Figuring Out Religion

[MachineGhost]

Man, Mountaineer, I hope you're posting that stuff tongue in cheek because if you really take that tripe seriously as evidence of flounting your "God's" will, there is no hope for you at all.

What does your "God" have to say about all the non-violent offenders in the world's largest prison population (right here in the good ol' US of A) having butt sex because they're unvoluntarily imprisoned as criminals with no women available? It's all about context, my man. I'm pretty sure Nixon was a True Believer also. See the connection?

[Mountaineer]

Man, Mountaineer, I hope you're posting that stuff tongue in cheek because if you really take that tripe seriously as evidence of flounting your "God's" will, there is no hope for you at all.

What does your "God" have to say about all the non-violent offenders in the world's largest prison population (right here in the good ol' US of A) having butt sex because they're unvoluntarily imprisoned as criminals with no women available? It's all about context, my man. I'm pretty sure Nixon was a True Believer also. See the connection?

MG,

Absolutely I see the connection, we are all, every last one of us, sinners who can in no way shape or form DO God's will perfectly. It is only because of what Jesus DID on the cross that enables our salvation.

Romans 7 address this point quite clearly. Based on what curlew writes, and how he always is quoting Law passages (such as mixed materials), I'm suspecting he got stuck in the Law (either in despair realizing he could not do it, or pride thinking he knew better than God's Word) and did not hear the Gospel and internalize it - again, that is my speculation, only God knows for sure. Or perhaps (the pride thing again) he has no fear of mocking God. Perhaps curlew will choose to explain his motivation for his hatred of God.

And a curiosity question, what specific parts of the previous material I posted (that you refer to as tripe) do you disagree with?

... Mountaineer

Romans 7 (ESV) Released from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

[MachineGhost]

And a curiosity question, what specific parts of the previous material I posted (that you refer to as tripe) do you disagree with?

The obvious slanting and bias against homosexuality using syphilis as an excuse. It reeks of the same kind of stereotypical prejudice from True Believers that occured during the AIDS years. Look at how much egg on their faces they have now.

[MachineGhost]

I have to admit that I laughed out loud at that one, curlew. I can just picture you carefully checking all your clothes. Hopefully at the end of the process you'll begin wearing robes, preferably made of animal skins.

It damn well better not be leopard skin unless its fake from Switzerland! Growl.

[Mountaineer]

I don't have syphilis but I do have psoriasis so now you've got me wondering which law of God I might be violating. Maybe it's the one in Leviticus 19:19 that says not to wear clothes made of two kinds of cloth. I'll have to go through all my clothes and check.

I have to admit that I laughed out loud at that one, curlew. I can just picture you carefully checking all your clothes. Hopefully at the end of the process you'll begin wearing robes, preferably made of animal skins.

I'm thinking with psoriasis, perhaps it's better to just go totally nude 24/7/365 - get rid of everything that could rub sensitive areas. Perhaps zero-bama can write an executive order mandating everyone with an ailment, real or imagined or self-proclaimed, who swings free can do so publically, AND choose what ever bathroom or street they wish to swing free in. Or, he could just move to Italy. http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/08/europe/it ... index.html

[Mountaineer]

Perfect. He's got my vote now!

Difficult choices- Trump, MG or curlew. Perhaps we should write in Molech, current culture's icon.

[MachineGhost]

Hands up don't shoot never happened.

And black lives matter only if a white life shoots them.

(Yes, I'm being facetious.)

[Mountaineer]

Hands up don't shoot never happened.

And black lives matter only if a white life shoots them.

(Yes, I'm being facetious.)

Why? 33.33333% of your statements are true.

[curlew]

Romans 7 address this point quite clearly. Based on what curlew writes, and how he always is quoting Law passages (such as mixed materials), I'm suspecting he got stuck in the Law (either in despair realizing he could not do it, or pride thinking he knew better than God's Word) and did not hear the Gospel and internalize it - again, that is my speculation, only God knows for sure. Or perhaps (the pride thing again) he has no fear of mocking God. Perhaps curlew will choose to explain his motivation for his hatred of God.

Here's my explanation to YOU for why I hate a god I don't believe in.....



(And I think it's really rich that you say I always quote Law passages on the same day you post an article about how Syphillis is the result of breaking God's laws).

[Mountaineer]

Romans 7 address this point quite clearly. Based on what curlew writes, and how he always is quoting Law passages (such as mixed materials), I'm suspecting he got stuck in the Law (either in despair realizing he could not do it, or pride thinking he knew better than God's Word) and did not hear the Gospel and internalize it - again, that is my speculation, only God knows for sure. Or perhaps (the pride thing again) he has no fear of mocking God. Perhaps curlew will choose to explain his motivation for his hatred of God.

Here's my explanation to YOU for why I hate a god I don't believe in.....



(And I think it's really rich that you say I always quote Law passages on the same day you post an article about how Syphillis is the result of breaking God's laws).

Yep, that certainly clears it up ---- definitely PRIDE.

Blessings and peace - you need it desperately.

[curlew]

Romans 7 address this point quite clearly. Based on what curlew writes, and how he always is quoting Law passages (such as mixed materials), I'm suspecting he got stuck in the Law (either in despair realizing he could not do it, or pride thinking he knew better than God's Word) and did not hear the Gospel and internalize it - again, that is my speculation, only God knows for sure. Or perhaps (the pride thing again) he has no fear of mocking God. Perhaps curlew will choose to explain his motivation for his hatred of God.

Here's my explanation to YOU for why I hate a god I don't believe in.....



(And I think it's really rich that you say I always quote Law passages on the same day you post an article about how Syphillis is the result of breaking God's laws).

Yep, that certainly clears it up ---- definitely PRIDE.

Blessings and peace - you need it desperately.

Yes, the reason I rejected Christianity has to be despair, pride, a sinful heart, worshiping a false god, etc. It couldn't possibly be that I looked at the evidence and found the claims of Christianity to be false. So enjoy your fantasy.

What I find really interesting, not to mention almost comical, is that you think I'm mocking God. I'm mocking YOU.

So now I think I've figured out the root of YOUR problem like you have mine. You think you are God.

[MachineGhost]

So now I think I've figured out the root of YOUR problem like you have mine. You think you are God.

We're all made in "God's" image, right? It's just that far too many equate that to worship and kowtowing of a "superior" external force rather than self-responsibility as even a "God' itself must practice. I think a good example of how dysfunctional the former can be is in children who worhsip their parents and eternally try for their love & approval. They turn out pretty fucked up.

[curlew]

So now I think I've figured out the root of YOUR problem like you have mine. You think you are God.

We're all made in "God's" image, right?

God I hope not. If we were all made in God's image we'd be like Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids in a bathtub.

And following that line of thought here is a great blog post....

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... -that.html

But let's not focus on the Old Testament God. God eventually sent his beloved Son (himself?) to die a gruesome death on a bloody cross. So now everything is cool and his wrath is appeased. Glory be to God.

[curlew]

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... quran.html

The blog above is great. I'm just getting started.

Just what is a woman worth any way?

The Bible God appears to have started changing his mind in the New Testament, but it apparently took him a while to get past his ancient attitudes toward women.

[MachineGhost]

So now I think I've figured out the root of YOUR problem like you have mine. You think you are God.

We're all made in "God's" image, right?

God I hope not. If we were all made in God's image we'd be like Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids in a bathtub.

and thats the core failure of post jesus Christianity, they believe in a god made in mans image not the other way around, they have been so convinced their heart is fundamentally sinful, and their reason, corrupted they have settled on faith in a god that tortures and kills for failing to follow "rules" but loves you unconditional, one who generally acts like the worst/batshit craziest parts of humanity..

if you believe we are made in gods image (instead of the upside down Christian version) then the human heart is not sinful and reason is not corrupt and the best of man, is humanity living up to their inner connection to divinity and listening to their heart and their reason... and "sin" is the denial of it...

That's a great point! Completely inverse of how I normally think about a "God". Christians literally worship an idol. They just get around their oxymoronic "prohibition" against idolatry by treating said idol as a "God" instead of a proper prophet as the Muslims do. AFAIK, Muslims never refer to their Allah as Mohammed or vice versa. The joke is on the Jews, but at this point I don't think they really care now other than those Hasidic True Believers.

You really can't conflate the Old Testament "God" with the New Testament "God", though. The former is hand-me-down, rewritten Sumerian origin tablet texts, the latter is "eyewitness" bullshit written long after the alleged deed by cult followers of a Jewish Messianic religion. If you're going to debate with Christians, I would not resort to using the Old "God" against them. They don't literally believe in it anyway, otherwise they wouldn't ignore the nasty, sadistic bits while hypocritically upholding the judgemental bits they want to believe in or enforce on others.

if you believe we are made in gods image (instead of the upside down Christian version) then the human heart is not sinful and reason is not corrupt and the best of man, is humanity living up to their inner connection to divinity and listening to their heart and their reason... and "sin" is the denial of it...

Amen!

[curlew]

If you're going to debate with Christians, I would not resort to using the Old "God" against them. They don't literally believe in it anyway, otherwise they wouldn't ignore the nasty, sadistic bits while hypocritically upholding the judgemental bits they want to believe in or enforce on others.

Not so sure I agree with that. They can say the Old Testament has to be viewed through the lens of the New Testament as though that somehow solves the problem but I hear fundamentalist Christians defending the mass killings and acts of genocide all the time. I think it is completely proper to call them out for this and state what they actually believe. If they approve then we know where they stand. I even heard one famous Christian preacher defend the slaying of the Amalekites to the point of saying that if he were to find one alive today he would be duty bound to kill him.

[Mountaineer]

"Hence those people who would measure God and His works by the standard of their reason are, beyond all endurance, provoking idiots. Because I cannot restore to life the dead, shall it therefore be impossible for God to do it? Take care then, and do not judge God's word and power by your own imagination and ability." - Martin Luther, House Postil, Quinquagesima

.........

Are you Spiritual but not Religious?

http://www.wolfmueller.co/spiritual-not-religious/

With author of Has American Christianity Failed, Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller discusses what’s behind the confession “I’m spiritual but not religious” is the desire to have a god that doesn’t speak. However, we have a God who does speak and His Word is inspired, inerrant, infallible, clear, sufficient and efficacious.

[Maddy]

With author of Has American Christianity Failed, Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller discusses what’s behind the confession “I’m spiritual but not religious” is the desire to have a god that doesn’t speak.

In my experience, it's the mainstream Christians who desire a God who does not speak. They're so busy talking that they couldn't possibly hear God if He were speaking directly to them.

[Mountaineer]

With author of Has American Christianity Failed, Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller discusses what’s behind the confession “I’m spiritual but not religious” is the desire to have a god that doesn’t speak.

In my experience, it's the mainstream Christians who desire a God who does not speak. They're so busy talking that they couldn't possibly hear God if He were speaking directly to them.

Amen to that, they can be more obnoxious than many unbelievers. IMO, the most unloving and in-your-face are former Evangelicals who have rejected their faith and don't wish to live in peace with Christians and anyone else who might disagree with them.

[curlew]

IMO, the most unloving and in-your-face are former Evangelicals who have rejected their faith and don't wish to live in peace with Christians and anyone else who might disagree with them.

Gee, I wonder who Mountaineer might be talking about.

It can't be me because I'm married to a Christian and we get along fine. I also have had co-workers and friends who are Christians and I have no interest in challenging what they believe as long as they don't present it to me in an "in your face" kind of way. If they felt compelled to continually express their views along with the belief that I was going to hell if I disagreed they would be in for a challenge that I consider myself more than ready to meet.

[curlew]

However, we have a God who does speak and His Word is inspired, inerrant, infallible, clear, sufficient and efficacious.

I think that statement is nothing more than a Christian Shibboleth. For those not enlightened about the infallible Word the word Shibboleth comes from this story....

…5The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan opposite Ephraim. And it happened when any of the fugitives of Ephraim said, "Let me cross over," the men of Gilead would say to him, "Are you an Ephraimite?" If he said, "No," 6then they would say to him, "Say now, 'Shibboleth.'" But he said, "Sibboleth," for he could not pronounce it correctly. Then they seized him and slew him at the fords of the Jordan. Thus there fell at that time 42000 of Ephraim.

42,000 killed for saying "Sibboleth" instead of "Shibboleth".

Presumably somebody counted to come up with the exact number killed or else the Bible wouldn't be "inerrant".

[Mountaineer]

God and Others by Scott Murray

In the days of my youth, skeptics used to ask, “Does God really exist?” This is a moot question today. God has long ago been pronounced quite dead. The death of God movement popularized by J. A. T. Robinson is old news. The question being posed today is “Do others really exist?” What I mean is that so many view others as a mere appendage to their own life. The other is only valuable to me if the other can be a source of satisfaction for me. I was saddened while watching an extended family traveling together over the summer. There was one small boy in the group, who was uniformly ignored by the adults but was entertained with a screen full of children’s activities. The child and adults had absolutely no meaningfully human interaction in the three hours I observed them. They were all entertained by the screen. I felt deep grief for that little boy, because he was not getting any human care from those who ought to have cared most for him. The others might as well have not been there. The members of the family were alone together.

Philosophers call the idea that there are no others in the universe “solipsism,” from the Latin word for alone or only, “solus.” Solipsism means that others are at most mental data and definitely not real in a material sense.

This seems contrary to the common sense flow of our culture in which scientism has raised our consciousness about external phenomena, leaving us with the impression that people and things have reality outside of us–“out there.” However, solipsism has become universalized by our practical rejection of a need for interaction with others (“I didn’t hear you. I was listening to my iPad!”). Others have been reduced to mere objects to give us pleasure, an experience of a mental state. Others are not important as persons in their own right, but only as objects that could give pleasure to me. Whether others are “out there” or not is irrelevant (what is called epistemological solipsism), because their existence has been reduced to being the source of my pleasure.

How did we get there in our society? Solipsistic dehumanization grows out of a denial of God’s existence. Culturally, God is dead and without the God who exists outside of me to define humanity, I begin to doubt the reality of other persons. How can we look on the sexual ethics of our time as anything other than a dehumanization of the other where they are merely objects for bestowal of pleasure, not persons in their own right to be honored, loved, respected, and sacrificed for?

What could we say about the assisted suicide culture in which others are encouraged to “off” themselves so we don’t have to deal with the burden of their suffering? No wonder that we are encouraging our aging loved ones to accept early termination of their lives, à la the Hemlock Society. If they are causing us discomfort or not adding to our pleasure, it is better for us if they are dead. The life of the other is no longer seen as sacred, because I am the only one with real life. If there is no God, then I am the arbiter of all things including the value of life; my own and others.

The other is no longer human, but an object. That’s all. We hated the God who wanted to be “for us” in Christ. The God of Jesus Christ comes to give Himself for us, not to demand from us (Matt. 20:28). Luther says, “What help is it to you that God is God, if he is not God for you?” We killed the one who was the crucified, even though He wanted to be for me. With that God dead and gone, now we have demanded that all others be reduced to “for me”–a horrifying irony. How could true humanity flourish under such conditions? With God dead and humanity being put to death, what is left to us? Where shall we go?

We Christians must be aware that our society is in the process of committing suicide, both literally and intellectually. Once things have come apart, we must again be ready to deliver the God who is for us humans and once again give our culture the source of human flourishing. We are so precious to God that He is “for us.” God really does exist and therefore so do other humans.

The Rev. Dr. Scott R. Murray is pastor of Memorial Lutheran Church, Houston Texas, and second vice president of the LCMS.

[curlew]

Culturally, God is dead and without the God who exists outside of me to define humanity, I begin to doubt the reality of other persons.

I think wives do a lot better job of this than God does.

[curlew]

If you're like me and have a lot of time on your hands you might find this 53 minute interview of Richard Dawkins interviewing illusionist Derren Brown as fascinating as I did. A lot of it has to do with how "cold readings" communicating with the dead work and how people buy into it.

The tie-in with religion comes at the end when Dawkins asks Brown how it was he came to be a skeptic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X56Kmbgn6dE

And since it's another rainy day in Florida here's another one about how to give an atheist a religious experience...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51B8MzcxOX0

[MachineGhost]

And since it's another rainy day in Florida here's another one about how to give an atheist a religious experience...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51B8MzcxOX0

What's the TL;DR of the above? An atheist experiences metaphysicality and suddenly believes there is a "God" or that religions are therefore valid?