Self Driving Cars Article

[Mountaineer]

Wow. Just wow.

Just pointing out the obvious.
No, seriously, it will take some generations. People used to drive without traffic lights once upon a time, too.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spi ... 48747.html

http://thecityfix.com/blog/naked-street ... nd-safety/

[Pointedstick]

Driving a car is only fun when you're the only one doing it. The golden age of driving took place when cars were mechanically simple and the government was in the middle of massively overbuilding roads and highways relative to the number of people who could afford to own cars. It was fun because you could practically build the car yourself, and once you took it out, you mostly had the road to yourself. You could feel the wind whipping your hair and experience the raw masculine power of the throbbing machine you'd built between under your legs.

...Until everyone wanted to do it and the roads started filling up. Now there's traffic, and driving in traffic is no fun at all--and dangerous, too, because most people are terrible drivers. Drunk driving and road rage become scourges on the road. Rules and regulations start proliferating, and now your manly machine is hemmed in by painted lines and colored lights, and stalked by overzealous highway patrolmen. The government demands proof of competency, a license, and the maintenance of expensive insurance. And because a certain number of irresponsible jerks don't follow those rules, your insurance costs even more. The government starts to make rules about how cars are designed and built, with the aim of improving safety--which makes them more expensive and impossible for a tinkerer to work on.

Driving isn't fun. It may have been in 1963, but it isn't now. People who think driving is fun are experiencing that fun mostly as nostalgia for something that died decades ago, not because of what driving a car is like today.

[dualstow]

Mountaineer, that Der Spiegel article is fascinating!

The one thing I would add, PS, is that I asked my folks about what traffic was like in the 50s and 60s and they said it was awful then, too. I don't know, maybe some members here were around for that. But, this would have been around D.C., so maybe that's not the best indicator.

[AnotherSwede]

Traffic lights vs not
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFOo3e0nxSI

[dualstow]

Traffic lights vs not
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFOo3e0nxSI

I think I've just been converted!

[Cortopassi]

Traffic lights vs not
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFOo3e0nxSI

I've seen this, and it is one case and one intersection. For all you know, this light being out and flowing freely causes a massive jam at another 1/2 mile down the road. There could have been an accident earlier on limiting the cars coming through on one day vs. the other, etc, etc.

Monday vs. Tuesday differences are typical as well. Monday's have salespeople in their offices planning their visits, Tuesday's they are out going to customers. I see this all the time.

Actually now reading the video notes, it seems the whole city had power cut. So no doubt there were bigger/different jams at different places. Or maybe people decided not to go out because of the power being out in the first place!

[flyingpylon]

Driving isn't fun. It may have been in 1963, but it isn't now. People who think driving is fun are experiencing that fun mostly as nostalgia for something that died decades ago, not because of what driving a car is like today.

Sorry, this may be your opinion but I think you are vastly underestimating the number of people that enjoy driving, and the number of places where driving can be enjoyable. Commuting, interstate travel, and running errands generally suck, but there are a ton of other ways to enjoy driving whether on 4, 3, or 2 wheels.

[Cortopassi]

Driving isn't fun. It may have been in 1963, but it isn't now. People who think driving is fun are experiencing that fun mostly as nostalgia for something that died decades ago, not because of what driving a car is like today.

Sorry, this may be your opinion but I think you are vastly underestimating the number of people that enjoy driving, and the number of places where driving can be enjoyable. Commuting, interstate travel, and running errands generally suck, but there are a ton of other ways to enjoy driving whether on 4, 3, or 2 wheels.

Sure, but the three you list, for me at least, constitute 98% of my driving! Of the others, the only enjoyment I get is 2 wheels on a bike. I used to own a 125cc scooter but after too many close calls with cars not seeing me, and having kids, I sold it.

[Pointedstick]

Driving isn't fun. It may have been in 1963, but it isn't now. People who think driving is fun are experiencing that fun mostly as nostalgia for something that died decades ago, not because of what driving a car is like today.

Sorry, this may be your opinion but I think you are vastly underestimating the number of people that enjoy driving, and the number of places where driving can be enjoyable. Commuting, interstate travel, and running errands generally suck, but there are a ton of other ways to enjoy driving whether on 4, 3, or 2 wheels.

Okay, that leaves intra-state pleasure driving. So... ATVing, motorcycle racing, golf carting, and driving to a nearby campsite? That sort of thing? If so, these aren't the kinds of activities we're talking about in the context of city planning and municipal infrastructure. They're immaterial to the question of how people should get to work, leave the state, and run errands.

[AnotherSwede]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwHfibl1AoI

[flyingpylon]

By "interstate" I simply meant "freeway" or "multi-lane divided highway" or whatever it's called in the reader's part of the world.

At any rate, I don't think the majority of people are going to give up their personal vehicles anytime soon. Might depend on one's definition of "soon".

[dualstow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwHfibl1AoI

Very interesting. I did feel sorry for the blind guy.
You know, I pretty much expect small town Brits to behave as they did, whether or not there's much logic behind that expectation.

And, as much as I love my fellow countrymen, I would expect Americans to maybe be polite on Day 1, but to rapidly assume right of way after a few days, with tons of road rage incidents. A recent one that made the news involved no lights, just two cars merging into traffic. A young student (Roberson) was merging at the same time as this angry guy, and he shot her in the head and killed her.

[Pointedstick]

I don't see any signs that Americans want to go to high density, walkable cities.

But the few parts of the USA that can be described in these terms are currently seeing a vast increase in demand to live there, accompanied by skyrocketing rents--markets in action!

I don't believe that Americans are uniquely stupid and wasteful in our living arrangement preferences. That's like saying that Africans just like living in mud huts. Sure, if all you've ever known is a mud hut! Americans like what we're used to, same as everyone. And we're used to Car Hell because that's where we grew up (for the most part; people who grew up in high density walkable cities seem to be pretty happy with them).

A lot of early America was built to be human-centric--especially in the 13 original colonies. Old cities in those states had normal, human-scale, walkable downtowns (or used to, before they were bulldozed to make way for freeways). A huge amount of the history of the automobile's popularity comes from explicit government favoritism as a reward to the automakers for their help churning out war matériel during WWII. It's a really interesting history. Americans didn't come to fall in love with cars by accident. The government neatly made it possible, at great taxpayer expense.

[Pointedstick]

By "interstate" I simply meant "freeway" or "multi-lane divided highway" or whatever it's called in the reader's part of the world.

I'm still not sure what the conditions are where driving is actually fun--outside of ATVing and the like. Driving as a hobby--in your ATV or motorcycle or golf cart or rented drag racer--now that I can see being fun. But driving with a purpose in mind, as a means to the end of getting from point A to point B? It's really hard for me to imagine a situation in which that could be fun, and I've certainly never experienced it. If you have, I'd love to hear about it!

[Xan]

There's a place near here where a freeway begins at a stoplight, followed by a slight bend and a bit of a hill. Being first at that stoplight makes for a pretty glorious time when the light turns green.

Banking along a big ramp at sunset with the top down is always good. Nice views.

Downshifting to pass somebody is fun.

Much of this relies on a convertible V8 with a manual transmission...

[l82start]

By "interstate" I simply meant "freeway" or "multi-lane divided highway" or whatever it's called in the reader's part of the world.

I'm still not sure what the conditions are where driving is actually fun--outside of ATVing and the like. Driving as a hobby--in your ATV or motorcycle or golf cart or rented drag racer--now that I can see being fun. But driving with a purpose in mind, as a means to the end of getting from point A to point B? It's really hard for me to imagine a situation in which that could be fun, and I've certainly never experienced it. If you have, I'd love to hear about it!

i enjoy driving, and not just certain recreational exceptions. there is a meditative, relaxing and high focused awareness state associated with the being in control of a big hunk of steal moving at road speed.. i love long road trips and my morning commute to work.. sure some around town - stuck in traffic driving is a nuisance, but most driving is pleasurable i have nothing against walkable cities or the potential for driver-less cars, but driving is fun, from your descriptions of driving it sounds like Luddite environmentalist thinking is killing your potential for experiencing the joy of being behind the wheel..

[WiseOne]

I don't see any signs that Americans want to go to high density, walkable cities.

But the few parts of the USA that can be described in these terms are currently seeing a vast increase in demand to live there, accompanied by skyrocketing rents--markets in action!

I don't believe that Americans are uniquely stupid and wasteful in our living arrangement preferences. That's like saying that Africans just like living in mud huts. Sure, if all you've ever known is a mud hut! Americans like what we're used to, same as everyone. And we're used to Car Hell because that's where we grew up (for the most part; people who grew up in high density walkable cities seem to be pretty happy with them).

A lot of early America was built to be human-centric--especially in the 13 original colonies. Old cities in those states had normal, human-scale, walkable downtowns (or used to, before they were bulldozed to make way for freeways). A huge amount of the history of the automobile's popularity comes from explicit government favoritism as a reward to the automakers for their help churning out war matériel during WWII. It's a really interesting history. Americans didn't come to fall in love with cars by accident. The government neatly made it possible, at great taxpayer expense.

Agreed. The government worked directly with GM and other large companies to establish the car culture and eliminate competitive technologies. The only thing worse than having government involved in an issue is having government cooperating with an industry. The best current example is healthcare.

Absolutely! In fact, here's a rather insightful article on the sad history of the jitney in the 1910s. Just imagine how cities and suburbs would have evolved if the jitneys hadn't been regulated out of existence. It's also quite a condemnation of how city governments work and who they serve (hint: not us). Keep this in mind the next time you hear Uber being vilified. They may not be a model citizen corporation, but I applaud what they're doing and hope they win their battle.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

Also just for the record...people DO want walkable neighborhoods. There's a reason why there is a "walkable" score assigned to residential properties on Zillow. I'm with PS, I don't think most people enjoy driving. It's actually a pretty lousy living arrangement to have to get into a car every time you leave your house. You can thank the regulators in LA, Kansas City, and other places in the first half of the 20th century for that.

[Mr Vacuum]

I do enjoy rolling along an interstate staring at the line in the road with my thoughts while the kids quietly read, chatter, or listen to audio books. But there is a very low threshold of pain for traffic and adverse weather and it's enjoyable for about an hour and a half. The first 20 minutes getting out of the city is harder. A train would do as well for my purposes, but I'm not going to complain about the privacy inside the car.

So I can see there is enjoyment lurking underneath driving, as in Xan's example, but I have to agree with PS it's at most a tiny fraction of the time spent actually driving, parking, and maintaining the car to the point that it's worth questioning.

[WiseOne]

But the few parts of the USA that can be described in these terms are currently seeing a vast increase in demand to live there, accompanied by skyrocketing rents--markets in action!

I don't believe that Americans are uniquely stupid and wasteful in our living arrangement preferences. That's like saying that Africans just like living in mud huts. Sure, if all you've ever known is a mud hut! Americans like what we're used to, same as everyone. And we're used to Car Hell because that's where we grew up (for the most part; people who grew up in high density walkable cities seem to be pretty happy with them).

A lot of early America was built to be human-centric--especially in the 13 original colonies. Old cities in those states had normal, human-scale, walkable downtowns (or used to, before they were bulldozed to make way for freeways). A huge amount of the history of the automobile's popularity comes from explicit government favoritism as a reward to the automakers for their help churning out war matériel during WWII. It's a really interesting history. Americans didn't come to fall in love with cars by accident. The government neatly made it possible, at great taxpayer expense.

Agreed. The government worked directly with GM and other large companies to establish the car culture and eliminate competitive technologies. The only thing worse than having government involved in an issue is having government cooperating with an industry. The best current example is healthcare.

Absolutely! In fact, here's a rather insightful article on the sad history of the jitney in the 1910s. Just imagine how cities and suburbs would have evolved if the jitneys hadn't been regulated out of existence. It's also quite a condemnation of how city governments work and who they serve (hint: not us). Keep this in mind the next time you hear Uber being vilified. They may not be a model citizen corporation, but I applaud what they're doing and hope they win their battle.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

Also just for the record...people DO want walkable neighborhoods. There's a reason why there is a "walkable" score assigned to residential properties on Zillow. I'm with PS, I don't think most people enjoy driving. It's actually a pretty lousy living arrangement to have to get into a car every time you leave your house. You can thank city governments in the first half of the 20th century for forcing this arrangement on us.

[Mountaineer]

Ahhh, just wait until you retire and don't have to endure the stress of having to be somewhere not of your choosing. Driving can be fun when you do not have to engage the heathens in rush hour traffic. A slow mountainous two lane back country drive is beautiful - think Going to the Sun road in Glacier NP or SR 20 through the North Cascades without the summertime tourist traffic. I take back roads whenever I can, which is most every day whether going to the grocery store, church, the gas station, to a local eatery, or to visit friends. Keys to a fun drive, in my opinion, are being able to take your time, a great friend or spouse for a front seat companion, and a pleasurable vehicle that has personality. I've had many vehicles in my life ... the ones with no personality were boring mushy rides even when driving only a couple miles.

[Maddy]

Ahhh, just wait until you retire and don't have to endure the stress of having to be somewhere not of your choosing. Driving can be fun when you do not have to engage the heathens in rush hour traffic. A slow mountainous two lane back country drive is beautiful - think Going to the Sun road in Glacier NP or SR 20 through the North Cascades without the summertime tourist traffic. I take back roads whenever I can, which is most every day whether going to the grocery store, church, the gas station, to a local eatery, or to visit friends. Keys to a fun drive, in my opinion, are being able to take your time, a great friend or spouse for a front seat companion, and a pleasurable vehicle that has personality. I've had many vehicles in my life ... the ones with no personality were boring mushy rides even when driving only a couple miles.

Ah, SR 20 through the North Cascades! My absolute favorite--and, apparently, a favorite of many long-distance bicyclists and motorcyclists. You pass through so many completely different terrains, maybe one distinct ecosystem per hour, so the drive is constantly presenting something new and interesting. I love going through the lush part of Western Washington, stopping in Winthrop, the spectacular high country with 10-foot snow berms lining the highway and the phenomenal views of the river below. Even love the town of Omak, which is known for the fact that the names of over 50 percent of the local businesses somehow include the word "Stampede." (Okay, I'm exaggerating.) The town of Republic, on the eastern side of the mountains, was one that I seriously considered moving to.

All this discussion about self-driving cars makes me think of that horror movie from the '70s in which a bunch of semi trucks get minds of their own and go on a murderous rampage.

[dualstow]

Keys to a fun drive, in my opinion, are being able to take your time,

Hey, are you that guy with the left turn signal flashing all day?

[Kriegsspiel]

Union cheers as trucks kept out of U.S. self-driving legislation



"It is vital that Congress ensure that any new technology is used to make transportation safer and more effective, not used to put workers at risk on the job or destroy livelihoods," Teamsters President James P. Hoffa said in a statement, adding the union wants more changes in the House measure.

Strong dichotomy game.

[Mountaineer]

Ahhh, just wait until you retire and don't have to endure the stress of having to be somewhere not of your choosing. Driving can be fun when you do not have to engage the heathens in rush hour traffic. A slow mountainous two lane back country drive is beautiful - think Going to the Sun road in Glacier NP or SR 20 through the North Cascades without the summertime tourist traffic. I take back roads whenever I can, which is most every day whether going to the grocery store, church, the gas station, to a local eatery, or to visit friends. Keys to a fun drive, in my opinion, are being able to take your time, a great friend or spouse for a front seat companion, and a pleasurable vehicle that has personality. I've had many vehicles in my life ... the ones with no personality were boring mushy rides even when driving only a couple miles.

Ah, SR 20 through the North Cascades! My absolute favorite--and, apparently, a favorite of many long-distance bicyclists and motorcyclists. You pass through so many completely different terrains, maybe one distinct ecosystem per hour, so the drive is constantly presenting something new and interesting. I love going through the lush part of Western Washington, stopping in Winthrop, the spectacular high country with 10-foot snow berms lining the highway and the phenomenal views of the river below. Even love the town of Omak, which is known for the fact that the names of over 50 percent of the local businesses somehow include the word "Stampede." (Okay, I'm exaggerating.) The town of Republic, on the eastern side of the mountains, was one that I seriously considered moving to.

All this discussion about self-driving cars makes me think of that horror movie from the '70s in which a bunch of semi trucks get minds of their own and go on a murderous rampage.

Maddy, you gave me a flashback. My wife and I stayed in Republic one night a few years ago. I remember watching from our restaurant booth a large deer meander across the street. Nice town. And the movie, was that the one Dennis Weaver was in? Probably not as I only remember one truck coming after him.

Edit: Have you gone to Leavenworth at Christmas time? Fantastic lighting of the town - but throngs of tourists and the traffic gets really heavy. The drive up Tumwater canyon on Rt 2 is another pretty drive.

[dualstow]

Just saw this, though it's already a few years old - http://inhabitat.com/hamburg-announces- ... -20-years/

I admit I am a fan of this from time to time - https://www.reddit.com/r/RoadPorn/