Fudged Numbers Support Claims of Gender Gap in Salaries

[Maddy]

To both camps, I say: get over yourselves, you are not nearly as important as you think. You are worth nothing more than what someone is willing to pay you and you "deserve" very little. If you don't like where you work, go somewhere else; all will be happier.

Whoa. . . How did this discussion get construed as a pity party? The fact of the matter is that I haven't been anyone's employee for many years and have no personal investment in the matter one way or another. I just find the sociology of the whole thing interesting. Years ago, I moved to the country, became a farmer, and pay myself what amounts to about $4.00 an hour. I'm sure my labor is worth more than that, but there's only so much that people are willing to pay for a cucumber.

[Libertarian666]

In a perfect, 100% efficient world, where the yardstick determining compensation is dependent solely on productivity that is directly related to a firm's bottom line, Libertarian666's theory would be correct.

Unfortunately, none of the above are true. Perception always beats reality, market inefficiencies are often not capitalized on, productivity measures are usually subjective and don't always connect with the bottom line, etc. etc. Maddy's stories are completely believable to me also.

If the world were different, GNP would be many times what it is now. But human nature being what it is, that just ain't going to happen. Case in point: I could leave my job and go elsewhere for a higher salary if I wanted to. For many reasons, some personal and not financially measurable, I don't want to. Starting my own business would be a great solution except that's simply not possible in my field. Maybe one day I'll have had enough of the academic game, and I'll find something interesting to do with the empty storefront down the block.

This is a straw-man argument. The world doesn't have to be 100% efficient for people to capitalize on market inefficiencies, so long as the government does not forbid doing so. All that is required is for entrepreneurs to notice those inefficiencies and take advantage of them.

I assume the reason that you can't start a business in your field is that you are forbidden to do so by government fiat. In that case, then obviously you can't capitalize on such inefficiencies, but such a situation is not an indictment of capitalism, but of government.

If there are purported inefficiencies that no one is taking advantage of, although they are free to do so, then they are either too obscure for anyone to notice (clearly not the case here) or they don't exist.

Period.

[Xan]

Years ago, I moved to the country, became a farmer, and pay myself what amounts to about $4.00 an hour. I'm sure my labor is worth more than that, but there's only so much that people are willing to pay for a cucumber.

Wow! This is more than worth a new thread. Maddy, could you tell us more about this whole story? Reasons you made the switch, pros/cons, what exactly it is you're doing, and why? (Only as much as you're comfortable telling us, of course.)

[WiseOne]

Years ago, I moved to the country, became a farmer, and pay myself what amounts to about $4.00 an hour. I'm sure my labor is worth more than that, but there's only so much that people are willing to pay for a cucumber.

Wow! This is more than worth a new thread. Maddy, could you tell us more about this whole story? Reasons you made the switch, pros/cons, what exactly it is you're doing, and why? (Only as much as you're comfortable telling us, of course.)

+1. Maddy it sounds like you have a great story to tell, and I also would like to hear it, or as much of it as you want to post.

[goodasgold]

I'm sure my labor is worth more than that, but there's only so much that people are willing to pay for a cucumber.

No problem. When the government imposes price controls, it can charge any price it wants for the privilege of buying a cucumber. Just look at the price of sugar!

As another example, I have heard (perhaps someone on this board can verify or refute this) that the price of lamb is very high in the U.S. because of an American tariff on low-cost lamb imported from Australia and New Zealand.

[Maddy]

As far as cucumbers go, it's consumer expectations that tend to set a ceiling. Large supermarket chains have a dirty little secret, which is that they use many produce items as "loss leaders," products on which they intentionally take a loss in order to lure consumers in. They expect to, and generally do, make up the difference on high-margin products. Take corn, for example. Research coming out of the ag schools has shown that the actual cost of producing an ear of corn is something like $0.70 per ear. That's not organic; it's just your basic ear of corn. But people are used to getting corn for much less than that--sometimes as low as $0.10 an ear. That price point sticks in the minds of consumers, who have no idea of the real cost of producing food. Small farmers obviously can't compete with that.

Five years ago, our farmer's markets were bustling. Today, only a handful of farmers show up. With input costs continuing to rise, they just can't make a profit.

[Pointedstick]

Which input costs are rising, and why?

[Maddy]

Which input costs are rising, and why?

I can't think of too many costs that haven't risen dramatically. Machinery, fuel, soil amendments, materials like crop cover, plastic mulch, and bird netting, greenhouse supplies such as shade cloth, organic pest control preparations. And, of course, labor. But the big ones are always land and feed (hay). I'm sure I've heard explanations for various increases, but they're escaping me now. Fuel is something you could debate; it certainly a lot cheaper than it has been over the last few years, but it remains high in the overall scheme of things. The cost of shipping is another big one I failed to mention. Huge, huge increases there. I've heard it said that it is cheaper to ship agricultural products from overseas than it is to get them from one side of the state to the other.

[bedraggled]

Maddy,

Did you read "Living The Good Life" and "Continuing The Good Life?"

They kept no animals and homesteaded into their 90s. I met the wife when she was 91. She had full flexibility and optimal health. He died at 100 and she had a fatal car accident at 95. They were vegetarians.

[Maddy]

Maddy,

Did you read "Living The Good Life" and "Continuing The Good Life."

They kept no animals and homesteaded into their 90s. I met the wife when she was 91. She had full flexibility and optimal health. He died at 100 and she had a fatal car accident at 95. They were vegetarians.

No I haven't, but you've got me interested. I'll have to get a hold of those. Thanks!

[Kbg]

Which input costs are rising, and why?

I don't grow veggies, but farming continues to be a highly competitive unencumbered free market for the most part. I think the biggest challenge for any non-corporate farmer is scale and efficiencies gained therefrom. A great example...my grandfather spent a week or two cutting and gathering hay when my dad was a kid. By the time I was a kid it took a couple of days. Same field now takes a couple of hours...if 2-3 machines show up (we sell it off the stump) it can be done in less than hour. We have the land that has retained its value and much more, but can no longer afford the machinery to do the full monty.

[Maddy]

I have observed the same thing; the economies of scale allow the big agricultural producers to flourish, while the small guys are pushed out of business. It's the Walmart phenomenon.

[Kbg]

I have observed the same thing; the economies of scale allow the big agricultural producers to flourish, while the small guys are pushed out of business. It's the Walmart phenomenon.

Agreed. Supply chain is huge as well. The past couple of years it was awesome to be in the hay business. This year it sucks. The main reason it turned at my locale was longshoremen strikes in CA last year. The Chinese started buying more in Australia...so there is the globalization thing to deal with too. The local dairy farmers are much happier though (who are also my friends). Good for them, not so great for me. But...that's farming. Always has been, always will be.

[Maddy]

This is only a theory, but I suspect that the cause of increased input costs for the small producer has much to do with the widening delta occupied by middlemen. If you're Big Ag and can buy directly from the manufacturer or top-level distributor, I'd guess that your costs haven't risen much at all.

[Kbg]

This is only a theory, but I suspect that the cause of increased input costs for the small producer has much to do with the widening delta occupied by middlemen. If you're Big Ag and can buy directly from the manufacturer or top-level distributor, I'd guess that your costs haven't risen much at all.

Even if they are the same, what you say relatively is true. All things said and done, farming like manufacturing has economies of scale and farming has evolved to take advantage of them. I think small farms of the future are side hobbies or if profitable as an actual main income source fill some type of niche. You just can't compete cost wise with factory farm and animal raising operations. It is what it is. The township I grew up in used to be filled with dairymen. There is one left and he does organic milk.