The solution to nearly everything: Working less

[Tyler]

Well, one big reason that work expands to fit whatever technology allows is capitalism.  Specifically, competition.

In a competitive market, it's critically important for a business to be first to market with a new idea.  15-hour work weeks will quickly put you out of business when the competition is willing to give its employees stock options to work 60. 

The idea that work is a zero-sum game that could easily be cut back for the same lifestyle completely ignores innovation. 

[Libertarian666]

Had you asked John Maynard Keynes what the biggest challenge of the 21st century would be, he wouldn’t have had to think twice.

Leisure. In fact, Keynes anticipated that, barring “disastrous mistakes” by policymakers (austerity during an economic crisis, for instance), the western standard of living would multiply to at least four times that of 1930 within a century. By his calculations, in 2030 we’d be working just 15 hours a week.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... k-pressure

Sorry if this article was posted here already; it looks familiar to me.  Anyway, I like the discussion and conclusion.  Why are Americans working themselves to death?  That's rhetorical, I suppose.  We all need to keep up with each other; it's all pride.  Thoughts?

Keynes was just as wrong about this as he was about almost everything else.

As for me, I don't work very many hours any more unless I have a new project that excites me.

Of course, I'm retired, which may explain that! 

[Kriegsspiel]

Keynes anticipated that, barring “disastrous mistakes” by policymakers (austerity during an economic crisis, for instance), the western standard of living would multiply to at least four times that of 1930 within a century. By his calculations, in 2030 we’d be working just 15 hours a week.

It might happen. We could have 15% of the population doing software and robotics work that makes most everyone else obsolete. 15% doing the rest of the paid work, like police, bureaucrats, athletes, etc. 70% more or less unemployed. That would average out to around 15 hours a week per person.

[WiseOne]

If people wanted to maintain the standard of living that existed in Keynes' time, and had the same tax burden, I could imagine that people could do quite well working 15 hours a week.  It's not a stretch to say that 25 hours, or 60% of the work week, are going to pay for the increased taxes and the extra consumption items that we now have access to.  A short list:  big houses with lots of well equipped bathrooms and air conditioning, multiple cars, refrigerators, washing machines, computers, piped in entertainment, and indoor pets.  Then there's the shift in medical care, with healthy people now essentially required to undergo frequent testing and take multiple drugs.

The great side to this, as multiple internet gurus have pointed out, is that early retirement is now possible, meaning that the average over your work years (ages 18 - 67) may well be no more than 15 hours.

[WiseOne]

Desert, I know what you mean about those refrigerators.  I can't stand them either.  Except for maybe the first few weeks, the ice cubes smell like mildew and  the machinery takes up a big chunk of the freezer space.

There is nothing more sad than someone in a cubicle job working those 50-60 hour weeks, trying to fund The American Dream and wondering why the bills keep piling up.  But that's how most people choose to live, using the word "choose" loosely because they don't understand there's an alternative.

[MachineGhost]

Desert, I know what you mean about those refrigerators.  I can't stand them either.  Except for maybe the first few weeks, the ice cubes smell like mildew and  the machinery takes up a big chunk of the freezer space.

That's because they NEVER change the water filter and probably didn't even know there was one.

[dragoncar]

Sure, I work a little more than 15 hours per week and still make enough to save 50% of my paycheck.  I'm not like Tim ferris type, I just cut back my hours at a decent paying job. 

[flyingpylon]

One can choose not to connect a water line to the refrigerator... works just fine.  Of course it's disheartening to pay for functionality you don't need, but that's true of a lot of things these days.

The key to decent ice is to change the filter (as MG said) and use ice frequently (i.e. don't let it sit in there).  If you have kids in the house they will take care of the latter issue.

[Pointedstick]

There are plenty of modern, energy-efficient refrigerators that don't come with ice makers or water dispensers. I bought one two years ago for about $450 and it works great. Uses barely no power, too, contributing to my average monthly electric consumption being below 160 kWh. I could even have gotten it in stainless steel for another $50 or so if I'd wanted to. You just need to know that you're looking for such a thing.

[Tyler]

It's possible that the same level of enthusiasm and creativity can't be bought by spreading said options over double the number of people in return for a more normal schedule.  In other words, the passion to really create something special and enrich oneself in the process might enable or even require crazy hours in the workplace.

Yeah, it's sometimes about passion but far more often about practical business reality.  One example -- I used to design iPhone cases for a living.  On the surface, a simple plastic case is not particularly complicated and if there's a product that could be scaled back to 15 hour weeks, that's probably it.  However, the case business is cutthroat.  Apple is notoriously secretive, and case manufacturers would learn about new products the same day consumers do.  But the precious shelf space at the Apple store was first-come-first-serve.  So there was more than one time when I waited in line for four hours at the local Apple store to get the new iPhone on opening day, boarded a flight to China that night, designed the case on the plane, and basically waited in a hotel (reviewing other products on similar schedules) until the tooling was approved and the product shipped.  Product development is a tough business.  It's true that not all jobs are like that.

That said WiseOne nailed it.  Even though short hours in that line of work weren't particularly practical, the pay was excellent and I saved to the point where I could cut it back to zero.    Just because the consumerism around you tends to scale to full capacity doesn't mean you have to.  I've found happiness to be an independent vector. 

[Pointedstick]

iPhone cases are definitely important, too--especially the tough, tank-like ones. My wife has a now geriatric iPhone 4 protected by a bumper-style case that has been dropped dozens, maybe hundreds of times (her excuse is that pregnancy loosens your joints and reduces your grip strength) but thanks to the case, it's pretty much unblemished. Definitely cheaper to buy a $10 case than multiple $150 screen replacement jobs.

[WiseOne]

Designing iPhone cases is probably more about advertising/attractiveness than it is about being bombproof, because it's about competing for customer's attention on store shelves.  There are parallels to that everywhere. Several aspects (most actually) of my job are like that.  I bet it's not as hectic as you describe 100% of the time though, and if you cut out the face time and other b-s that goes with most jobs, you could do pretty much the same work in about half the time.

[Tyler]

Designing iPhone cases is probably more about advertising/attractiveness than it is about being bombproof, because it's about competing for customer's attention on store shelves.  There are parallels to that everywhere. Several aspects (most actually) of my job are like that.  I bet it's not as hectic as you describe 100% of the time though, and if you cut out the face time and other b-s that goes with most jobs, you could do pretty much the same work in about half the time.

There are two types of case customers -- those who want a fashion accessory and those who want drop protection.  Most companies offer at least one option for both crowds.  The clever ones make cases that do both very well.

Unfortunately, it was that hectic the majority of the time.  I spent at least a third of my time in Asia visiting factories during the day and doing Skype calls at night.  Most trips had about 2 days warning and lasted an average of 2 weeks.  I lasted about 18 months before I decided that wasn't for me.  My life outside of the office was falling apart at the seams. 

FWIW, I've also worked in a bunch of different product development companies before and after that.  Not all were that bad, but most had similar highly compressed schedules.  A lot of it is industry specific.  Consumer products are all super-fast-paced with very few exceptions, as that's just a reality of most product life cycles.  Medical products take years and are much more methodical, although the stakes are way higher and the testing involved is intense.  I once worked with a Dell engineer who was clearly exhausted and depressed -- he showed me his calendar, and it was literally booked solid 7 days a week with meetings during the day, a few blocks of actual work time, and conference calls with factories until 1am.  Being a specialist means never being able to hand off work.

On the plus side, I largely attribute my early retirement to that period of "awakening" to the reality of how a life dedicated to work is not actually your own.  Taking charge and switching gears set me on a far more sustainable and rewarding path.  I learned how to say "no" and accept whatever consequences that implies.  It's a lot easier once you realize you don't really need that water dispenser in the fridge. 

[dragoncar]

I love having an ice maker in my fridge, even though it has leaked three times in the past year (plastic water lines were old and brittle).  how much extra do out really pay for this convenience, amortized out over the life of a fridge?  Cents per day?

[Tyler]

Yeah, having an ice maker in Texas is pretty nice. 

That said, I quickly learned in my California rentals how to make ice with a bowl of water and an ice pick.  Whenever the automatic ice dispenser acts up, I admit I have a renewed fondness for the simpler approach. 

[dragoncar]

Yeah, having an ice maker in Texas is pretty nice. 

That said, I quickly learned in my California rentals how to make ice with a bowl of water and an ice pick.  Whenever the automatic ice dispenser acts up, I admit I have a renewed fondness for the simpler approach.

i used to make ice in trays and dump it in a bucket.  It wasn't difficult, but then I needed an ice pick after the ice melded into a single blob (much more humid climate than I now live).  But ice makers are hardly rocket science.. They are pretty simple devices when you look at them.  My water dispenser just stopped working (suspect frozen line) and I don't really miss it

[Pointedstick]

I put an old-fashioned ice tray in my freezer and now I have enough ice for the one every quarter or so I find myself wanting ice.

[Mountaineer]

On the plus side, I largely attribute my early retirement to that period of "awakening" to the reality of how a life dedicated to work is not actually your own.  Taking charge and switching gears set me on a far more sustainable and rewarding path.

+1+

... M

[jafs]

I put an old-fashioned ice tray in my freezer and now I have enough ice for the one every quarter or so I find myself wanting ice.

Me too - I don't know why that's not good enough.

I'd rather have a less expensive frig that costs less to run, and just get ice from the freezer.

[Tyler]

Seriously, you guys carry the frugality a little too far sometimes, IMHO. You could save money buy doing your laundry with a washboard and tub instead of a washing machine, but why would you?

Yeah, if you're struggling with money the biggest problem generally isn't the ice maker in the fridge but the building you choose to house the fridge in. 

[dragoncar]

You guys just don't like ice that much. My GF goes through 4 trays a day when she is at her house, mostly just [filtered] water with lemon over ice. When she comes to my house, she fantasizes about how wonderful it would be if she had an icemaker at her home like I do.

Change the filter regularly, and the ice tastes fine. The cost of having and running it is minimal. Seriously, you guys carry the frugality a little too far sometimes, IMHO. You could save money buy doing your laundry with a washboard and tub instead of a washing machine, but why would you?

I too love ice.  Nothing is wrong with keeping a tray in the freezer unless you have ice throuhout the day.  There's nothing necessary or frugal about ice, but to me it's one of modern life's great and simple pleasures

[dragoncar]

Seriously, you guys carry the frugality a little too far sometimes, IMHO. You could save money buy doing your laundry with a washboard and tub instead of a washing machine, but why would you?

Yeah, if you're struggling with money the biggest problem generally isn't the ice maker in the fridge but the building you choose to house the fridge in. 

Step 1: buy large, fancy fridge
Step 2: take fridge out of box
Step 3: live in box

[MachineGhost]

I put an old-fashioned ice tray in my freezer and now I have enough ice for the one every quarter or so I find myself wanting ice.

Old fashioned???!!!  I still use those.  The ice is square and not shaped like a stupid half moon and doesn't taste funky.  I doubt I would ever use an ice maker in a fridge bcause I know the filter would be a cheap piece of shit comapred to my RO unit.  The part I absolutely do hate is filling the trays and managing to get them all into the freezer without spilling the water everywhere.  I believe that was the original appeal of ice makers.

I too got used to drinking room temperature water leftover from the pseudo-science days.  However, it is surprising now how much a cold drink actually cools you down physiologically.  Still, I feel the risk of getting tooth pain from the coldness isn't worth the overall hassle, so more often than not I don't bother.

[Pointedstick]

If you like cold water, just keep a pitcher of it in the fridge.

[WiseOne]

That's what I do, except I use a Sigg bottle.  I have ice cube trays for the once or twice a year that I actually want those.

I've also been splurging on sparkling water, and debating getting a soda stream.  The CO2 bubbles feel cold even when the water itself isn't cold, which is kind of neat.