Look Both Ways

[MachineGhost]

And of course there's always the option in such a sanely-designed city of living in a multi-story apartment building with an elevator and a grocery store on the ground floor. They even have these kinds of mixed-use buildings in a lot of American cities.

You're overlooking that small volume, grocery stores like that have items that cost a lot more than suburban grocery stores or warehouse clubs.  Shoppers are extremely price sensitive, unless they're so wealthy that its not an issue, which is pretty much all of the upper class in SoCal who aren't price conscious about their $1.2 million dollar house in the Hollywood Hills.  I think you would actually be happiest with that "no man's land" in-between suburbia and the formal inner city where vertical building is a priority and they still take up entire blocks for your high volume, low-cost shopping convienience.  It's not quite an inner city neighorhood but it is still designed around the automobile with a few lower levels of garage space for parking space (no open lots like in suburbia).

Incidientally, Whole Foods just opened up its first 365 store in Los Angeles this week.  They're getting the message.  Now if something like that was on the bottom level of a small high-rise, it would be wonderful.  But that just doesn't happen.  No, its gonna be in sprawling suburbia, "no man's land" multiple deck shopping mall that you have to drive to get to or in an overcongested inner city with tons of other shops.  I really don't know how people buy a lot of groceries in an inner city.  It seems like a logistical nightmare.

[Pointedstick]

Libertarian666, I think recall that you live way out in the country right now. And it's true that for a living arrangement like that, a car is indeed required for mobility. Without one, you can't get anywhere! But this is not an intrinsic property of freedom; it is merely illustrating the principle that a substantial component of freedom is mobility. Lose your mobility, lose a lot of your freedom. For you, a car represents mobility nearly in totality. But for a person who lives in a proper urban area (large or small) designed for people rather than vehicles, a car may not yield much of a boost to mobility at all. For such a person, a car would not meaningfully contribute to their freedom and may seem undesirable when weighed against the hassles associated with owning one. Even for me, living in a car suburb, a car adds to my freedom less than you might expect, because virtually everything we want or need is within easy walking or biking distance. It all depends on your living situation, it's not a universal thing.

Your idea of easy biking or walking distance seems at odds with the reality of suburban living.

Indeed. Suburban living is designed for cars, not people. Nonetheless, yesterday I walked a mile both directions to pick up about $35 worth of food from a grocery store and bring it home in some bags I brought with me. No car, no bicycle, no backpack, no role cart, none of that stuff needed. Just me and my feet and my bags. Would have been nicer if the walk had only been a quarter of a mile, of course, but still totally doable and it was quite nice in the fresh air and mild breeze. It's not exactly rocket science and it beats getting into your car and driving to the gym for exercise you didn't get because you drove everywhere else.

Let's try this... can you walk to Costco to buy in bulk to save money (well, not their overpriced, low quality meat) and bike/walk back with all those frigging items?  Doubtful.  But situations like that is what is ideal for temporarily leasing a self-roving, autonomous car.

No. But why do we shop at Costco in the first place? To save money. You know what saves more money than shopping at Costco? not owning a car. Costco saves my family about $82/mo (I've calculated and averaged it out). But my all-inclusive monthly car ownership cost (total spent during time of ownership/7 years/12 months) is about $320/mo. This is with a a single boring family sedan and very very reasonable car insurance rates too, not something fancy or multiple vehicles.

I would give up the car and Costco in a heartbeat. Walking to a small locally-owned grocery store every few days sounds great to me. More exercise, more fresh air, more social contact, supporting local businesses, likely fresher foods, fewer credit cards needed (Stupid Costco Amex), fewer subscriptions to keep track of… sounds good to me.

[MachineGhost]

I do understand the differences. I just don't think they matter much, if at all. You can't stop an airplane you're flying on anywhere either. But airplanes are fantastic and allow people to cross the entire continent in just a few hours. For travel across long distances, the ability to make an intermediate stop in the middle of the journey is virtually irrelevant if it's fast enough and someone else is responsible for fuel and maintenance and the like. Long journeys from city to city or country to country simply don't require intermediate stops 99% of the time. And for short journeys--i.e. intercity travel--you can get that with your feet and a high-quality subway system (for large cities that need one). But small cities shouldn't even need a subway. I live in a city of about 100,000 people that spreads out across 103 square miles, for a density of 970 people/sq mi. By contrast, Paris (one of the most beautiful and romantic cities in the world to which where millions of tourists flock every year), has a density of 55,000 people/sq mi! In fact, paris is actually smaller geographically than my city! And Paris is an incredible, unbelievable, super-desirable city. At Parisian density, an entire city with the population of mine could fit into two square miles, which is easily walkable even if you live right at the extreme edge. And right beyond that edge would be the hauntingly beautiful New Mexico desert, right there in all its wildness, available on demand.

A desert is NOT "hauntingly beautiful" -- its dull of color, mostly dead, boring to look at and the reflecting glare of the sun will give you cataracts.  But since you were crazy enough to think you were gonna pull off a Tatooine in the middle of a fracking desert in North Nevada of all hellish places (hell, that is where the damn locusts migrate by the millions!), I'm gonna cut you some slack, Young Luke.

Also, the reality of actually living in Paris as a local is another dystopian dark undercurrent you don't hear much about.  Just like Japan.  Marketing fiction and appearances is for tourists, not locals.

[jafs]

Our town has a population density of about 2600/sq mile, which is dense enough for us.

And, we like the city landscaping as well.

We use our cars, but much less than most people, and that's a good thing too.  Just living in a smaller place allows you to do that - we drive to restaurants, etc. all the time, but don't have to put many miles on the car to do that.

I'm beginning to think that PS has a very idealistic streak, imagining perfect places to live, and the like.  That's fun, of course, but in reality, it's also very good/useful to find the best situation that actually exists and matches your desires.

[MachineGhost]

I'm beginning to think that PS has a very idealistic streak, imagining perfect places to live, and the like.  That's fun, of course, but in reality, it's also very good/useful to find the best situation that actually exists and matches your desires.

I hope he's not becoming unhappy with the Desert Castle Palace he ultimately decided upon.  I wonder how the school situation is down there in the empty, bloody desert.  He may have to home school! 

Still, it could been worse.  He could have picked Hoth Phoenix! 

[dualstow]

  I really don't know how people buy a lot of groceries in an inner city.  It seems like a logistical nightmare.

I'm grateful for the weekly farmer's market, but I admit it's too expensive for many. Whole Foods is too much of a hike so I usually go to the shitty grocery store nearby.

[Pointedstick]

A desert is NOT "hauntingly beautiful" -- its dull of color, mostly dead, boring to look at and the reflecting glare of the sun will give you cataracts.

Deserts ain't all sand, you know. The rest of the southwest isn't as shitty as L.A. and central Nevada

Here are some photos I've taken of the Taos and Albuquerque (not Phoenix, ugh) areas I've lived in:

[img width=600]http://i.imgur.com/yNsxbi8.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i.imgur.com/22yydwb.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i.imgur.com/RWYGKji.jpg[/img]

[img width=600]http://i.imgur.com/dw6hZxl.jpg[/img]


If you don't think those are beautiful, I dunno what to tell ya! 

And yeah, I do actually like where I'm living! Fun weather, beautiful skies and landscapes, a mountain view from my backyard, great neighbors, good schools, low crime, low cost of living, walkable to food and shopping. It's not perfect, but nothing is. That said, I do accept the charge of being an idealist.  But hey, how are you going to create a better future if you can't imagine it? Just because things are good, that doesn't mean they couldn't be better!

[Mountaineer]

Our town has a population density of about 2600/sq mile, which is dense enough for us.

And, we like the city landscaping as well.

We use our cars, but much less than most people, and that's a good thing too.  Just living in a smaller place allows you to do that - we drive to restaurants, etc. all the time, but don't have to put many miles on the car to do that.

I'm beginning to think that PS has a very idealistic streak, imagining perfect places to live, and the like.  That's fun, of course, but in reality, it's also very good/useful to find the best situation that actually exists and matches your desires.

My county is about half that on population density (~1250/sq mile).  Any more than that and I'd say I lived in HELL! 

... M

[MachineGhost]

If you don't think those are beautiful, I dunno what to tell ya! 

And yeah, I do actually like where I'm living! Fun weather, beautiful skies and landscapes, a mountain view from my backyard, great neighbors, good schools, low crime, low cost of living, walkable to food and shopping. It's not perfect, but nothing is. That said, I do accept the charge of being an idealist.  But hey, how are you going to create a better future if you can't imagine it? Just because things are good, that doesn't mean they couldn't be better!

Very pretty and I'm surprised at all the green foliage, but is it like that year round or only in the cooler months?

Anyway, what are the negatives?

[jafs]

I visited Taos a while back, and thought it was beautiful and magical.

Costs a lot to live there, and may be hard to find jobs that pay well (although this was a while ago, it may very well have changed since then).

[Mountaineer]

If you don't think those are beautiful, I dunno what to tell ya! 

And yeah, I do actually like where I'm living! Fun weather, beautiful skies and landscapes, a mountain view from my backyard, great neighbors, good schools, low crime, low cost of living, walkable to food and shopping. It's not perfect, but nothing is. That said, I do accept the charge of being an idealist.  But hey, how are you going to create a better future if you can't imagine it? Just because things are good, that doesn't mean they couldn't be better!

Very pretty and I'm surprised at all the green foliage, but is it like that year round or only in the cooler months?

Anyway, what are the negatives?

The pictures are beautiful.  I have spent a LOT of time in northwestern New Mexico but have not lived there.  My daughter used to live about 35 miles from Grants in the middle of nowhere.  Her husband was a cowboy who worked on the Lee ranch (about a half million acres, give or take, and established in the mid-1800s).  I thought that part of New Mexico had some of the most spectacular night sky panoramas I've ever seen - for those who have never left the east coast, it is unbelievable to realize there are that many visible stars.  The "but" is, where my daughter lived you have to have an appreciation for desert, rock, cholla, flash floods, very low humidity, skin cancer especially if you are fair skinned (the sun can be quite harsh), and a very very laid back life style.  If you want hustle and bustle, a gazillion restaurants and grocery stores on every corner, major league baseball or football, and theatre ..... look elsewhere.  If you appreciate Indian culture, Spanish culture, interesting history, turquoise, silver, Navaho fry bread, friendly people, driving 35 miles for milk and bread, so-so medical facilities, and wide open scenery ... it is the place for you. 

... M

[Pointedstick]

If you don't think those are beautiful, I dunno what to tell ya! 

And yeah, I do actually like where I'm living! Fun weather, beautiful skies and landscapes, a mountain view from my backyard, great neighbors, good schools, low crime, low cost of living, walkable to food and shopping. It's not perfect, but nothing is. That said, I do accept the charge of being an idealist.  But hey, how are you going to create a better future if you can't imagine it? Just because things are good, that doesn't mean they couldn't be better!

Very pretty and I'm surprised at all the green foliage, but is it like that year round or only in the cooler months?

Anyway, what are the negatives?

Evergreens grow year-round, and deciduous trees follow the normal seasonal cycle, losing their leaves in November or so. My fruit trees and oak tree are leafing out right now in the warm spring weather. The greenest month is usually August, during the monsoons, and then it stays very green until about early November. The hard part is getting something to grow in the first place, but once it's alive, the heavy clay soil retains moisture well and keeps it going with little to no irrigation, in my experience.

The negatives (just talking about my city/neighborhood here):
- Few good jobs; most in construction, retail, call centers, government, etc
- Very poor housing quality; most neighborhoods made up of tract houses that need constant maintenance and improvement
- Very low humidity is hard on certain skin types
- Hard to get good seafood or Asian food ingredients
- Wish there were more public trees, awnings, or closer-together buildings to provide more shade to pedestrians
- Termites! They eat everything and my house is made out of termite food oh god it's terrifying WHY DO WE DO THIS TO OURSELVES

[dualstow]

The negatives (just talking about my city/neighborhood here):
- Few good jobs; most in construction, retail, call centers, government, etc

They're all working for Walt!

[Kriegsspiel]

Reading this guys stuff makes me want to live in Europe again.

[dualstow]

From PS's link, I really appreciate this page on Space and Non-Space, which I reached by way of the Suburban Hell page.

Proud that I live on a narrow, European style street myself. They're rare in the States.

[Kriegsspiel]

https://twitter.com/grescoe/status/7203 ... 06/photo/1

[MachineGhost]

Well, that certainly doesn't explain the obesity problem.