Trump and Syria

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dualstow
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by dualstow »

TennPaGa wrote:
dualstow wrote:Well, kbg, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

...Sometimes the best and most accurate explanation really is the simplest one.
Out of curiosity, what are you referring to here?
I mean there are a lot of terrible acts which I wouldn't put past the CIA, past, present and future. However, a "false flag" chemical attack is not one of them.

Assad, on the other hand, has shown himself to be an A1 despot with no regard for human life, starting with his own subjects. It's Assad.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Why oh why am I getting into this again?

Occam's razor...look it up. Wikipedia does a nice job. The public discourse would be greatly enhanced if more people applied this in their thinking.

But what few people realize (and I'm serious now) very sophisticated (and unsophisticated) communicators/authors understand that by piling on multiple unproven and unprovable assertions to weave a narrative designed to manipulate, sell stuff or influence they make disproving the narrative nearly impossible. And of course, if it can't be disproven then naturally it "could be" possible. An anti-Occam's razor if you will.

So if someone says "a false flag operation by the CIA" on a website, busting out my Occam's razor I'm going with clueless liar who's trying to generate click revenue by selling conspiracy porn.

I'll bet if we go to a bookie in Vegas, my odds of being the truth are considerably tighter than the conspiracy porner's.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Of course, deniers fall neatly into one of two categories: uninformed "sheeple" or participants in said conspiracy.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Kbg »

dualstow wrote:Of course, deniers fall neatly into one of two categories: uninformed "sheeple" or participants in said conspiracy.

LOL...helps build the I know the truth superiority complex.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by farjean2 »

Simonjester wrote: as Americans we have a patriotic duty to be skeptical of anything and everything government does. maintaining a representative republic is dependent on a public that has a profound and unwavering mistrust of what government is doing in OUR name..

could everything be what it seems to be on the surface? ..sure.. its possible that a dictator crossed a internationally accepted line (again) gassed his people and the president of the US did the correct thing in retaliating against him...

but we should have questions..
- does this mean trump is or has fallen under the influence of the military industrial complex?
- are we stuck with the neocon nation building foreign policy, and is that really what we should be doing?
- false flags exist for the very purpose of dragging us into conflict. is this one? and if so by who?
- what exactly are our interests in Syria and what is the desired outcome (other than perpetual war)?
- does getting involved in a country with zero good guys and no realistic chance of any appearing on the scene have any chance of success at all?

I have another one to add.

On the list of countries that supported the attack are some in close proximity like Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and also some greatly affected by the refugee crisis like Germany and France. I've heard that those 60 missiles cost over $1 million apiece so I think it would be a good guess that the whole operation cost around 100 million dollars.

Given Trump's campaign and inaugural statements about the U.S. not being the policeman of the world any more because we can't afford it, who is getting the bill for this?

I think we already know the answer to this one and it's not any of those 5 countries listed above.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by WiseOne »

I don't know whether it was Trump falling under the influence of neocon advisors, or some poorly thought out flip-flopping, or even a calculated move to undercut the negative press and Russia investigation. It's pretty clear now that there's no love affair going on between Trump and Putin, and the press on Trump has been more positive than it's ever been.

And dear God I hope no one is thinking of doing any nation building. Haven't we learned the lesson from Iraq? What Saddam did to the Kurds was FAR worse than this one isolated bombing incident, and yet almost no one is saying that the Iraq war was a good idea. The problem is that there isn't one single problem you can take out. The whole region is systemically broken, and it's a fabric of culture, religion, and politics. It can't be fixed with a war. If you "fix" one thing, e.g. take out Assad, then something just as broken if not more will rise up to take his place.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Kbg »

A duty be skeptical and mistrust...interesting premises for being governed. Why would you want any part of a government you inherently distrust?

Sceptical is fine, a wackadoodle inability to deal with facts and weight the preponderance of evidence is not fine. If you are a constitutionalist then you should also fully understand the founding fathers were betting on an educated and informed citizenry and warned repeatedly against the dangers of uninformed mobs.

Personally I find the scariest thing in America today is an utter inability by it appears most people to deal with or incorporate facts that do not conform to their belief system. Combine this problem with a general decline in civility and respect for alternative views and you have the ingredients for disaster. I am way more frightened by this than the military industrial complex. I lived in the Middle East for several years and the reason why it is so screwed up is the above on steroids.
Simonjester wrote:

duty be skeptical and mistrust...interesting premises for being governed. Why would you want any part of a government you inherently distrust?
you wouldn't!
and that is the point.. the entire premise of having checks and balances, of elections, and term limits, of having separate branches of government, is that government is the delegation of power and force.. and those are both inherently corrupting and must be eternally kept in check.. and yes they must be kept in check by a educated and informed citizenry, both of which are in decreasing supply in the age of public education and the Pravda esque media.. between the swallow it whole "it must be true cause they said so" wackadoodles on one extreme and the tinfoil hat "its all lies" whackadoodles on the other there is reality... i suspect it leans more than slightly toward the side of what you are being told is lies/misdirection more than the truth. the inherent danger of power and force makes thinking so the functional default position.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by farjean2 »

Kbg wrote: Occam's razor...look it up. Wikipedia does a nice job. The public discourse would be greatly enhanced if more people applied this in their thinking.
I suggest that you read this before applying Occam's Razor....

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/ab ... ore-628969
This entire episode is filled with absurdities, but when we track them down, we find that they stem from fantastic U.S. government behavior.

It is absurd to suppose that Assad ordered a chemical weapons raid. Why would he do this when he’s been using conventional bombs for years? Why would he do this when chemical weapons are notoriously hard to control and use? Why would he do this when his chemical weapons stock pile has been removed from Syria? Why would he take the risk of being found out? Why would he do this when he’s winning using conventional weapons?

If it is absurd for Assad to have made this happen by his order, what is the explanation? The U.S. has offered no explanation for his alleged behavior. It has offered no motive. A crime typically has a motive.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by dualstow »

Some skepticism is healthy, yes, and the idea of one more prolonged military conflict in one more troubled country sounds as unappealing to me as to anyone.

But, there's a chasm between that kind of expected skepticism or cynicism of government and the false flag stuff.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Kbg »

Trust me, while I think the mainstream story is accurate, I'm totally onboard with the prevailing opinion that we shouldn't get sucked into the Middle East in a big way again. There's no winning there and frankly no compelling reason to be there in size anymore.

However, I don't mind contributing to killing ISIS over there vice them killing us here...and that would happen, Europe is proof enough of that. Small scale, I'm totally good with.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Mountaineer »

TennPaGa wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
stuper1 wrote:
Huh?

Yes, I do believe there is a God the source of all truth.

I didn't vote for Trump. I haven't voted for 30+ years, because politics is a cesspool.

All I'm saying is that some of Trump's rhetoric had me hopeful that he wouldn't be such a tool of the miltary-industrial complex, but I'm much less hopeful of that at this point.
stuper1, sorry if you took me seriously. It was satire with a bit of sarcasm thrown in for irony's sake! I agree with you, politics is a cesspool. Nothing surprises me, well, almost nothing that the swamp critters do in the name of politics. I don't get anymore upset with Trump than I do the NK wacko or screeching Hillary or the press - they just don't seem to be able to help it. Draining the swamp only reveals more bottom feeders. But I still vote. ;)
I'm just as confused as stuper is about your responses in this thread. Well, except that you don't seem to consider the discussion of Trump and Syria to be worthy of a considered response. This is a perfectly acceptable view, of course.

(edited from the original to sound less jerky).
Tenn, first of all, I did not take your original response as jerky. I took it more that I could have been much clearer in what I wrote (my wife frequently tells me that what is very clear in my head is not necessarily clear in the heads of the receiver of my comments). That said, here are a few of my thoughts on the subject of Trump, Putin, politicans in general, Syria, the mainstream media, the alt right media, and the like:
1. It is fun to pontificate on issues.
2. In general, people's preconceived notions have a major impact on those pontifications.
3. In general, many people tend to be reactive and emotion based when hearing of things outside their realm of influence.
My preconceived notions tell me:
4. Be very, very careful about believing any politicians or the media are honorable.
5. To seriously doubt that we know the "real" truth about events in the Middle East.
6. Various factions in the Middle East have been either waring with each other or entities outside of the Middle East for thousands of years. It will not stop until those living there decide to stop it themselves.
7. Islam is not a religion of peace. Basically the muslim message to others is convert or die.
8. Much of humanity believes man is inherently good and endorse the idea that man can solve all problems via science, trying harder, military might, writing news to get others to believe what the writer writes, or negotiating. I think those are pipe dreams.
9. Man is inherently evil and by nature rebels against God and God's will for how He wants us to live.
10. There is such a thing as just war.
11. Resources on this side of heaven are limited.
12. To focus on events that I can do something about. That tends to reduce to taking care of my family's needs and helping my immediate neighbors. I cannot solve all the problems that I am aware of and might feel really bad about. If I donate resources to all those worthy causes I am aware of, I will end up hurting those closest to me, my family and my friends. The same thing applies on a national level.
13. Recognize that even though my pontificating on things outside my sphere of influence is fun and entertaining, it basically comes down to what Shakespeare said, "full of sound and fury and signifying nothing", or in Biblical terms, as the writer of Ecclesiastes puts it, "The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem: “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher. Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”
14. Focus on what is truly important - God, family, my neighbors - the rest is fluff.

Obviously, I do not expect anyone else to hold my view. But my view developed over decades of studying the evidence, thinking, hearing, and doing, is that of a traditional orthodox confessional Christian, a believer in the promises of Jesus, allows me great comfort and freedom. Comfort knowing that no matter what happens to me on this earth, my eternal future will be wonderful. Freedom to use my energy to help my family and my neighbors. In my previous post that was confusing to you and stuper1, I tried to stay out of religion but in order to give you a more complete answer, I can't do that in this post - but since you asked I responded. Religion and politics are inseparable, two sides of the same coin (in my view). Religion deals with the Gospel (what Jesus freely did for us) and politics deals with Law (what we must do because some other entity told us to do it).

So back to the original issue of Trump and Syria - the world is a mess - whether Trump, whether Assad, whether you or me. All one has to do to confirm the world is a mess is to take a short drive and look for the people who don't signal for a turn or cut you off, read the news about the latest catastrophe, visit the closest inner city and watch the drug deals going down, think about the last time you shouted at your spouse or silently cursed your neighbor or coworker for some trivial event, watched some one get humiliated on TV and laughed about it, etc., etc. The answer to the mess is long standing and clear to those who will hear. Unfortunately, all do not hear, and worse yet, only a few want to hear. It is way more fun to ignore my own shortcomings and focus on the shortcomings of others, e.g. Trump, Clinton, CNN, Fox, you name it. So as not to end on a total downer, to make the best of my messy situation and the messy situation of the world, I try to focus on my circle of influence and let the things in my circle of concern alone - as much as my sinful self can. Chill out and stay cool dudes! Happy Palm Sunday. 8)

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by moda0306 »

dualstow wrote:Some skepticism is healthy, yes, and the idea of one more prolonged military conflict in one more troubled country sounds as unappealing to me as to anyone.

But, there's a chasm between that kind of expected skepticism or cynicism of government and the false flag stuff.
Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Signed by every single member of the joint chiefs. This wasn't a contingency either. It was a proposal.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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moda0306 wrote:
dualstow wrote:Some skepticism is healthy, yes, and the idea of one more prolonged military conflict in one more troubled country sounds as unappealing to me as to anyone.

But, there's a chasm between that kind of expected skepticism or cynicism of government and the false flag stuff.
Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Signed by every single member of the joint chiefs. This wasn't a contingency either. It was a proposal.
Anyone who doesn't understand that governments lie to get people to support wars is hopelessly naive.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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moda0306 wrote:
dualstow wrote:Some skepticism is healthy, yes, and the idea of one more prolonged military conflict in one more troubled country sounds as unappealing to me as to anyone.

But, there's a chasm between that kind of expected skepticism or cynicism of government and the false flag stuff.
Have you ever heard of Operation Northwoods?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Signed by every single member of the joint chiefs. This wasn't a contingency either. It was a proposal.
Moda, I think that's an excellent example of the other side of it, why there are a lot of evil deeds I wouldn't put past the CIA. I have heard of it, but I will admit I did not know the joint chiefs had signed off on it.

In our current administration, I would hope for and depend on someone other than our president to reject wacko ideas from the CIA. (And should it come up, yes I've read about MKUltra, yes I know the gov't gave syphilis to black men, yes ... Vietnam...yellowcake uranium..

When it comes to Syria, I don't think we need a pretext to strike. We could have done this long before chemical weapons came into play. It's about not getting involved in another war. It's not about needing justification to attack Syria and degrade Assad's regime.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Just a small follow-up on Northwoods: I'm a heavy user of wikipedia, and I love it warts and all, but there does seem to be significant dissent on the talk page of Operation Northwoods. Supposedly, the U.S. wasn't going to actually kill anyone, but to blow up some empty buildings and an empty ship, and use actors to fake casualties. I don't know whether that's true, but it's easier to believe than the allegations on the main entry.

Maybe one of these days I'll read the Bamford book -- I think it's the one that came out after Puzzle Palace. That's as close as we can get to a primary source, perhaps.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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We cannot volunteer for more wars. We will become destitute. One could argue it's too late already, Iraq broke us. Thanks W.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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ochotona wrote:We cannot volunteer for more wars. We will become destitute. One could argue it's too late already, Iraq broke us. Thanks W.
Thus ends every empire.
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Kbg »

Military expenditures while costly aren't breaking the bank, you can thank healthcare costs for that.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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It's a strange time to be courting a conventional war, with military resources being at an ebb not seen since WWII. And the draft that's being talked about (to supposedly include women): This one totally befuddles me. We're talking about the same generation that can't get through four years of college without "safe spaces?" Good God, would it even be possible to train these people, much less count on them to do anything other than run away?
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Maddy wrote:... And the draft
.... same generation that can't get through four years of college without "safe spaces?" Good God, would it even be possible to train these people, much less count on them to do anything other than run away?
Ha! A very good point.
All these people worried about the election being stolen and then chanting "Not my President." Something tells me those same people would not be willing to serve, even if it means jail time."
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by Maddy »

Well, the jail they're most likely envisioning is far from the reality of the situation. Draft evaders go to Leavenworth.

I expressed my concern for the situation to a friend yesterday. Turns out she has a relative in the military whose job it is to work "attitude adjustments" on certain recruits. She felt confident that the military has the ability to turn any recalcitrant draftee into a soldier through stone cold fear, if nothing else. I've never been in the military, so I can't speak to the efficacy of its techniques, but I suspect that many young people nowadays are so fragile that the military truly would break them.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Regardless of whether or not the Joint Chiefs were willing to actually kill American citizens, the fact that they were unanimously willing to advise a series of false flag attacks on the United States as a pretext for invading a country is pretty chilling. And this is just what we know.

Further, it's just one side of the "danger of permanent war" coin. I would highly, highly recommend reading or listening to a YouTube audio recording of War is a Racket. It was written in 1935 (before a lot of the really nasty CIA stuff) by the previously most decorated, high ranking general at the time.

One need not agree with the social justice left to be completely appalled and disillusioned with almost everything the national security and criminal justice establishment throws our way.
Last edited by moda0306 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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Desert wrote:I think the safe-spaced liberal arts students are a tiny minority. Data would convince me otherwise, but I have yet to see it. One could just as easily focus in on the UFC fighters (also millennials) that are kicking ass in a scary and efficient way never before seen. The country is still full of bad-asses and gun-toters. There is no lack of soldier material. The concentration of wussy-ass snowflakes is mostly in the Fox-watching, couch potato, neocon chicken hawks (as it always has been).
Yes!

Our downfall isn't going to be muslims, millenials, gender-confused snowfakes or "anarchist" Molotov tossers.

It's going to be cheetos, X-Box, 700 channels, spectator sports and climate control.
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Re: Trump and Syria

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moda0306 wrote:
Desert wrote:I think the safe-spaced liberal arts students are a tiny minority. Data would convince me otherwise, but I have yet to see it. One could just as easily focus in on the UFC fighters (also millennials) that are kicking ass in a scary and efficient way never before seen. The country is still full of bad-asses and gun-toters. There is no lack of soldier material. The concentration of wussy-ass snowflakes is mostly in the Fox-watching, couch potato, neocon chicken hawks (as it always has been).
Yes!

Our downfall isn't going to be muslims, millenials, gender-confused snowfakes or "anarchist" Molotov tossers.

It's going to be cheetos, X-Box, 700 channels, spectator sports and climate control.
In other words, "We have met the enemy and he is us". Pogo
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Trump and Syria

Post by farjean2 »

Pat Buchanan is even suggesting it might be a false flag operation. And also asking if Trump has now officially joined the War Party.

http://buchanan.org/blog/trump-enlistin ... rty-126799

Even though I voted for Trump along with most of the people I associate with, I had a sneaking hunch in the back of my mind, based on a lot of the things he said, that he might turn into a warmonger once elected.
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