Self Driving Cars Article

[bedraggled]

Mountaineer,

I believe the Dennis Weaver movie is "Duel," which I believe was Spielberg's first movie.

Spielberg's first movie appearance may have been as the Cook County, IL, tax assesor in "The Blues Brothers" with Jake and Elwood, of course.

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

I believe the Dennis Weaver movie is "Duel," which I believe was Spielberg's first movie.

Spielberg's first movie appearance may have been as the Cook County, IL, tax assesor in "The Blues Brothers" with Jake and Elwood, of course.

Duel - That's it! Thanks. I forgot it was a Spielberg movie.

[dualstow]

Duel - great writer, Richard Matheson.

[bedraggled]

Xan,

You have a point about having a V8 and manual.

I just drove 20 hours from Florida to Ohio, all Interstates, and the 5-speed manual made the trip less boring. Admittedly, I never took it out of 5th gear on the highway. Down shifting is not something i do on a 27 year old vehicle: 324,000 miles, 2.2L engine and just switched from 5W30 to 10W30 to help the compression- but I'm still pondering that. I don't think the car has the oomph, anymore, even with down shifting. I think the new cars with their fancy automatic transmissions have more power than my Accord. The trucks are too scary, anyway, and maybe the truckers are not as good as they once were. Has anyone noticed a tripling of trucks on the road over 4 decades?

I expect to take the Accord to 400,000 miles. In 3 years, I get an "Antique license plate!

Florida driving has eliminated tension in my driving. I am surpried. Well-maintained, no winter-effect Interstates are lovely. The move from NYC has paid off with the driving. I still miss Manhattan, though.

[dualstow]

Well, it's a libertarian-friendly forum. Not sure if it's a microcosm of the nation's drivers. But maybe. Who knows.

[Pointedstick]

So far we seem to have concluded that cars are fun to drive given the following conditions:
- The car has "personality": convertible, manual transmission, good engine noise, old-fashioned, etc.
- You're driving on a highway or back road that's cut through a beautiful natural environment
- You're not pressed for time
- There is no significant traffic
- You have an adult passenger with whom you can make conversation and are possibly romantically involved
- The back seats are empty or their passengers are quiet and peaceful

So basically, driving a car is fun when you're on a date or taking a road trip with your spouse and possibly your school-age kids who are pacified with electronic diversions.

Notable activities that are never fun with a car:
- Commuting alone to work along traffic-filled city streets
- Driving alone on traffic-filled city streets to run an errand or make an appointment
- Driving alone on traffic-filled city streets to drop off a kid or pick them up
- Transporting the whole family on traffic-filled city streets to some activity 2-10 miles away

So... 99% of what cars are actually used for on a day-to-day basis.




I also find it interesting how the conversation has shifted to whether and when cars are fun to drive--as if this has anything to do with self-driving cars, which promise to turn drivers into passengers. I think the allure of self-driving cars stems from the fact that most people at least subconsciously admit that 99% of vehicular passenger transportation tasks in an urban or suburban environment aren't fun, and that they wouldn't object to becoming passengers for those use cases. Working vehicles like pickup trucks and tractors that are actually used to do work and transport goods and materials intracity or on farms cannot be made self-driving because much of their use involves discretionary maneuvering on off-road environments and tight spaces. And the self-driving car does nothing to enhance the the possible romance and relaxation of long country drives through nature. For those reasons, I think they are totally pointless.



The original author's use case is easily solved with a decent train from his town to Atlanta. The tracks are probably already there. Here are all the tracks in Georgia:

[align=center]
Source: http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/image/107907497780[/align]

Most of those are only used for freight today, but there's no reason whatsoever why they couldn't have regular passenger service again. If there was actually a real national push to reactivate passenger rail, then within 6 months, the author could walk or take a cab to the train station in his town, ride a leisurely midnight train to Atlanta, sleeping the whole time, and then use Atlanta's own public transit system (or a cab) to reach his final destination. People already do this in the northeast corridor all the time. I have done it, when I lived there. It works. It's great. It's cheaper and safer than owning a car. It feels civilized.

And it's technologically and societally possible today throughout the country if the government wanted or even just allowed it. The technology is fully mature, having been first invented 150 years ago and continuously refined since then. It's doable in a very short time. Compare this to the pipe dream future of high-tech AI-driven vehicles that does not yet exist, and if it ever does, it will be very expensive, still be more dangerous than trains, further centralize a huge amount of national wealth in Silicon Valley, and totally erase what remains of the mythos that driving enhances freedom (you'll be at the mercy of the AI in your dashboard, and the faraway companies that control it).

Yes, self-driving cars may at some point be a rational response to many people's personal individual problem of having to drive in traffic a lot, but this problem can be solved more effectively in a coordinated societal manner, while reducing the private costs that people have to pay. It's like how the problem of air pollution is better solved by cleaning up the air than issuing everyone HEPA filter gas masks to wear when they go outside.

[Mountaineer]

So far we seem to have concluded that cars are fun to drive given the following conditions:
- The car has "personality": convertible, manual transmission, good engine noise, old-fashioned, etc.
- You're driving on a highway or back road that's cut through a beautiful natural environment
- You're not pressed for time
- There is no significant traffic
- You have an adult passenger with whom you can make conversation and are possibly romantically involved
- The back seats are empty or their passengers are quiet and peaceful

So basically, driving a car is fun when you're on a date or taking a road trip with your spouse and possibly your school-age kids who are pacified with electronic diversions.

Notable activities that are never fun with a car:
- Commuting alone to work along traffic-filled city streets
- Driving alone on traffic-filled city streets to run an errand or make an appointment
- Driving alone on traffic-filled city streets to drop off a kid or pick them up
- Transporting the whole family on traffic-filled city streets to some activity 2-10 miles away

So... 99% of what cars are actually used for on a day-to-day basis.




I also find it interesting how the conversation has shifted to whether and when cars are fun to drive--as if this has anything to do with self-driving cars, which promise to turn drivers into passengers. I think the allure of self-driving cars stems from the fact that most people at least subconsciously admit that 99% of vehicular passenger transportation tasks in an urban or suburban environment aren't fun, and that they wouldn't object to becoming passengers for those use cases. Working vehicles like pickup trucks and tractors that are actually used to do work and transport goods and materials intracity or on farms cannot be made self-driving because much of their use involves discretionary maneuvering on off-road environments and tight spaces. And the self-driving car does nothing to enhance the the possible romance and relaxation of long country drives through nature. For those reasons, I think they are totally pointless.



The original author's use case is easily solved with a decent train from his town to Atlanta. The tracks are probably already there. Here are all the tracks in Georgia:

[align=center]
Source: http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/image/107907497780[/align]

Most of those are only used for freight today, but there's no reason whatsoever why they couldn't have regular passenger service again. If there was actually a real national push to reactivate passenger rail, then within 6 months, the author could walk or take a cab to the train station in his town, ride a leisurely midnight train to Atlanta, sleeping the whole time, and then use Atlanta's own public transit system (or a cab) to reach his final destination. People already do this in the northeast corridor all the time. I have done it, when I lived there. It works. It's great. It's cheaper and safer than owning a car. It feels civilized.

And it's technologically and societally possible today throughout the country if the government wanted or even just allowed it. Compare this to the pipe dream future of high-tech AI-driven vehicles that does not yet exist, and if it ever does, it will be very expensive, still be more dangerous than trains, further centralize a huge amount of national wealth in Silicon Valley, and totally erase what remains of the mythos that driving enhances freedom (you'll be at the mercy of the AI in your dashboard, and the faraway companies that control it).

Yes, self-driving cars may at some point be a rational response to many people's personal individual problem of having to drive in traffic a lot, but this problem can be solved more effectively in a coordinated societal manner, while reducing the provate costs that people have to pay. It's like how the problem of air pollution is better solved by cleaning up the air than issuing everyone HEPA filter gas masks to wear when they go outside.

I agree with most of your thesis. I would put the number closer to 25 to 50% for me in my location though, not 99%. Maybe that is just me since I try to avoid traffic congestion and Interstate type highways whenever I can.

[Pointedstick]

I agree with most of your thesis. I would put the number closer to 25 to 50% for me in my location though, not 99%. Maybe that is just me since I try to avoid traffic congestion and Interstate type highways whenever I can.

Right, because you're retired, have no children in the house, live in a picturesque semi-rural area, and those life circumstances free you to drive whatever type of pleasurable vehicle you like.

[Mountaineer]

I agree with most of your thesis. I would put the number closer to 25 to 50% for me in my location though, not 99%. Maybe that is just me since I try to avoid traffic congestion and Interstate type highways whenever I can.

Right, because you're retired, have no children in the house, live in a picturesque semi-rural area, and those life circumstances free you to drive whatever type of pleasurable vehicle you like.

You nailed it!

[WiseOne]

I also find it interesting how the conversation has shifted to whether and when cars are fun to drive--as if this has anything to do with self-driving cars, which promise to turn drivers into passengers.

...

Yes, self-driving cars may at some point be a rational response to many people's personal individual problem of having to drive in traffic a lot, but this problem can be solved more effectively in a coordinated societal manner, while reducing the provate costs that people have to pay. It's like how the problem of air pollution is better solved by cleaning up the air than issuing everyone HEPA filter gas masks to wear when they go outside.

I think the shift in topic was just because it was fun to talk about. Self-driving cars are about replacing taxis and (hopefully) re-introducing jitneys, not romantic drives in the country. Which is probably, as you point out, < 1% of car miles driven. And anyhow, it sounds to me like most of the criteria for enjoying said drives could be met by a self-driving car.

So what solution are you proposing for addressing traffic and road safety? Beefing up passenger trains would be great, but it's not a complete solution - and it's a very tall order given the mess that we have now, with Amtrak as our very badly run national railroad, and the fact that most of the rail lines on your map are for freight. In fact, part of Amtrak's problem is that they own no track outside of the Northeast Corridor, so anytime a freight train comes along the passenger trains have to be delayed to accommodate it.

You might want to examine the New York metropolitan area as an example of the system you're envisioning. There is a dense and very well-used network of passenger trains, buses, etc. If they all vanished tomorrow or were reduced to the level of most metro areas' public transit system, the traffic would get orders of magnitude worse, so in that respect it's a success. But there is still a role for independent or pooled car rides, and thus room for self-driving cars in the mix.

That said...I agree with the author of the article that Cortopassi linked that any passive form of transport beats an airline for short hauls. I am amazed at people who fly from NYC to DC. I always go by train. Just as fast and no risk of being groped by some creepy TSA agent. Of course, Amtrak comes with that package.

[l82start]

just as a counter point to some of what has been said about what makes driving bad.... being alone is a perk not a flaw for happy driving, being alone in the car is my quiet time, so not having somebody around is a positive not a negative...

the stop and surge traffic jam is the one spot i would like a self driving car, it is a particularly annoying type of traffic, busy/fast/slow /crazy i don't mind.... but stop and go takes extra focus on driving and builds frustration quickly, especially when the cause is everyone rubbernecking some guy fixing a flat well out of traffic making the entire jam a pointless exercise in dumb human behavior...

[Maddy]

At least it's an approach that, for once, recognizes the principal pitfall of mass transit. That problem, which is the elephant in the livingroom, is that normal middle and upper-class people--at least those on the west coast and central U.S.--generally will do anything to avoid being forced to commune with the dreaded public.

[dualstow]

Compare this to the pipe dream future of high-tech AI-driven vehicles that does not yet exist, and if it ever does, it will be very expensive, still be more dangerous than trains,

You don't think current, existing Google cars aren't already pretty impressive, PS?

I love trains and I take Amtrak (NE corridor), but individual cars make good sense for large families with young kids, smokers (and tokers), traveling salesmen, pets, and so on. A lot of people are used to that privacy.

I'll use the word I use for firearms in the U.S.: cars are entrenched.

Maybe you're just making to much sense. I would like to see trains and AI cars. What I expect is a messy, poorly executed transition to the latter. In the meantime, I'll be riding the Hyperloop.

[Mountaineer]

Compare this to the pipe dream future of high-tech AI-driven vehicles that does not yet exist, and if it ever does, it will be very expensive, still be more dangerous than trains,

You don't think current, existing Google cars aren't already pretty impressive, PS?

I love trains and I take Amtrak (NE corridor), but individual cars make good sense for large families with young kids, smokers (and tokers), traveling salesmen, pets, and so on. A lot of people are used to that privacy.

I'll use the word I use for firearms in the U.S.: cars are entrenched.

Maybe you're just making to much sense. I would like to see trains and AI cars. What I expect is a messy, poorly executed transition to the latter. In the meantime, I'll be riding the Hyperloop.

Not to poke too much fun, but perhaps a resurgence of LSD with self-driving car aficionados could prove extremely entertaining for those who enjoy Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, or perhaps Puff, the Magic Dragon flashbacks, or flashforwards.

[dualstow]

I suppose we'd have to be careful how we use the term 'road trip.'

[Mountaineer]

I suppose we'd have to be careful how we use the term 'road trip.'

Good one!

[Cortopassi]

the stop and surge traffic jam is the one spot i would like a self driving car, it is a particularly annoying type of traffic, busy/fast/slow /crazy i don't mind.... but stop and go takes extra focus on driving and builds frustration quickly, especially when the cause is everyone rubbernecking some guy fixing a flat well out of traffic making the entire jam a pointless exercise in dumb human behavior...

That's my main reason as well.

The other one I would find useful is for my aging parents. They are 30 miles away, my dad doesn't drive anymore and my mom doesn't like expressways or driving at night. Given that we are busy with 2 kids, that severely limits the times we get together. There are no convenient trains or non-car routes between us either.

So if they could hop into a self driving car that they either have, or comes up to their driveway automatically, get to our house, visit and then do the same in return, that would be a big plus in the family seeing each other more often.

Considering this is the norm now, families generally not living next to each other, and probably lots across city and suburbs and farther, as people get older, I know I'd love to have this convenience.

[l82start]

same for my folks, but i am not sure the age/technology barrier can be crossed, would they trust it? would the car clock be flashing 12:00 forever? each driver less car might need a tech guy riding along just to set the destination and calm the technology fears......

[dualstow]

would the car clock be flashing 12:00 forever?

[WiseOne]

the stop and surge traffic jam is the one spot i would like a self driving car, it is a particularly annoying type of traffic, busy/fast/slow /crazy i don't mind.... but stop and go takes extra focus on driving and builds frustration quickly, especially when the cause is everyone rubbernecking some guy fixing a flat well out of traffic making the entire jam a pointless exercise in dumb human behavior...

That's my main reason as well.

The other one I would find useful is for my aging parents. They are 30 miles away, my dad doesn't drive anymore and my mom doesn't like expressways or driving at night. Given that we are busy with 2 kids, that severely limits the times we get together. There are no convenient trains or non-car routes between us either.

So if they could hop into a self driving car that they either have, or comes up to their driveway automatically, get to our house, visit and then do the same in return, that would be a big plus in the family seeing each other more often.

Considering this is the norm now, families generally not living next to each other, and probably lots across city and suburbs and farther, as people get older, I know I'd love to have this convenience.

Definitely! And there are people besides the elderly who can't drive, e.g. people with epilepsy.

I82start, are you from the New York City metro area? The term "rubbernecking" is pretty specific geographically. There's an online quiz posted by the New York Times that determines your region of origin by asking you about the idioms you use.

[l82start]

nope not from the NY area, but i have spent a couple years on the east coast..i don't know what my idioms would say about where i am from. i have lived in several parts of the country and have picked up bits from all over ... i still sometimes call fizzy sugar drinks "soda pop"

[Xan]

I've never had much to do with NYC or the east coast, and I'd say "rubbernecking". For what it's worth.

[Cortopassi]

Around the Chicago area it is called a "Gaper's Delay"

[l82start]

you are right the problem wont go away until there are either a majority of driver-less cars or the driver-less cars organize themselves to be moving together in a dedicated lane/lanes.. but the ability to see stop and go traffic developing and switch the auto driver on, and say "oh well i am in for a slow stretch, i will kick back and let the car deal with it", would at least end the frustration...

i really have no idea how well software could handle all the unexpected and tough to recognize hazards on roads, pot holes mattresses, people on the shoulder to close to traffic etc. it all seems a bit sci-fi to me, but there does seem to be growing confidence by the people involved that it can be done...

[dualstow]

i really have no idea how well software could handle all the unexpected and tough to recognize hazards on roads, pot holes mattresses, people on the shoulder to close to traffic etc. it all seems a bit sci-fi to me, but there does seem to be growing confidence by the people involved that it can be done...

A lot of that has already been done and is sci-non-fi. There are "campuses" where these cars practice with mannequins and things suddenly thrown in their path. The latest place I read about it was Popular Science (print version).