Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

Did somebody assert that there is not such thing as objective truth?

Yes, MG did.

Specifically, he said that having an open mind means "NEVER being certain about ANYTHING" (emphasis his).

Per your counterexample, we can be certain that 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, MG's notion of an open mind is logically untenable.

Simply being certain of something doesn't mean one has a closed mind. The question is whether that something is true or false.

I'm sure that MG knows that 1 + 1 = 2 and was only speaking in the context of religion, which is the subject of this forum.

I think the kind of certainty he's talking about is the kind that causes one to be believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old because an ancient book says so despite evidence to the contrary or that causes people to fly planes into the side of buildings because they are certain that Allah will be pleased and reward them with 70 virgins in heaven.

In the above (emphasis mine) could you please share the Scripture references that say the earth is only 6,000 years old? Thanks.

... Mountaineer

[Cortopassi]

Mountaineer,

I assume you've probably covered it somewhere in the 300 pages of this topic, just curious, were you always this religious since a child, or did you come onto it over time or all of a sudden?

Religion fascinates me. I want to believe, but I just can't right now in my life. I grew up Catholic. I recall there being so little good ever relating to it growing up and going to Catholic grade school. It was always more "this is the bad stuff that will happen to you if you don't do this..." rhetoric that just pushed me away from it slowly over time and once I got to college, I was done with it. To the big dismay of my mother, who literally thought my children were damned and were going to grow horns and be terrible people if I did not baptize them (I did not and they are fine).

She's learned to live with it as she's gotten older.

Thanks for any answer.

[iwealth]

To the big dismay of my mother, who literally thought my children were damned and were going to grow horns and be terrible people if I did not baptize them (I did not and they are fine).

She's learned to live with it as she's gotten older.

I also grew up Catholic and parted ways with religion long ago.

My 90-year old grandmother had similar fears for my son. After he was born, she asked about baptism and I hesitated, told her I wasn't sure what we were going to do, etc. She resolutely asked "but what if something happens to him?" I felt terrible. Not about my decision but because it was so unfortunate that a 90-year old woman now lives in fear of her great-grandson spending an eternity in hell.

[Cortopassi]

a 90-year old woman now lives in fear of her great-grandson spending an eternity in hell.

That was a major consideration of my current attitude. To think that one event happening or not, when you are days old, can potentially negate a lifetime of good deeds just seems wrong. Or leave you in limbo/purgatory.

I still have my little black book from communion in the crawl space and vividly remember being scared sh!tless in 2nd grade when looking at the section on venial and mortal sins. What a great way to start learning religion and loving God. I truly believe I would be religious right now if it was presented differently when I was younger.

If I look at a current list (I have not vetted this site, bu the list seem plausible) http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php, I am in DEEP trouble!

Apparently excessive wealth has been added, so we may ALL be in trouble if the PP continues to do well.

The Seven Deadly Sins

Anger (Enraged, Wrathful, Irate, Indignant, Feeling or Showing Anger)

Envy (Grudging Desire for Another’s Advantage or Excellence)

Gluttony (One who Eats, Drinks, or Indulges to Outrageous Excess)

Greed (Selfish or Acquisitive Desire beyond Reason)

Pride (Haughty Behavior, Ostentatious Display, Excessive Elation in Your Success)

Sloth (Laziness or Indolence [Insensitive to Pain or Slow to Heal])

Lust (Sexual Desire of an Intense Longing, to an Unrestrained, Sharp Degree)

Excessive Wealth [in March, 2008, Pope Benedict XVI added the 8th Deadly Sin of ‘Excessive Wealth’ to the list of Deadly Sins.]

[Mountaineer]

Cortopassi and iwealth,

I grew up as a Methodist and went to Sunday School and church most every Sunday. Heard all the various accounts about Adam and Eve, Noah, Jacob's ladder, Samson, the prophets, Christ, and the apostles - not much on Revelation. As I remember, the theology was presented rather shallowly, not a lot of meat on the bones. As I reflect back on those years, there was far too much emphasis on the Bible being a guidebook for life (do this, don't do that, moralism) rather than it being a book about Jesus, what he did for us, forgiveness, love, faith, and our desperate need for a savior. Stopped going to church (but never stopped completely believing) when I was around 17 - my reason was I observed the congregation was full of hypocrites, but of course the self-righteous me was not one of them and I knew what was best for me .... Resumed going to church after a gap of 20 years or so when I lost a bet with my wife. Over the next couple of decades I went to church most every Sunday but was just physically present some of that time and not really engaged (Methodist, Episcopal, Baptist, ELCA and a smattering of others). It was probably about 20 years ago when I started to enjoy going to church and participating in Bible studies - I guess hearing the Word proclaimed really did have an impact on me - I heard truth stand out in a world of craziness. When I retired 15 years ago, one of my goals was to become much more knowledgable about religion. Took several classes, read over 100 books including the Bible front to back several times in several different translations, attended Bible studies, ask many questions of several Pastors. I came to believe the LCMS doctrine is the most aligned with Holy Scripture of anything I'd come across. I also believe traditional confessional Christianity (definitely not the TV or megachurch charlatan variety) is the worldview that makes the most sense logically while at the same time having many mysteries that cannot be understood rationally ... but that is the entire point. I've become comfortable with and even appreciate the paradoxes. Note that I have used the word "I" several times; that is not the main thing in my journey. I really do believe that I've traveled a personal path that was just exactly what I needed. Thanks be to God for putting me on and keeping me on that path. To God, all the glory. It is not about me, it is about Jesus and his redemptive work.

And, don't worry about all those deadly sins, every one commits sins and Jesus has you covered; Lutherans do not do guilt. I do understand your comments though, to a person everyone of my Roman Catholic friends has been severely impacted by a large serving of guilt when growing up. Just study the Bible, you will find you are forgiven - it is very clear.

... Mountaineer

[Xan]

curlew, Cortopassi,

Your reactions to the teaching you were hearing (threats, etc) are totally understandable. In fact it's why there was a Reformation. Lawkeeping is NOT the path to righteousness. Accepting that you are forgiven on account of Christ is. And that knowledge of forgiveness, of what you have been given totally apart from your merit, frees you to do good works for your neighbor, that is, to fulfill the law of loving him as yourself, not in order to earn your salvation but in response to having been given it.

Baptism is the method we've been given to clothe ourselves in Christ. It isn't a work we do to earn salvation, it is a means by which our old selves are drowned and our new selves in Christ are born. Baptize your babies!

[curlew]

Yes, MG did.

Specifically, he said that having an open mind means "NEVER being certain about ANYTHING" (emphasis his).

Per your counterexample, we can be certain that 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, MG's notion of an open mind is logically untenable.

Simply being certain of something doesn't mean one has a closed mind. The question is whether that something is true or false.

I'm sure that MG knows that 1 + 1 = 2 and was only speaking in the context of religion, which is the subject of this forum.

I think the kind of certainty he's talking about is the kind that causes one to be believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old because an ancient book says so despite evidence to the contrary or that causes people to fly planes into the side of buildings because they are certain that Allah will be pleased and reward them with 70 virgins in heaven.

In the above (emphasis mine) could you please share the Scripture references that say the earth is only 6,000 years old? Thanks.

... Mountaineer

In the same place it talks about the triune God.

Actually, it's based on a chronology calculated by a fellow named Ussher based on a literal reading of the Bible. Many Christians still believe it today as I am sure you are well aware.

[Cortopassi]

Thanks, Mountaineer and Xan.

[MachineGhost]

That doesn't sound very open at all. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of objective truth. What good is an open mind if, when you stumble upon the truth, you keep on seeking?

A lot of people think they have active open minds when they really just have open minds to the beliefs they already believe in.

[MachineGhost]

I think the kind of certainty he's talking about is the kind that causes one to be believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old because an ancient book says so despite evidence to the contrary or that causes people to fly planes into the side of buildings because they are certain that Allah will be pleased and reward them with 70 virgins in heaven.

l82start handled the strawman well; see his "functional objective truth". All truth is subjective, hence all truth has to be ultimately functional, even currently settled facts such that 1 + 1 = 2 in this universe.

I don't begrude anyone their personal journey to their adopted religious faith (or lack of). I may vehemently disagree with them, but not everyone is cut out for the intellectual complexity when it come to the true nature of reality. Fairy tales, rituals and kowtowing is a far more emotionally comforting than self-responsibility. Religion is a free market, so to each his own.

[Mountaineer]

I'm sure that MG knows that 1 + 1 = 2 and was only speaking in the context of religion, which is the subject of this forum.

I think the kind of certainty he's talking about is the kind that causes one to be believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old because an ancient book says so despite evidence to the contrary or that causes people to fly planes into the side of buildings because they are certain that Allah will be pleased and reward them with 70 virgins in heaven.

In the above (emphasis mine) could you please share the Scripture references that say the earth is only 6,000 years old? Thanks.

... Mountaineer

In the same place it talks about the triune God.

Actually, it's based on a chronology calculated by a fellow named Ussher based on a literal reading of the Bible. Many Christians still believe it today as I am sure you are well aware.

Thanks curlew, I did not think the 6000 year old earth was Scriptural, it seems just another example of man's sinful nature trying to understand the mind of God, best we bless Archbishop Ussher for trying. I think there are a couple of reasons we do not know how old the earth is. First, there is no reference, that I'm aware of, to indicate how long Adam and Eve (man and woman) lived prior to the fall (i.e. no sin means no death) and subsequent curse. Secondly, I believe the geneaologies may be incomplete, based on my study. I just wanted to make sure I had not missed something. Thanks again for responding.

... Mountaineer

[Xan]

That doesn't sound very open at all. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of objective truth. What good is an open mind if, when you stumble upon the truth, you keep on seeking?

A lot of people think they have active open minds when they really just have open minds to the beliefs they already believe in.

They sure do... Looked in the mirror lately?

[MachineGhost]

They sure do... Looked in the mirror lately?

Have you? Last I knew, your fine self be here a Lutheran. How do you reconcile believing in a dogma with having an active open mind?

[Xan]

They sure do... Looked in the mirror lately?

Have you? Last I knew, your fine self be here a Lutheran. How do you reconcile believing in a dogma with having an active open mind?

I never claimed to. I don't think "open mind"s are such great shakes. That's on you to prove. I'm just asserting that you aren't nearly as "open" as you claim to be. For example, you don't seem very open to the idea of an open-minded Lutheran.

[Mountaineer]

They sure do... Looked in the mirror lately?

Have you? Last I knew, your fine self be here a Lutheran. How do you reconcile believing in a dogma with having an active open mind?

I never claimed to. I don't think "open mind"s are such great shakes. That's on you to prove. I'm just asserting that you aren't nearly as "open" as you claim to be. For example, you don't seem very open to the idea of an open-minded Lutheran.

Does anything ever stay in a truly open mind or just pass through to make room for the latest fad? Is one with an open mind open to there being objective truth? Or the existence of things unseen? Or unprovable? How does one with a completely open mind retain information necessary for life? Such as what foods are safe to eat, how to drive a car, how to dress, etc. Words are powerful, choose them carefully.

...Mountaineer

[curlew]

In the above (emphasis mine) could you please share the Scripture references that say the earth is only 6,000 years old? Thanks.

... Mountaineer

In the same place it talks about the triune God.

Actually, it's based on a chronology calculated by a fellow named Ussher based on a literal reading of the Bible. Many Christians still believe it today as I am sure you are well aware.

Thanks curlew, I did not think the 6000 year old earth was Scriptural, it seems just another example of man's sinful nature trying to understand the mind of God, best we bless Archbishop Ussher for trying. I think there are a couple of reasons we do not know how old the earth is. First, there is no reference, that I'm aware of, to indicate how long Adam and Eve (man and woman) lived prior to the fall (i.e. no sin means no death) and subsequent curse. Secondly, I believe the geneaologies may be incomplete, based on my study. I just wanted to make sure I had not missed something. Thanks again for responding.

... Mountaineer

Well Mountaineer and Xan, if that's the kind of stuff they are teaching you over there in the LCMS then y'all need to get out of that liberal organization and find yourself a true Bible believing Church. The Bible clearly states that Adam was created on the sixth day and that he died at the age of 930.

[Mountaineer]

In the same place it talks about the triune God.

Actually, it's based on a chronology calculated by a fellow named Ussher based on a literal reading of the Bible. Many Christians still believe it today as I am sure you are well aware.

Thanks curlew, I did not think the 6000 year old earth was Scriptural, it seems just another example of man's sinful nature trying to understand the mind of God, best we bless Archbishop Ussher for trying. I think there are a couple of reasons we do not know how old the earth is. First, there is no reference, that I'm aware of, to indicate how long Adam and Eve (man and woman) lived prior to the fall (i.e. no sin means no death) and subsequent curse. Secondly, I believe the geneaologies may be incomplete, based on my study. I just wanted to make sure I had not missed something. Thanks again for responding.

... Mountaineer

Well Mountaineer and Xan, if that's the kind of stuff they are teaching you over there in the LCMS then y'all need to get out of that liberal organization and find yourself a true Bible believing Church. The Bible clearly states that Adam was created on the sixth day and that he died at the age of 930.

curlew,

I respectfully suggest that we should interpret Holy Scripture from a Christocentric perspective. It is not good to worship the Bible, as your statement implies; we should only worship the Triune God. Your last sentence is accurate, however it does not discuss the age of the earth. Your point?

Would you concur with this statement?

The Bible
Age of the earth
Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?
A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is. Nor is it the Synod's position that everything in the Bible is to be understood "literally." There is much in the Bible that clearly purports not to be understood literally--but this must be determined by the Bible itself, not by science or human reason. There is nothing in the Bible itself to suggest that the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.
The Synod has affirmed the belief, therefore, based on Scripture's account of creation in the book of Genesis and other clear passages of Scripture, that "God by the almighty power of His Word created all things in six days by a series of creative acts," that "Adam and Eve were real, historical human beings, the first two people in the world," and that "we must confess what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12" about the origin of sin through Adam as described in Genesis 3 (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31). The Synod has also, therefore, stated that it rejects "all those world views, philosophical theories, exegetical interpretations and other hypotheses which pervert these biblical teachings and thus obscure the Gospel" (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31).
At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.)
Numerous books are available that discuss these issues in more detail. One of these is Studies in Creation by John Klotz (1985), available by contacting Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040 or http://www.cph.org), and asking for stock no. 12-3004.

Blessings upon you curlew; my prayer for you is that you return from the dark side and become a joyful person once more (assuming you once were). For the sake of yourself and those around you, enjoy the life and gifts God has given you.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

duplicate post deleted

[Mountaineer]

(i.e. no sin means no death) and subsequent curse.
... Mountaineer

Did Adam & Eve have a dog, cat, goat, etc that was also cursed by their apple transgression? Last I checked, all living things die eventually.

Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?
A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is.

So in spite of all the scientific evidence, the church refuses to take an official position?


Do you have any opinions of your own, or do you just accept as fact whatever LCMS decides is reality?

Pugchief, good questions.

1. The whole creation was cursed - animate and inanimate. Reference Romans 8 below.

2. I evaluate LCMS doctrine (teachings) the same way I approach chemistry, physics, engineering, grammar, logic, etc. I evaluate what the texts say, determine if one text is better or more accurate than other, then make my decision. How do you determine your beliefs and/or make decisions?

3. In the context of your statement about no LCMS position on age of the earth, I'd say it was addressed in the material I presented - they said Scripture does not say what the age of the earth is. In other words, the LCMS deferred to a higher authority, Scripture itself.

... Mountaineer

Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[MachineGhost]

I never claimed to. I don't think "open mind"s are such great shakes. That's on you to prove. I'm just asserting that you aren't nearly as "open" as you claim to be. For example, you don't seem very open to the idea of an open-minded Lutheran.

Wow!

Well, how can I be actively open minded about anyone who believes in a dogma that involves worship and kowtowing to a supposed omniscient entity with no objective evidence to back up its supernatural/miracle claims or its existence as volitional? That is the pure anti-thesis of personal empowerment and being homo sapiens. Just based on common sense and reason about the physical reality we can readily observe, would suggest that kind of paradigm just does not pass the smell test.

I guess what gets to me is why you and Mountaineer and hundreds of millions of others are such masochists. Where does this perverse willingless to submit your entire being come from? And why is it not important that this submission actually be towards a thing that can be verified beyond a reasonable doubt? If I'm going to do something so dastardly de-empowering, I would want to know for absolute sure what exactly it is I am getting myself into.

[MachineGhost]

Did Adam & Eve have a dog, cat, goat, etc that was also cursed by their apple transgression? Last I checked, all living things die eventually.

It wasn't an apple, it was a bananna. No joke. That's why you can't take the Bible literally (especially since its just Sumerian origin stories retold, at least in the Old Testament). Speaking of which...

One can make a claim that the Koran is the most purest religious text than even the Bible or the Torah because Khan Mohammed literally wrote it himself which isn't the case for the other two. So why shouldn't we all be Muslims based on rational inference???

And there are many other religions besides these three Abrahamic ones. Reading 100 books about Christianity is not being actively open minded -- that's just confirmation bias. I think the core problem we have with any True Believers is their closed minded arrogance -- and their utter blindless to such a fait accompli. But kudos to Xan for admitting he's not open minded!

P.S. But death is a disease symptom not a natural state or order. There's actually no biochemical or genetic basis for death to occur other than you don't take in your proverbial car for a oil change, repair, etc.. There's lifeforms that are still alive after tens of thousands of years, mostly fungi or trees. Once we we can do proper "tune ups" to the human body... I envision a pityful future full of a minority subculture of aging religious believers literally dying for their faith while the rest of us majority "de facto immortals" zooms off into outer space and onto more exciting pursuits.

[curlew]

At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.)
... Mountaineer

What a clever trick. Why do you suppose God would want to fool people into believing the earth was older than it really is? I assume that means he created it with the fossil record already intact and everything.

[Xan]

So, MG, it turns out that "open-mindedness", that is, yourself, is your God.

That is the pure anti-thesis of personal empowerment and being homo sapiens.

In other words, what I said conflicts with your religion, which is "personal empowerment" and "being human". You are worshiping yourself.

This is as much a religion as anything else, complete with the accusation you level at us, which is to ignore parts of it that are inconvenient at any given time. viz:

Well, how can I be actively open minded about anyone who believes...

So you're "open-minded" until you're not!

You're far from alone, but it's unusual to find someone willing to admit it. And I'm not saying this makes you a "bad person" or anything; it's just that we have different religions. Different unprovable base assumptions about life, the universe, and everything. But you can't say that you have NO religion or that you have NO unprovable base assumptions.

[curlew]

So, MG, it turns out that "open-mindedness", that is, yourself, is your God.

That is the pure anti-thesis of personal empowerment and being homo sapiens.

In other words, what I said conflicts with your religion, which is "personal empowerment" and "being human". You are worshiping yourself.

This is as much a religion as anything else, complete with the accusation you level at us, which is to ignore parts of it that are inconvenient at any given time. viz:

Well, how can I be actively open minded about anyone who believes...

So you're "open-minded" until you're not!

You're far from alone, but it's unusual to find someone willing to admit it. And I'm not saying this makes you a "bad person" or anything; it's just that we have different religions. Different unprovable base assumptions about life, the universe, and everything. But you can't say that you have NO religion or that you have NO unprovable base assumptions.

I am having a hard time following these mutual accusations between you and MG about who is open or closed minded.

I believe MG has probably looked at the claims of Christianity and rejected them, just as I do (as an ex-Christian).

So what is it that you want him to open his mind to? Is he supposed to read every book written by William Lane Craig and other Christian apologists and /or get a PHD in theology before he is allowed to reject Christianity and not be accused of being closed-minded? Or is it that he is always going to be considered close-minded by you until he becomes a believer (frankly, I suspect that is the case).

[curlew]

First, Christianity is different from all other religions. Personally, I think those belief systems or religions that require doing something to please or appease their god can much more easily result in people doing weird or even evil deeds. Christianity is all about what God has done, is doing, and will do for each of us.
... Mountaineer

It's nice to know I don't have to do anything to please or appease God in the one true religion of Christianity (LCMS version, I presume).

Does this mean I don't have to become a Christian and follower of Jesus?