Figuring Out Religion

[curlew]

Speaking of Figuring Out Religion:

Risk of Collapse at Jesus Tomb Unites Rival Christians...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/world ... .html?_r=0

Amid the rivalry, the unsteady 206-year-old structure, held together by a 69-year-old iron cage, is an uncomfortable, often embarrassing symbol of Christian divisions, which have periodically erupted into tensions. In 2008, monks and priests brawled near the shrine, throwing punches and pulling one another’s hair not far from the tomb where Christians believe Jesus was resurrected.

Add to this the fact that there are at least 4 places claiming to be the tomb of Jesus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus) and I think it paints a perfect picture of Christianity as we know it today.

[Ad Orientem]

Speaking of Figuring Out Religion:

Risk of Collapse at Jesus Tomb Unites Rival Christians...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/world ... .html?_r=0

Amid the rivalry, the unsteady 206-year-old structure, held together by a 69-year-old iron cage, is an uncomfortable, often embarrassing symbol of Christian divisions, which have periodically erupted into tensions. In 2008, monks and priests brawled near the shrine, throwing punches and pulling one another’s hair not far from the tomb where Christians believe Jesus was resurrected.

Add to this the fact that there are at least 4 places claiming to be the tomb of Jesus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus) and I think it paints a perfect picture of Christianity as we know it today.

It's painful to admit this, but I think that only something like the threat of being crushed or buried alive in a building collapse could get the Orthodox and Catholics who share custody of many of the holy sites to cooperate on anything. The acrimonious nature of their relations is a scandal to all of Christendom.

There are at least three heads of St. John the Baptist floating around as well. Holy Sites and relics, especially those going a long ways back, are often the subject of controversy.

[curlew]

It's painful to admit this,

No doubt about that. If there is a more powerful drug in the world than religion I haven't heard of it.

[Mountaineer]

It's painful to admit this,

No doubt about that. If there is a more powerful drug in the world than religion I haven't heard of it.

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Karl Marx.

Today's version - In America, it is sport that is the opiate of the masses. Russell Baker 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Called to Love: Approaching John Paul II's Theology of the Body (http://www.amazon.com/Called-Love-Appro ... 0770435742). It is written with a Roman Catholic perspective, but on this topic JPII's writings live rather within the Biblical narrative and ponder it quite deeply. It addresses many of the topics that come up here, but from a fresh perspective.  I recommend the work (even though I'm not finished with it) to us for some thinking through of how marriage and family and the body itself aren't just an addendum that needs fixing and addressing after salvation, but their restoration IS salvation.

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Karl Marx.

Today's version - In America, it is sport that is the opiate of the masses. Russell Baker 

"… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses." -- Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81

[Mountaineer]

Benefits of being religious (aside from the BIGGEST ONE  ):

http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-morris/ ... y-be-happy

"Highly religious" people are distinctive in many aspects of everyday life, including being “more engaged with their families, more involved in their communities and more likely to report being happy with the way things are going in their lives,” states a Pew Research Center survey.  See link for the full article.

... M

[Mountaineer]

This is one of the more "chilling" discussions I've heard for a while.  Eugenics, Nazism, and today's lack of value for the unborn and the aged.  Ugh! 

http://issuesetc.org/2016/04/15/2-secul ... art-41516/

... M

[Mountaineer]

How Christians have coped through the ages:  "New Testament Christian: Lord give me courage to face this accusing mob."  "Reformation Era Christian: Lord, help me declare your truth despite the cost."  "20th Century persecuted East European: Lord, may we persevere faithfully under these burdens."  "1980's American Christian: Lord, the Audi's been running rough lately. . . .".  "21st Century PP Christian: Really?  Ignoring objective truth is more important to you than a joy filled Sunday morning hearing eternal truth?"

It is not only Christians, however, who are guilty of apocalyptic overstatement.  The reactions of those who dislike and fear traditional Christians, or who wish to harass them out of the public spaces of society are not immune to such over reach.  Equating Fundamentalist Christians to the Taliban or Jihadist Muslims is as inaccurate as it is unfair.  There may be a few Christians in America who want to impose their ideology on other people and society at large, but they are few.  Just as there are at least a few LGBT who want to impose their ideology on other people and society at large.

Freedom and legal rights do not always protect themselves.  Christians need to be vigilant in defending their rights.  But there is no need for paranoia.  Afterall, Jesus has already defeated the enemy.

... M

[Ad Orientem]

For those interested, scenes from the Divine Liturgy (Mass) for Great & Holy Thursday at Christ the Savior Cathedral...

https://youtu.be/0Xnze260gDw

[Xan]

A Blessed Maundy Thursday to you, Ad O!

[Mountaineer]

From the divine right of kings to direct democracy to representative democracy to communism to theocracy, political governance requires a working theology. Exposing the active theology of statecraft is the work Jonathan Leeman has taken up in his book, Political Church: The Local Assembly as Embassy of Christ’s Rule. For Leeman, statecraft is soulcraft—

Throughout the book, Leeman maintains that the consensus between Protestant and Enlightenment thought has produced a confusion that is now eroding the very religious liberty the American founders sought to protect. As the culture wars escalate, so does the possibility the constitutional order established to prohibit religious persecution will actually be used against religious people whose theological beliefs lie outside a rapidly expanding cultural consensus.

‘Churches do not need to take up arms…they only need to oppose the gods upon which a nation’s political and economic institutions depend.’

Herein lies the looming crisis. Sooner or later the cultural consensus will not hold, and decisions must be made. Those decisions (also known as laws) will directly impact and curtail religious belief and expression in the nation. Not naïve to the coming crisis, Leeman believes the answer will not be to simply return “to the Founders or to Locke as a solution to the culture wars.”

Rather, he believes the United States is seeing the fulfillment of the prediction made by George Washington and John Adams of what would happen “should their philosophy of government be inhabited by an unreligious and unvirtuous people.” Why? Because “churches do not need to take up arms against the state in order to pose a threat to the state; they only need to oppose the gods upon which a nation’s political and economic institutions depend.” And oppose them they do.

Emphasis mine.  Read more at:

http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/07/how ... overnment/

... M

[Mountaineer]

Good summary of how being a Lutheran Christian is unique.

Listen to a half hour summary discussion or get the book.

http://issuesetc.org/2016/05/31/2-how-l ... ton-53116/

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

If I call my son and offer the gift of a new car, all expenses paid, to him and he refuses to accept it, is it my fault or my son’s fault that he does not get to enjoy the gift? Is it true the car is real even if he does not see it, or does not accept it? Does my son benefit from the gift if he never hears about it, or that I’m offering it to him?

Every one of us is offered the best gift ever - Jesus and what he did for each of us. The gift is real even if we do not believe in the gift or the giver. We will ALL find out about the gift, some of us before our death, some afterward. Those who do not believe the gift is true, will have eternity to wonder why they rejected the gift. Those who believe the gift is given to them will have eternity to enjoy the gift in the presence of the giver.

Are not gifts wonderful, especially a gift given by one who is merciful and offers each of us the gift regardless of our nature to hate the giver, rebel against the giver, actively badmouth the giver, listen to false givers who give death instead of life, and revel in our own glory and self-gratification?

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

If I call my son and offer the gift of a new car, all expenses paid, to him and he refuses to accept it, is it my fault or my son’s fault that he does not get to enjoy the gift?
.. Mountaineer

Do you tell your son that this is an offer you can't refuse and what you have in store for him if he doesn't accept your "gift"?

[Mountaineer]

If I call my son and offer the gift of a new car, all expenses paid, to him and he refuses to accept it, is it my fault or my son’s fault that he does not get to enjoy the gift?
.. Mountaineer

Do you tell your son what you have in store for him if he doesn't accept your "gift"?

In the context of my story, he would get nothing but my ongoing love and hope that he would at some point, preferably sooner than later, not refuse my gift.

Bad metaphor, but it would be similar to a suicidal person standing on the edge of the roof 200 feet above ground and ready to jump ....... and refusing the gift of my comforting words and outstreched hand to save him from certain death.

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

Bad metaphor, but it would be similar to a suicidal person standing on the edge of the roof 200 feet above ground and ready to jump ....... and refusing the gift of my comforting words and outstreched hand to save him from certain death.
... Mountaineer

But as you stand there with your outstretched hand, YOU are the one that designed the universe in such a way that if he jumps he has an unspeakably awful eternity to look forward to. So I still don't think it's a very good metaphor and doesn't leave you looking like anything more than a tyrant.

This is an interesting thought exercise. Can you really come up with a metaphor wherein God comes out looking not so bad?

[Mountaineer]

Bad metaphor, but it would be similar to a suicidal person standing on the edge of the roof 200 feet above ground and ready to jump ....... and refusing the gift of my comforting words and outstreched hand to save him from certain death.
... Mountaineer

But as you stand there with your outstretched hand, YOU are the one that designed the universe in such a way that if he jumps he has an unspeakably awful eternity to look forward to. So I still don't think it's a very good metaphor and doesn't leave you looking like anything more than a tyrant.

This is an interesting thought exercise. Can you really come up with a metaphor wherein God comes out looking not so bad?

Why do you think it makes the one with the outstretched hand (metaphor for God) look bad if the suicidal person is the one who does the refusing of the outstretched hand gift? Seems to me the consequences are all on the jumper rather than the one offering the saving hand in love, especially when they know the rules (i.e. gravity). Gravity has many positives, e.g. keeps us from floating off into outer space, but also some negatives, e.g. bad consequences for one who ignores it's power. Say more, this is interesing. But, I do agree with you, all metaphors fail if pressed very far.

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

Why do you think it makes the one with the outstretched hand (metaphor for God) look bad if the suicidal person is the one who does the refusing of the outstretched hand gift? Seems to me the consequences are all on the jumper rather than the one offering the saving hand in love, especially when they know the rules (i.e. gravity). Gravity has many positives, e.g. keeps us from floating off into outer space, but also some negatives, e.g. bad consequences for one who ignores it's power. Say more, this is interesing. But, I do agree with you, all metaphors fail if pressed very far.

... Mountaineer

Your God sounds just like "The Godfather", presenting a magnanimous offer that can't be refused. Come to me of your own free will or else face the dire consequences.

What kind of an offer is that?

[Mountaineer]

Your God sounds just like "The Godfather", presenting a magnanimous offer that can't be refused. Come to me of your own free will or else face the dire consequences.

What kind of an offer is that?

The only one that assures all my pain, suffering, ill will, and consternations of this world will pass away, never to be remembered, forever. Can you imagine an earth with only the perfect rightness of everything, all in harmony, all evil gone, forever? No sickness, no crime, no poison ivy, no zika virus, no war, no starving people, no politics, liars or schemers? Pretty good offer in my opinion, but I'm open to hear one that is better. I admit, it is hard to believe that offer of unconditional love, forgiveness and mercy; sounds too good to be true when we look around and see all the chaos of the world around us now. But, that is the offer (gift) that is extended to all.


... Mountaineer

[curlew]

Your God sounds just like "The Godfather", presenting a magnanimous offer that can't be refused. Come to me of your own free will or else face the dire consequences.

What kind of an offer is that?

The only one that assures all my pain, suffering, ill will, and consternations of this world will pass away, never to be remembered, forever. Can you imagine an earth with only the perfect rightness of everything, all in harmony, all evil gone, forever? No sickness, no crime, no poison ivy, no zika virus, no war, no starving people, no politics, liars or schemers? Pretty good offer in my opinion, but I'm open to hear one that is better. I admit, it is hard to believe that offer of unconditional love, forgiveness and mercy; sounds too good to be true when we look around and see all the chaos of the world around us now. But, that is the offer (gift) that is extended to all.


... Mountaineer

Your god doesn't have a good track record creating a world like that, so yes, it is too good to be true.

[Mountaineer]

Your God sounds just like "The Godfather", presenting a magnanimous offer that can't be refused. Come to me of your own free will or else face the dire consequences.

What kind of an offer is that?

The only one that assures all my pain, suffering, ill will, and consternations of this world will pass away, never to be remembered, forever. Can you imagine an earth with only the perfect rightness of everything, all in harmony, all evil gone, forever? No sickness, no crime, no poison ivy, no zika virus, no war, no starving people, no politics, liars or schemers? Pretty good offer in my opinion, but I'm open to hear one that is better. I admit, it is hard to believe that offer of unconditional love, forgiveness and mercy; sounds too good to be true when we look around and see all the chaos of the world around us now. But, that is the offer (gift) that is extended to all.


... Mountaineer

Your god doesn't have a good track record creating a world like that, so yes, it is too good to be true.

curlew,

Please check the tense of my verbs. Consistent with Scripture, the promises for believers to live in the new creation (the way it was intended to be from the get go before man screwed up by wanting to be like God) are for after the Last Day. We are not promised a life free of suffering now, in fact, it is quite the opposite. The ones who promise a life of prosperity and good health now (think Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer), are preaching a theology of glory which is not Scriptural (God's Word). Scripture teaches a theology of the cross, meaning that Jesus died and rose again for us, in our place, taking what we deserve for our rejection of God's ways and giving us his righteousness. Those who believe in his promises will likely suffer for Christ's sake as much of the world hates/rejects/rebels against him and his followers. We all have our crosses to bear.

And, by the way, you keep referring to "my God", he is "our God, the one and only God"; some just don't realize it yet. All will know it on the Last Day. The concept is much like Alpha Centauri and gamma rays and viruses - they existed long before man could detect them or knew they were there. I don't know about you but my body is wearing out, my kids are not perfect, I and my friends do dumb things, wars continue on ad infinitum, hurricanes and tornados still blow, earthquakes happen, and people still go hungry. I'm looking forward with great anticipation for that new heaven and new earth and new perfect body and I'm super glad I'm going to be a part of it.

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

Your god doesn't have a good track record creating a world like that, so yes, it is too good to be true.

curlew,

Please check the tense of my verbs.

I don't know what you mean by that. According to your stated belief, God created (past-tense) the world we now live in, and he will create (future tense) a new one. So what is it about the tense of your verbs that you think I don't understand?

And, by the way, you keep referring to "my God", he is "our God, the one and only God"; some just don't realize it yet.

Simply saying this does not make it so. Even if I were to concede that your god is the one true god, I fail to see how this god is good and worthy of being worshiped. According to the last book in your holy scriptures, your god will inflict the most awful plagues and natural disasters imaginable on those who still refuse to worship him at the end of the age, and yet he supposedly taught us that we are supposed to love even our enemies. Sounds like a case of do as I say, not as I do.

Consistent with Scripture, the promises for believers to live in the new creation (the way it was intended to be from the get go before man screwed up by wanting to be like God) are for after the Last Day.

I've read the story in Genesis and I don't see where "man", screwed it up. If we are to believe this is a true story then it appears to me that one man and one woman screwed it up. Neither I nor the rest of humanity ate from the tree so what kind of warped justice is it to visit suffering on all of creation, not only in this life but for all eternity, according to your theology.

No thanks. I am not interested in the supposed "gift" from your god. I agree with Richard Dawkins that he is "the most unpleasant character in all of fiction".

[Mountaineer]

Your god doesn't have a good track record creating a world like that, so yes, it is too good to be true.

curlew,

Please check the tense of my verbs.

I don't know what you mean by that. According to your stated belief, God created (past-tense) the world we now live in, and he will create (future tense) a new one. So what is it about the tense of your verbs that you think I don't understand?

You said God doesn't have a good track record. I am not talkinng about the present state of things. My previous description about how wonderful it will be is about how it will be after the Last Day. Of course, it was also that wonderful when he created it in the beginning before man screwed up.

And, by the way, you keep referring to "my God", he is "our God, the one and only God"; some just don't realize it yet.

Simply saying this does not make it so. Even if I were to concede that your god is the one true god, I fail to see how this god is good and worthy of being worshiped. According to the last book in your holy scriptures, your god will inflict the most awful plagues and natural disasters imaginable on those who still refuse to worship him at the end of the age, and yet he supposedly taught us that we are supposed to love even our enemies. Sounds like a case of do as I say, not as I do.

You are correct that me saying this does not make it so. But God saying it (which he does repeatedly in the Scriptures) does make it so. God speaks, things happen. I'm not asking you to believe me, far from it. I do suggest you hear the Word and believe Jesus' promises though. I'd love to have you experience the comfort and peace that you could have - no matter how good you think your current life is, there is something better. As for the book Revelation, God will do many things trying to get man to repent and not reject his Word. That message is all over the Scriptures, for example, look at how many chances he gave Pharoah. Look at how many chances he is giving the present inhabitants of earth - we deserve to be wiped out right now because of our rejecting/rebellion against/bad mouthing him. But he waits patiently giving us chance after chance to believe his promises. Our own poor choices, encouraged mightly by Satan (refusing to believe Jesus) are the cause of our pain, not God.

Consistent with Scripture, the promises for believers to live in the new creation (the way it was intended to be from the get go before man screwed up by wanting to be like God) are for after the Last Day.

I've read the story in Genesis and I don't see where "man", screwed it up. If we are to believe this is a true story then it appears to me that one man and one woman screwed it up. Neither I nor the rest of humanity ate from the tree so what kind of warped justice is it to visit suffering on all of creation, not only in this life but for all eternity, according to your theology.

No thanks. I am not interested in the supposed "gift" from your god. I agree with Richard Dawkins that he is "the most unpleasant character in all of fiction".

I personally belive Scriptures are God's inspired inerrant Word. Thus, I believe Genesis is a true account of how everything began, created from nothing by the Triune God. I have not eaten from that tree either. Original sin was one of the most difficult concepts I came to grips with; it took me years to accept. My reason kept getting in the way - e.g. of course that could not happen, no way, I'm an engineer, I'm smart, no way to prove it. You mean I have to just accept God's Word? Gulp! I guess that's what faith is. OK God, you win. I do not want a God that is small enough for me to understand. I finally accepted there are myteries that I'll never understand on this side of the Last Day. Some of those mysteries: virgin birth, resurrection, creating by the spoken word, the real presence of Jesus in the sacrament of the Lord's Table, baptism saves, etc. Another of my obstacles was the resurrection - but after much reading and study, I came to the conclusion that Jesus really did rise from the dead; there is just too much evidence to support his resurrection to be ignored. Even Bart Eherman admits there is documentation external to Scripture that says Jesus existed in a particular time and a particular place. I agree with you that God is a God of Wrath for those who do not believe him, reject him, mock him - thankfully, he is also a God of mercy, love, and forgiveness and provided Jesus to be payment for sin. Personally, I am sure glad that I'm forgiven for Christ's sake for all the stuff I've done and continue to do that is against his will for how I could best live my life and love my neighbors.

There is always hope. Perhaps one day you will join we believers and come to understand how sad I feel for the likes of Richard Dawkins; he and his followers don't know what they are missing.

My comments are in blue.

... Mountaineer

[curlew]

I personally belive Scriptures are God's inspired inerrant Word. Thus, I believe Genesis is a true account of how everything began, created from nothing by the Triune God. I have not eaten from that tree either. Original sin was one of the most difficult concepts I came to grips with; it took me years to accept. My reason kept getting in the way - e.g. of course that could not happen, no way, I'm an engineer, I'm smart, no way to prove it. You mean I have to just accept God's Word? Gulp!

So what you are telling me is that when confronted with reason you are just going to keep spouting the same talking points no matter what. I already get that and it seems pointless even discussing this topic with you so I wonder why I'm doing it. You probably think it is because God is drawing me to the truth but I have already believed many of the things you believe and now reject them. I think the reason I do it has something to do with evolution and the need for humanity to move on from the infantile state of belief in the supernatural - for the purpose of its own survival.

Some of those mysteries: virgin birth, resurrection, creating by the spoken word, the real presence of Jesus in the sacrament of the Lord's Table, baptism saves, etc.

The "real presence" is my favorite because it is an ongoing miracle and therefore testable and falsifiable. Either the wafer and the wine undergo a transformation or they do not and this can be proved by DNA analysis.

I realize that if such a test was performed and it turned out to be just plain old bread and wine this would have no impact on the faithful like yourself. It will be explained that the "real presence" doesn't mean "real" in a scientific sense or that God changed it back before the test because he wants it to remain a mystery. Actually, it will probably be said that it was a sinful thing to do because the Bible says not to put God to the test.

Another testable proposition along the same lines might be whether or not partaking of the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner can lead to sickness and death as the Bible declares. (Does your church give that warning beforehand - it's in the Bible). This would be harder to prove of course.

If DNA analysis did prove there was a transformation then it seems to me this would be the greatest discovery in the history of the world as we would have proof of God's existence and would even have his DNA which I'm sure would be of great benefit to mankind. I would find this quite remarkable myself as it would be totally out of character for the god of the Bible to do something like that.

There is always hope. Perhaps one day you will join we believers and come to understand how sad I feel for the likes of Richard Dawkins; he and his followers don't know what they are missing.

Been there, done that so don't hold your breath. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.