Schools are such a waste of money

[doodle]

Deleted

[smurff]

You're kidding, right?

[doodle]

Deleted

[MediumTex]

Of course not. In fact I am going to petition my local school board to cut back the school day in our district to just three days a week. The little kids can spend the other two days doing productive things like cleaning out chimneys or shining shoes.

They could go to work in a top hat making shop.

I'm expecting those to come back in style soon.

Edit: I must not be thinking today.  The top hat factory is not going to be in the U.S.  Duh.

[brick-house]

The country is nuts. War on Terror, War on Iraq, War on Aghanistan, War on Libya, War on children left behind, War on drugs, War on poverty...  Military Keynesianism appears to be hitting a wall.  How about a freaking war on debt? 

We send our kids to private school.  It is a very painful monetary sacrifice on top of the property taxes and local income tax we pay for the public school; but we were really disappointed with the attitude of the public school teachers and the "curriculum".  We are taking the long view that our children deserve better than an education factory.  IMHO, Public schools are one overpriced racket - physical education teachers making 100 grand for nine months of work can't continue - can it?   

As always, Harry Browne was much more clear about the topic than I ever could be.

http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Educati ... eryone.htm

[TBV]

brick-house: .......7,8,9,10  DING, DING, DING!!!

[doodle]

I actually was a teacher for a few years, and I think it would take me a lot more than 100,000 a year to get me to go back into a public high school classroom. But at the end of the day, money really isn't the issue. No one chooses the teaching profession because they want to get rich. After taxes, most teachers I know in my county bring home in the neighborhood of 2500 a month. A lot of my colleagues had second jobs on the weekend or during the summer to make ends meet.

I don't claim to have a solution to our educational system's problems, but I know from first hand experience that it is in crisis. Sure, some of the teachers are ineffective and are probably not suited for the job. However, to claim that teachers are at the root of our educational shortfalls as a nation is a boneheaded and totally unjustified argument. Our educational issues as a country start with a Ferris Bueller's Day Off type attitude towards school in general. Kids show up unmotivated, unprepared, and undisciplined. There are deeper societal attitudes and cultural values towards education that underlie many of the issues that public schools face in America. Of course, there are some exceptional teachers that have the ability to captivate any group of kids and instill in them a love of learning. These particular teachers however are endowed with a talent on par with our greatest athletes, CEO's, or politicians. It is impossible to expect that you are going to fill every classroom with an exceptional teacher when you pay 28,000 dollars a year.

Frankly, I don't see how privatizing education would solve our problems either. The reality is that private schools function so well because they simply expel the worst students. Public schools don't have that option. In addition, children who attend private schools tend to come from families that value education. The same can't be said for many of the students who show up at public schools.

Again, I don't have any solutions to our educational crisis, other than to say that there isn't a simple answer.

[stone]

That Harry Browne quote has a very telling sentance: "Yet in 1818 we were a small-farm nation without colleges or universities to speak of. Could those simple folk have had more complex minds than our own?"

I can't help seeing all of this coming back time and again to the USA of the early 1800s having very widely dispersed wealth with people owning the farms they farmed. People had control over their own resources and destiny. If people are part of an owning class then I think that transforms things. If most people are labouring 24/7 in a menial way entirely for someone else or kicking their heels unemployed, then spirit slumps and everything else along with it. Doing exactly the same work but with yourself in control can make a world of difference.

[smurff]

from
http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Educati ... eryone.htm

"Yet in 1818 we were a small-farm nation without colleges or universities to speak of. Could those simple folk have had more complex minds than our own?"

Well, HB was wrong about at least part of this.  I did just a little bit of research, and here's what I discovered about the year of founding for the handful of liberal arts colleges (where thinking is nurtured) and universities I could think of:

College of William and Mary, founded in 1693
Harvard University, founded in 1636
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, 1789
Yale University, 1701
University of Michigan, 1817
Dartmouth College, 1769
Bowdoin College, 1794
Williams College, 1793
Columbia University, 1754
St. Louis University, 1818

It seems the small farm nation in 1818 had a substantial college/university presence as well.

[brick-house]

I am not a teacher.  However, I do work two jobs and also prepare taxes from January to April in order to make ends meet.  Getting paid less than pro athletes and working hard is not the exclusive province of teachers.  My wife is a school teacher with close to twenty years of experience.  She teaches in a private school.  Her college classmates teach in public schools.  Her college classmates that went the public school route average about $75,000 per year, plus benefits.  My wife makes roughly half of that with no pension and spartan benefits. Both my wife and her classmates are excellent teachers and work their tails off.  Her classmates are fortunate to be in a powerful union and paid by the taxpayers. 

At my wife's school, annual tuition is $3200.  Actual cost is $6500.  The parish subsidizes the difference and thus watches expenses like a hawk.  In the same township, average cost per pupil is $19,000.  So it goes...

One of my favorite tax returns is for a tenured Physical Education teacher with 30 plus years of service.  $108,000, plus benefits.  Not a bad gig -100k, plus a fat pension for refereeing six games of dodge ball a day...

A little classroom humor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc2muGlQ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi4s8cjLFI

[doodle]

Brick-House,

If teaching were such a cushy, well paying job, why is it that 50% of public school teachers quit within five years? I fall into that category. 

I assume that there must be some advantage to teaching in a private school that makes your wife accept half the money of her peers.

[Plumbline]

We chose to home-school our children. There are as many reasons why parents home school as there are families, but we chose this route primarily because we were not about to abdicate our parental authority to the Imperial US Governmental Education Department.  The madness of two parents working all day while the government indoctrinates our children for 8 hours per day - we just could not drink that koolaid. 

Great book -  Weapons-Mass-Instruction
About the Author: John Taylor Gatto was a teacher in New York for 26 years before quitting in 1991. He is a tireless advocate for school reform, has won numerous awards and his earlier book, Dumbing Us Down, has sold over 100,000 copies.

http://www.amazon.com/Weapons-Mass-Inst ... 0865716315

Editorial Reviews
Product Description
“Gatto draws on thirty years in the classroom and many years of research as a school reformer. He puts forth his thesis with a rhetorical style that is passionate, logical, and laden with examples and illustrations.”? ForeWord Magazine
“Weapons of Mass Instruction is probably his best yet. Gatto’s storytelling skill shines as he relates tales of real people who fled the school system and succeeded in spite of the popular wisdom that insists on diplomas, degrees and credentials. If you are just beginning to suspect there may be a problem with schooling (as opposed to educating as Gatto would say), then you’ll not likely find a better expose of the problem than Weapons of Mass Instruction.”? Cathy Duffy Reviews
"In this book, the noisy gadfly of U.S. education takes up the question of damage done in the name of schooling. Again he touches on many of the same questions and finds the same answers.  Gatto is a bold and compelling critic in a field defined by politic statements, and from the first pages of this book he takes even unwilling readers along with him. In Weapons of Mass Instruction, he speaks movingly to readers' deepest desires for an education that taps their talents and frees frustrated ambitions. It is a challenging and extraordinary book that is a must read for anyone navigating their way through the school system." - Ria Julien - Winnipeg Free Press

John Taylor Gatto’s Weapons of Mass Instruction focuses on mechanisms of familiar schooling that cripple imagination, discourage critical thinking, and create a false view of learning as a by-product of rote-memorization drills. Gatto’s earlier book, Dumbing Us Down, put that now-famous expression of the title into common use worldwide. Weapons of Mass Instruction promises to add another chilling metaphor to the brief against schooling.

Here is a demonstration that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Fichte, Darwin, Wundt, and others, which contend the term “education”? is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable.

Realizing that goal demands that the young be conditioned to rely upon experts, remain divided from natural alliances, and accept disconnections from the experiences that create self-reliance and independence.

Escaping this trap requires a different way of growing up, one Gatto calls “open source learning.”? In chapters such as “A Letter to Kristina, my Granddaughter”?; “Fat Stanley”?; and “Walkabout:London,”? this different reality is illustrated.

John Taylor Gatto taught for thirty years in public schools before resigning from school-teaching in the op-ed pages of The Wall Street Journal during the year he was named New York State’s official Teacher of the Year. Since then, he has traveled three million miles lecturing on school reform.

[doodle]

Plumbline,

My experiences as a student in America's public schools were awful, so I commend parents who have both the ability and time to educate their own children....very few parents do. I would however say that "indoctrinate" is a rather strong word to use for what goes on in your average classroom.

But, I must stress again that the problem with our schools in America does not fundamentally rest with the teachers, although I do acknowledge there are a few who should find another career. The problem is much deeper and more complex than that. There are societal and cultural values that come into play. For example, I think that much of the popular culture starting with the 80's teenage high school movies and progressing to Beavis and Butthead and South Park etc. has had a detrimental effect on children's respect for school. You cannot expect to malign and undermine teachers and education in the popular culture without having a negative effect on educational motivation and achievement.

Fixing our education system is going to take the efforts of the whole village. I currently don't see any issue that is more important to America today.  

[MediumTex]

Here is a demonstration that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Fichte, Darwin, Wundt, and others, which contend the term “education”? is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable.

Realizing that goal demands that the young be conditioned to rely upon experts, remain divided from natural alliances, and accept disconnections from the experiences that create self-reliance and independence.

That sounds a lot like the average investor's approach to the market, and to which the PP is an effectie antidote.

No wonder the PP looks so weird to most people.

[MediumTex]

Plumbline,

My experiences as a student in America's public schools were awful, so I commend parents who have both the ability and time to educate their own children....very few parents do. I would however say that "indoctrinate" is a rather strong word to use for what goes on in your average classroom.

But, I must stress again that the problem with our schools in America does not fundamentally rest with the teachers, although I do acknowledge there are a few who should find another career. The problem is much deeper and more complex than that. There are societal and cultural values that come into play. For example, I think that much of the popular culture starting with the 80's teenage high school movies and progressing to Beavis and Butthead and South Park etc. has had a detrimental effect on children's respect for school. You cannot expect to malign and undermine teachers and education in the popular culture without having a negative effect on educational motivation and achievement.

Fixing our education system is going to take the efforts of the whole village. I currently don't see any issue that is more important to America today.  

My public school experience from K-6 was pretty good.  From 7-12, however, I felt like I was trapped in a serial episode of "Candid Camera" spanning several seasons.

Since every signal I received from those around me during these years was that I was in the middle of a running joke, I treated it like a joke.  It was the only way to get through it and remain sane.  I saw highly intelligent people around me who were less willing to roll with the absurdity of it all, and they struggled emotionally, psychologically, socially, etc.  As for me, I had a great time.  It was like going to the circus every day, except I got to actually dress up like a clown and play with the animals.

By the time I graduated I felt like I had been in a "One Flew Over te Cuckoos Nest"-type institution where the money skill was avoiding being lobotomized by the administration.

After high school I went on to college and my mind woke up to the joys of learning and education.  After a strong college career, I went on to a top law school and had my mind really pounded into shape.

Overall, it turned out okay, but the public school experience was somewhere between comical and tragic.  Many people don't come out of the experience as intellectually intact as I was able to.  I think that for many of them the last real intellectual curiosity they experience is around the fourth grade, and then a large part of their brains go to sleep for the remainder of their lives.

How do you fix that?  Sometimes a situation is beyond "fixing"; sometimes you just recognize you are working with a salvage operation and you pick the few parts that can be recycled and throw the rest away.

[brick-house]

doodle quote:

If teaching were such a cushy, well paying job, why is it that 50% of public school teachers quit within five years? I fall into that category.

Where is that stat from?  Did you know that 50.000001% of private school teachers quit within the first 4.39 years.  

Not sure why you quit -  maybe you should re-join the profession and make a difference.  In my neck of the woods, the supply of school teachers vastly outnumbers the amount of open jobs.  In our school district, there were 400 applications for one Science teacher position.  

I definitely believe Physical Education Teacher is a cushy job, sort of like a camp counselor.  Teaching subjects like math and science is not a cushy job.  It is a calling and a tough, rigorous job.  However, public school teachers are more than fairly compensated for their nine months of arduous labor.  In fact, in PA and NJ these salaries and benefits are starting to get rolled back because they are no longer affordable.  

The problems that you are outlining are already addressed by the federal, state, and local village.  The village is already providing education from k-12 and subsidizing college.  Throwing more money at the problem is not the solution.  It starts and ends with the parents.  A good education requires quality teachers, but more importantly a commitment to education at home.  In communities where the broken home is the norm, there is not much a public school can do except babysit.  

As for my wife, I lost that battle years ago.  I tried to get her to go the public school route - she even had a job-offer but turned it down.  That is why I work so much...

A little Pink Floyd on the subject...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZbM_MIz4RM

[bigamish]

Where is that stat from?  Did you know that 50.000001% of private school teachers quit within the first 4.39 years.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01344.html

Also be aware that the $100K/year gym teacher, assuming the stat is real, is not the rule.  Location plays a huge role in how much you can expect to get paid, as does longevity in the profession.  For example, in the state of Connecticut (the state I grew up in) teaching is pretty lucrative.  I don't know what the current ranking is in 2011, but CT used to pay teachers the most of any state in the union.  This differs from my previous state of residence, New Hampshire.  My wife could have expected between $25-30K/year teaching science classes with an expected 60-80 hour work week.  No thanks.

[brick-house]

bigamish

Interesting article. Point taken.  I did not know the dropout rate was so high.   I asked my wife and she said that young teachers quit all the time, then asked me who I am sending an email to....  

I agree that location makes a big difference.  I would like to see the dropout rate in inner-city schools like Philadelphia (which is ridiculously high) versus suburban/rural.  
 
Working 60-80 hours a week is common in many professions, not just teaching.  Excellent benefits, pensions, and summers off are not too common...  

Anyway, interesting discussion.  I agree that teaching is a tough gig.  I learned that there is a definite testing period (first five years) for teachers.  However, I still think teachers are well paid when total comp (salary, benefits, pension, and time off) are considered.   I still think the public school system is a racket.  Yet, I will continue to humbly pay my homage to Public Schools via taxes (federal, state, and local) while paying for my kids to go to private school.  

Some info on teacher's salaries.

http://teacherportal.com/salary

Location, location, location...

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

An ode to teachers from Van Halen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0XLKcMoXRE

[cabronjames]

on teacher unions.

In general, we can say that most jobs actually do a productive job society needs.  I believe say the jobs of teacher, physician, & CEOs of companies that make a productive product or service would qualify as productive job society needs.  An example of the exception unproductive job would be say the active stock mutual fund manager, whose fund has an expense ratio of 1.00%, & whose performance sucks compared to the index fund VTI.

I would also state that among productive jobs, for each occupation there are people of median competent performance, excellent world-class performance, & incompetents that should leave the occupation.

In the USA, the trend seems to be that if you are a union, that calls itself a union, it is "politically correct" in elite politrickian & media community to bash that occupation, & use the anecdote of incompetents from that occupation & imply that this is the norm for that occupation, thereby greatly insulting the competent of that occupation.  Example: K-12 teachers.

OTOH, if your union is not labeled a union, & your union is effective in buying off enough elite politrickians, any criticism of your union is Not Allowed by the elite media/politrickian complex.
Example: physicians with thier AMA union
Example: CEOs with their Chamber of Commerce union.  Public stock company CEOs often have an addition informal 2nd union, by filling the Board of Directors with non-independent buddies, limiting actual owner/shareholder control of their company.

[doodle]

As many might know, Thomas Jefferson was an advocate for public schools. Below are some of his principal ideas regarding the topic:

1) Attendance is voluntary. "It is better to tolerate that rare instance of a parent's refusing to let his child be educated, than to shock the common feelings by a forcible transportation and education of the infant against the will of his father." (1)

2) Every child is entitled to three years of instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic.

3) The reading for the primary school years is mainly history. "The first stage of this education . . . wherein the great mass of the people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future order will be laid here. Instead therefore of putting the Bible and Testament into the hands of the children, at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently matured for religious enquiries, their memories may here be stored with the most useful facts from Grecian, Roman, European, and American history."

And later in the text, Jefferson writes that "of all the views of this law, none is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people the safe, as they are the ultimate, guardians of their own liberty. For this purpose the reading in the first stage, where they will receive their whole education, is proposed, as has been said, to be chiefly historical. History by apprising them of the past will enable them to judge of the future; it will avail them of the experience of other times and other nations; it will qualify them as judges of the actions and designs of men; it will enable them to know ambition under every disguise it may assume; and knowing it, to defeat its views."

4) The "best genius in the school of those whose parents are too poor to give them further education" is entitled to a fourth and fifth year at a "grammar school."

5) Students at grammar schools study "Greek, Latin, geography, and the higher branches of numerical arithmetic."

6) After a trial period of one or two years, the best student at each grammar school is selected for six years of further instruction. "By this means . . . the best geniusses will be raked from the rubbish annually, and be instructed, at the public expense, so far as the grammar schools go."

7) After the sixth year, the best half of these go to college. "At the end of six years instruction, one half are to be discontinued (from among whom the grammar schools will probably be supplied with future masters); and the other half, who are to be chosen for the superiority of their parts and disposition, are to be sent and continued three years in the study of such sciences as they shall chuse, at William and Mary college . . ."

TJ's ideas are in some ways a far cry from our compulsory public education system today. I would stress however that most laws, regulations, and institutions (although they might result in unintended consequences) are created for a reason. Most recently with regards to banking regulation, you have Sarbanes-Oxley written as a reaction to a number of major corporate and accounting scandals including those affecting Enron, Tyco International, and WorldCom. And in the last couple of years, Dodd-Frank was passed in reaction to the latest Wall Street collapse in 2008. Institutions like the SEC or Homeland Security were likewise created to address very real issues.

I'm sure that the massive public education system and all of its structures and regulations that exist today started as a series of attempts to improve or fix what were seen as genuine issues that existed with the pre-public education system we had a few hundred years ago. In light of new research and data perhaps we need to make changes to the present system. However, we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Public k-12 education and the public university system has served our country very well over the last 100 years.

One issue with some libertarians is that they somehow assume if structures, rules, and regulations were removed, humankind would revert back to a utopian "Garden of Eden" type society. What they fail to consider is that these regulations and institutions were in fact implemented (although maybe imperfectly) to address issues and problems with the status quo. I think it is more constructive and realistic in that case to focus on reworking or rewriting more effective regulation and institutions, rather advocating for their abolishment.

[doodle]

Deleted

[Gumby]

James Altucher's argument on why our curriculum sucks...

Shakespeare is Awful, Jefferson was a Rapist, and Pi is Useless