eve pre-programmed to eat the forbidden fruit or not? (and why did God act so surprised when they did. I thought he was omniscient).

2.) Do you believe you should face consequences for your actions (both positive and negative)?

Depends on the actions. I don't think I should have to face any consequences for refusing to believe religious claims for which no good evidence is presented. God could present good evidence if he wanted to but he "chooses" to leave it open for lots of doubt. That sounds completely unjust to me.

3.) Do you believe you have the choice to believe in and follow God or not?

Well, see the above but at this point in my life I "feel" as though I have been programmed not to believe in any god. Though I used to.

farjean2,
I suggest that you might see things differently if you did not depend on your feelings (which are internal, subject to change at a moment's notice, and from a Christian point of view are easily manipulated by Satan to rebel against and hate God) and think more about depending on an external, unchanging, desiring all to be saved source of truth which has never lied to us (i.e. the One who keeps all His promises). I know that some denominations focus heavily on feelings, but my personal opinion is that enables many to fall away when they no longer "feel" a presence or "feel" excitement.

Secondly, I agree with much of what Greg says with the exception being I do not believe we have freewill on heavenly things; I do believe we have freewill on earthly things (e.g. what to eat for breakfast). I agree with Xan re. his predestination comments. We may see some of the details differently, but in the big picture it appears that Greg, Xan and I all agree on the essentials of what it means to be a Christian. I think much of the difference in details comes from an incomplete understanding of rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel and with the method used to interpret Scripture. Almost five hundred years ago Luther and Calvin agreed on most of the details but not all; they were both Christians. That in part is why I urge people who are having doubts, or have discarded religion to go to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully in accordance with all Scripture (no cherry picking or ignoring the parts that make us cringe allowed). I think hearing the Word frequently and in context helps doubters gain a more thorough understanding of the reality of the truth, because Jesus is really present in the Word and Sacrament and may use that process to help the doubter - - - if there is a willingness and open mind to really hear, question, and learn. Then again, I may be wrong. Once again, in my opinion, it all boils down to who is going to be God in your life (i.e. what gives you meaning, identity, security, purpose)? My personal biggest roadblock is thinking my thinking is supreme.

I appreciate the advice but I've traveled too far down the evil path of thinking for myself by now to ever be able to turn back to religion. Maybe when I get old and senile there will be hope for me. Well, when I get senile any way. I'm already old.

[Mountaineer]

I'd say for a moment to not think about everyone else in this case and to think about yourself instead:

1.) Do you believe you control your own actions?

That's an interesting question. If I choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream is that because I have free will or is it because of chemical processes in my brain I have no control over? I read a book by Sam Harris on the subject. He's a neuro-scientist and he seems to be of the opinion that freewill is an illusion. Some passages in the Bible would seem to support what he is saying though others do not. What do you think? Were Adam and Eve pre-programmed to eat the forbidden fruit or not? (and why did God act so surprised when they did. I thought he was omniscient).

2.) Do you believe you should face consequences for your actions (both positive and negative)?

Depends on the actions. I don't think I should have to face any consequences for refusing to believe religious claims for which no good evidence is presented. God could present good evidence if he wanted to but he "chooses" to leave it open for lots of doubt. That sounds completely unjust to me.

3.) Do you believe you have the choice to believe in and follow God or not?

Well, see the above but at this point in my life I "feel" as though I have been programmed not to believe in any god. Though I used to.

farjean2,
I suggest that you might see things differently if you did not depend on your feelings (which are internal, subject to change at a moment's notice, and from a Christian point of view are easily manipulated by Satan to rebel against and hate God) and think more about depending on an external, unchanging, desiring all to be saved source of truth which has never lied to us (i.e. the One who keeps all His promises). I know that some denominations focus heavily on feelings, but my personal opinion is that enables many to fall away when they no longer "feel" a presence or "feel" excitement.

Secondly, I agree with much of what Greg says with the exception being I do not believe we have freewill on heavenly things; I do believe we have freewill on earthly things (e.g. what to eat for breakfast). I agree with Xan re. his predestination comments. We may see some of the details differently, but in the big picture it appears that Greg, Xan and I all agree on the essentials of what it means to be a Christian. I think much of the difference in details comes from an incomplete understanding of rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel and with the method used to interpret Scripture. Almost five hundred years ago Luther and Calvin agreed on most of the details but not all; they were both Christians. That in part is why I urge people who are having doubts, or have discarded religion to go to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully in accordance with all Scripture (no cherry picking or ignoring the parts that make us cringe allowed). I think hearing the Word frequently and in context helps doubters gain a more thorough understanding of the reality of the truth, because Jesus is really present in the Word and Sacrament and may use that process to help the doubter - - - if there is a willingness and open mind to really hear, question, and learn. Then again, I may be wrong. Once again, in my opinion, it all boils down to who is going to be God in your life (i.e. what gives you meaning, identity, security, purpose)? My personal biggest roadblock is thinking my thinking is supreme.

I appreciate the advice but I've traveled too far down the evil path of thinking for myself by now to ever be able to turn back to religion. Maybe when I get old and senile there will be hope for me. Well, when I get senile any way. I'm already old.

Hey farjean2, my very best wishes for your future, regardless of whether you turn back to religion or not. I'm with you on the "old", but we are never too old to share a beer, coffee, barbecue, and stories .... maybe one of these days we will cross paths.

[farjean2]

farjean2,
I suggest that you might see things differently if you did not depend on your feelings (which are internal, subject to change at a moment's notice, and from a Christian point of view are easily manipulated by Satan to rebel against and hate God) and think more about depending on an external, unchanging, desiring all to be saved source of truth which has never lied to us (i.e. the One who keeps all His promises). I know that some denominations focus heavily on feelings, but my personal opinion is that enables many to fall away when they no longer "feel" a presence or "feel" excitement.

Secondly, I agree with much of what Greg says with the exception being I do not believe we have freewill on heavenly things; I do believe we have freewill on earthly things (e.g. what to eat for breakfast). I agree with Xan re. his predestination comments. We may see some of the details differently, but in the big picture it appears that Greg, Xan and I all agree on the essentials of what it means to be a Christian. I think much of the difference in details comes from an incomplete understanding of rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel and with the method used to interpret Scripture. Almost five hundred years ago Luther and Calvin agreed on most of the details but not all; they were both Christians. That in part is why I urge people who are having doubts, or have discarded religion to go to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully in accordance with all Scripture (no cherry picking or ignoring the parts that make us cringe allowed). I think hearing the Word frequently and in context helps doubters gain a more thorough understanding of the reality of the truth, because Jesus is really present in the Word and Sacrament and may use that process to help the doubter - - - if there is a willingness and open mind to really hear, question, and learn. Then again, I may be wrong. Once again, in my opinion, it all boils down to who is going to be God in your life (i.e. what gives you meaning, identity, security, purpose)? My personal biggest roadblock is thinking my thinking is supreme.

I appreciate the advice but I've traveled too far down the evil path of thinking for myself by now to ever be able to turn back to religion. Maybe when I get old and senile there will be hope for me. Well, when I get senile any way. I'm already old.

Hey farjean2, my very best wishes for your future, regardless of whether you turn back to religion or not. I'm with you on the "old", but we are never too old to share a beer, coffee, barbecue, and stories .... maybe one of these days we will cross paths.

Sounds good. Just not this weekend. Mandatory evacuations are underway in Pinellas County.

[farjean2]

An interesting article on Luther for the Lutherans here. Did you know that October 31 of next month would be the 500th anniversary of the nailing of the 95 theses to start the Protestant Reformation (not really according to the article)....

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles ... egacy.html