Our society is fragile and not well-thought-out

[Pointedstick]

This topic deserves more discussion all on its own. MediumTex coined the phrase and it really hits the nail right on the head. It came up in the context of social tension and a lack of cultural cohesion, but you can see examples everywhere, such as the fragile nature of modern buildings.

Everyone in American society seems to understand this in their own personal way. One of the best expressions of it is popular media, which for the last 15 years or so has veered into either depicting fictional societies with social and economic orders that work well, or reveling in a fetishistic destruction of those that don't. There seems to be a very strong undercurrent of desire in our society to hit the reset button and make something new that actually works.

I don't know where this is going, but historically speaking these feelings rarely find an expression that is positive.

[Mountaineer]

Let them eat cake. 

... M

[Libertarian666]

There is one way of organizing society that doesn't have these drawbacks.

Hint: it's not government.

[WiseOne]

One possible expression of fragility is the recent new heights (or lows) that political correctness has reached.  You can now lose your job if you are heard expressing a sentiment deemed unacceptable by your employer, or by any of your co-workers or students.  I suppose that's not necessarily anything new but its become much more overt and draconian.

For a recent example, I discovered that a negative statement is grounds for firing if someone lower down the chain of command hears it and deems it to be offensive in general (not specifically to that person).  It sounds like this is now the policy, and that to avoid putting yourself in the same position you now have to be ludicrously careful about everything you say to the point where it's likely to interfere with your work.

If the social structure of a work environment is so fragile that a slip of the tongue can cause you to be fired, then you can argue that the social structure effectively doesn't exist, and it's now something imposed from above.  Not a good development in my opinion - especially when you start to ask who the "above" is and why exactly they are given this power.

[Libertarian666]

One possible expression of fragility is the recent new heights (or lows) that political correctness has reached.  You can now lose your job if you are heard expressing a sentiment deemed unacceptable by your employer, or by any of your co-workers or students.  I suppose that's not necessarily anything new but its become much more overt and draconian.

For a recent example, I discovered that a negative statement is grounds for firing if someone lower down the chain of command hears it and deems it to be offensive in general (not specifically to that person).  It sounds like this is now the policy, and that to avoid putting yourself in the same position you now have to be ludicrously careful about everything you say to the point where it's likely to interfere with your work.

If the social structure of a work environment is so fragile that a slip of the tongue can cause you to be fired, then you can argue that the social structure effectively doesn't exist, and it's now something imposed from above.  Not a good development in my opinion - especially when you start to ask who the "above" is and why exactly they are given this power.

I have heard a saying: "You can know who your rulers are by noticing whom you may not criticize".

[Tortoise]

The courts, I suppose. A lot of this censorship and behavior modification is based on cover-your-ass legality. The courts continue to entertain these ridiculous lawsuits, and as a result we have a CYA society.

[MediumTex]

Hypocrisy weakens society.

When it's okay for ghetto dwelling minorities to celebrate violence, racism and misogyny through their culture, but it's NOT okay for poor rural whites to celebrate their culture through Confederate flags and gun ownership (i.e., the legitimate exercise of their First and Second Amendment rights), that sort of thing puts tension on the whole society.

If we want to clean up racism in society in a meaningful way, then let's do it.  If, however, we are going to say that when whites put a Confederate flag on the back of their truck it's racist, but when Ice Cube writes lyrics like these he is just expressing his cultural norms, something is out of whack:

"Bust a Glock; devils get shot. . . .
when God give the word me herd like the buffalo through the neighborhood; watch me blast. . . .
I'm killing more crackers than Bosnia-Herzegovina, each and everyday. . . .
don't bust until you see the whites of his eyes, the whites of his skin. . . .
Louis Farrakhan . . . Bloods and CRIPS, and little old me,
and we all getting ready for the enemy"

[Mountaineer]

1. Tea and crumpets, beer and bratwurst, and everything in between.

2.  So we don't have to make all the number 1 items by ourself.

3.  Check the grocery store for fully stocked shelves and coolers. Likewise for all other material goods.

...M

[Jack Jones]

1. Tea and crumpets, beer and bratwurst, and everything in between.

2.  So we don't have to make all the number 1 items by ourself.

3.  Check the grocery store for fully stocked shelves and coolers. Likewise for all other material goods.

...M

Well said.

[Pointedstick]

Responding to Tenn's post here: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg145067

(Probably a couple of the posts there might fit better here)

The golden era of college education seems to have been the 60s and 70s. Getting a college degree during that era made you unique: you were one out of 10, or one out of 15. College grads were still admired by others and prized by employers. Most of the baby boomer college grads I know did great in their lives and careers.

But they started a trend of saturating society with college grads. I grew up in the millennial generation where 35% of us have some sort of college degree. The jobs our parents had waiting for them are gone, or already filled up with, well, our parents!

A lot of the baby boomer parents of my friends and friends of my parents are depressed. Some of their children did well, some not. The path forward seemed so obvious for them: go to college, that's the guaranteed ticket to prosperity! Maybe it was guaranteed for them, but it certainly wasn't for us. Their advise in many cases was terrible, but they had no way of knowing.

I think a big part of the problem is that there just doesn't seem to be any kind of safe life path anymore. College offers uncertain returns and many opportunities for life-altering mistakes. Academia is clearly full up. Law and Medicine saddle you with so much debt that you'll be living like a pauper for years even with an income that subjects you to the AMT. Government jobs are more scarce. There's no factory job you can fall back on.

What do you do? How do you advise someone in this environment? So much of it is sheer dumb luck. I got a good tech job right out of college largely due to good timing. Nobody else bit; if I hadn't gotten that job, I would have been unemployed with $27,000 in student loan debt living in one of the most expensive zip codes of the country (where my school was located). How can I ethically advise anyone else to follow my path? So many of my classmates who did similar things are still hustling just to put food on the table 7 years after graduation.

How can somebody with average or below-average levels of intelligence, direction, or drive survive in this kind of world? Liberals like to talk up a big game about his societies will be judged by how they treat the least fortunate, and by that measure, ours is pretty rotten to people who could contribute something, anything, if things were arranged differently.

[Cortopassi]

Hell, as a holder of an advanced degree who has stayed in a technical track (but decidedly not a superstar type), *I'm* a loser in my own company's eyes.  And, as such, and being the sole wage-earner in an environment with little growth in pay and no formal pension plan, it is difficult for *me* to feel very optimistic about my own future.  I've had dual-income managerial-track friends shake their heads and wonder how *I* can get by.

Generally exactly my situation.  Except only a BS.  Small company.  Tried management in previous companies, hated it, went back to technical.  Sole wage earner.  Lucky if I get 2-3% a year lately.

WOULDN'T TRADE IT FOR THE WORLD.

I go home at lunch.  Work 40 hours 99% of the time.  No work travel.  Challenging work.  Would I love to have taken the managerial track and be making 2x+ what I make now at a larger company with likely stock options?  NO.  Friends who took that track make a boatload more than me, but hardly see their kids and work like dogs. 

Reminds me of Cats In the Cradle.

[Tyler]

Generally exactly my situation.  Except only a BS.  Small company.  Tried management in previous companies, hated it, went back to technical.  Sole wage earner.  Lucky if I get 2-3% a year lately.

WOULDN'T TRADE IT FOR THE WORLD.

I go home at lunch.  Work 40 hours 99% of the time.  No work travel.  Challenging work.  Would I love to have taken the managerial track and be making 2x+ what I make now at a larger company with likely stock options?  NO.  Friends who took that track make a boatload more than me, but hardly see their kids and work like dogs. 

Reminds me of Cats In the Cradle.

Same with me.  My outlook on work turned the corner for the better when I finally realized that the typical idealized career path is not necessarily in your own best interest.  They call it "compensation" for a reason.  It's important to be honest about what you're sacrificing for that money, and to find the right balance for your own personal happiness. 

That said, I do feel Tenn's frustration with non-management roles as it relates to wages and job security.  Even STEM technical roles are increasingly outsourced or are replaced with cheap H1-B labor, while management tends to protect itself.  So I guess my best advice is to find the work/life balance that makes you most happy while also minimizing your expenses and saving like crazy.  The ultimate measure of success is not to earn the most prestigious managerial title, but to have the financial freedom to leave the rat race altogether. 

[MediumTex]

I think that you guys have the right idea about being skeptical of the Devil and his offers of fame and fortune.

I've always thought that people sold their souls far too cheaply.

I think that it's much easier to live more modestly with soul intact than it is to scamper endlessly around a playing field labeled "Merit" that is refereed by bean counters and idiots.

If you want to read a REALLY good book about what corporate America does to the human spirit, read Earl Shoriss's Scenes from Corporate Life.  I get the chills just thinking about that book.  Over the years it has helped me in many ways to maintain my humanity in my working life.

[Mountaineer]

I think that you guys have the right idea about being skeptical of the Devil and his offers of fame and fortune.

I've always thought that people sold their souls far too cheaply.

I think that it's much easier to live more modestly with soul intact than it is to scamper endlessly around a playing field labeled "Merit" that is refereed by bean counters and idiots.

If you want to read a REALLY good book about what corporate America does to the human spirit, read Earl Shoriss's Scenes from Corporate Life.  I get the chills just thinking about that book.  Over the years it has helped me in many ways to maintain my humanity in my working life.

The song says Johnny won ..... However, I'd say the Devil won, the Father of Lies just used a method to which Johnny was susceptible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgvfRSz ... storpolsen

... M

[WiseOne]

Yes, I'm definitely going to keep this thread in mind as I negotiate the rocks and shoals of the day!

I agree with Tyler - in the end, the best path to reduce work-related stress is to become financially independent.  I'm happy with my job, but the atmosphere can be toxic, plus I'm very conscious that its financial foundation is way too dependent on decisions by the federal government that could best be described as capricious.  So it's safest to assume that the hammer could descend at any time.  I feel bad for my colleagues who draw good incomes but still live paycheck to paycheck.

[Libertarian666]

Responding to Tenn's post here: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg145067

(Probably a couple of the posts there might fit better here)

The golden era of college education seems to have been the 60s and 70s. Getting a college degree during that era made you unique: you were one out of 10, or one out of 15. College grads were still admired by others and prized by employers. Most of the baby boomer college grads I know did great in their lives and careers.

But they started a trend of saturating society with college grads. I grew up in the millennial generation where 35% of us have some sort of college degree. The jobs our parents had waiting for them are gone, or already filled up with, well, our parents!

A lot of the baby boomer parents of my friends and friends of my parents are depressed. Some of their children did well, some not. The path forward seemed so obvious for them: go to college, that's the guaranteed ticket to prosperity! Maybe it was guaranteed for them, but it certainly wasn't for us. Their advise in many cases was terrible, but they had no way of knowing.

I think a big part of the problem is that there just doesn't seem to be any kind of safe life path anymore. College offers uncertain returns and many opportunities for life-altering mistakes. Academia is clearly full up. Law and Medicine saddle you with so much debt that you'll be living like a pauper for years even with an income that subjects you to the AMT. Government jobs are more scarce. There's no factory job you can fall back on.

What do you do? How do you advise someone in this environment? So much of it is sheer dumb luck. I got a good tech job right out of college largely due to good timing. Nobody else bit; if I hadn't gotten that job, I would have been unemployed with $27,000 in student loan debt living in one of the most expensive zip codes of the country (where my school was located). How can I ethically advise anyone else to follow my path? So many of my classmates who did similar things are still hustling just to put food on the table 7 years after graduation.

How can somebody with average or below-average levels of intelligence, direction, or drive survive in this kind of world? Liberals like to talk up a big game about his societies will be judged by how they treat the least fortunate, and by that measure, ours is pretty rotten to people who could contribute something, anything, if things were arranged differently.

This is yet another result of the State's effect on the economy: like rats, what the State takes is nothing compared with what it destroys in the process.

[Mr Vacuum]

Awesome thread, folks. I am always glad to hear practical discussion about the one true path of 4+ yr college vs. the trades or any other options. What do you tell people, indeed.


Thanks for the book recommendation, MT. I look forward to checking it out.

Looking ahead I often wonder, what will it be like in 12 years for my kids? After reading another awesome book, Shop Class As Soulcraft by Matthew Crawford (has anyone read it? Please check it out and report back.) I determined there's going to be a lot of research and thinking to do, and not just which college and what major.  We're saving for college and it seems like a tricky balance to be prepared and get the nice state tax credits now but not end up with too much money stuck in education accounts if they don't go to college. That will be a year by year assessment, I think.

[Pointedstick]

I have two kids and I'm not saving anything for college. I'm saving a boatload in general, but IMHO saving for college is futile. The financial aid system works on a "pay what you can" basis. The more you save, the more you'll have to pay. Because of the staggering cost of college, practically everybody gets some form of need-based financial aid these days; take advantage of it by not saving much, having most of your money in tax-deferred accounts that don't count against your net worth for this purpose, and having a low income when you file (if you can manage it).

I've told this story before, but I have a friend, son of an engineer and a doctor, whose parents saved like $200k for his college education. He got 36 on the ACT and close to 1600 on the SAT (back when 1600 was the max score). Genius, brilliant guy. Incredible fellow. Privileged to know him. Coulda gone to Harvard or Yale. Instead he went to Brandeis, and he was so far above the typical level of the students who apply there that they practically begged him to attend, showering him with perks including a full 100% merit scholarship. He didn't pay a penny! His career prospects weren't meaningfully impacted because last year he graduated from law school somewhere else (a top 10 school I believe) and now has a nice high paying corporate law job. His parents are $200k richer and his only debt came from law school, not his undergrad education.

I have a couple of other interesting stories in the same vein, but the moral is that the "sticker price" of a college education is one that only middle-class suckers pay. The rich can afford it or do tricky things like that, and the poor get need-based scholarships and take out some loans. It's just another way that the middle-class gets particularly screwed.

[Mr Vacuum]

Good points, thanks. I was still planning on being middle class in 12 years, but we'll see. I need to take another look at what it would do to the nest egg to move all the savings there, and look at the details on the net worth calculations. We're currently splitting the college fund between the 529s and a Roth IRA, the latter being a bit of a hedge usable multiple ways. Then again if I get outsourced and haven't saved enough maybe I'll need the 529 to put myself back in school.

[Pointedstick]

IMHO the best thing I can recommend is to just be realistic about your kids' skills. College-wise, whatever your child's academic talent, they can go to a school a tier or two below where they could easily get in and receive a nearly free ride. State schools are often cheap too. Honestly, college is a huge crapshoot. No matter where you go, you might have a great experience or you might have a terrible experience. There's little reason to believe that an education at Swarthmore is automatically worth more than an education at Ohio University. Don't push your kids into higher-tier "reach" schools. You'll be stressing your kid, burning a huge amount of money, and it's likely that the result will be no better. Again it's a crapshoot.

Sometimes your kids are realistic about themselves, which is a minor miracle as far as I'm concerned. I have a cousin who is not that academically gifted, and always resisted his social circle's efforts to push him into better schooling. He always knew he wanted to work with his hands and go into the military, and he now in culinary school, with the goal of becoming the galley chef in the U.S. Navy. Zero debt, instant satisfaction and happiness, already making money and learning useful skills, and a bright future. Another cousin on my wife's side a diesel mechanic making like $90k apparently. There are so many options, you just need to be open to them.

[Tyler]

After reading another awesome book, Shop Class As Soulcraft by Matthew Crawford (has anyone read it? Please check it out and report back.) I determined there's going to be a lot of research and thinking to do, and not just which college and what major. 

Yeah, that's a wonderful book.  It really makes you reevaluate what passes as standard advice when it comes to education and career. 

[MediumTex]

After reading another awesome book, Shop Class As Soulcraft by Matthew Crawford (has anyone read it? Please check it out and report back.) I determined there's going to be a lot of research and thinking to do, and not just which college and what major. 

Yeah, that's a wonderful book.  It really makes you reevaluate what passes as standard advice when it comes to education and career.

The book is basically an extended version of an article by the same name that is available for free online.

It's a terrific article.

[MediumTex]

Another good way to get a good education at the least possible expense is to figure out how many classes you have to take at the Big Expensive School to get a degree, and take the rest of the classes at area community colleges and other inexpensive state schools.

My bachelors degree is from Southern Methodist University, but I only really went there for two years.  The other two years were spread around six other (MUCH cheaper) colleges and universities.

I still finished in three and a half years, so that approach didn't slow me down at all.  It was actually kind of fun putting the pieces together the way that I did.

I even got a "transfer student" scholarship from SMU.

And you know how much law school cost me at the University of Texas?  About $2,000 per semester and I paid a guy $250 a month to rent a garage apartment near campus.  Finishing that up with no debt was easy.  These horror stories about finishing school with massive debt just make me shake my head.  There are easier ways to do it.

[flyingpylon]

The thing about the college financial aid formula is that it weighs income more heavily than assets.  They expect parents to contribute 5.64% of non-retirement assets above the asset protection allowance per year.  Here's a chart that shows the expected family contribution based on income:



Keep in mind that the chart shows EFC based on income only and does not include assets or contributions to retirement accounts (which actually get added back in and drive up your total EFC).  Of course just like the federal tax code there are a boatload of variables, dependencies, and "gotchas" that will affect what you ultimately will pay.

I am by no means an expert on any of this, just a parent with a kid entering 9th grade next year trying to figure it all out before it bites me in the ass.

[Mr Vacuum]

Another good way to get a good education at the least possible expense is to figure out how many classes you have to take at the Big Expensive School to get a degree, and take the rest of the classes at area community colleges and other inexpensive state schools.

My bachelors degree is from Southern Methodist University, but I only really went there for two years.  The other two years were spread around six other (MUCH cheaper) colleges and universities.

I still finished in three and a half years, so that approach didn't slow me down at all.  It was actually kind of fun putting the pieces together the way that I did.

I even got a "transfer student" scholarship from SMU.

And you know how much law school cost me at the University of Texas?  About $2,000 per semester and I paid a guy $250 a month to rent a garage apartment near campus.  Finishing that up with no debt was easy.  These horror stories about finishing school with massive debt just make me shake my head.  There are easier ways to do it.

It sounds like you got zero hassle (and even a lovely scholarship for your trouble) with the mechanics of the transfer then. I like the pragmatism of this approach, plus it really makes you plot your course and not just go for "the college experience," but I wonder how hard would it be for the school to look at your transcript and say, "Well, this this and this course don't quite meet our requirements here at the big school, so you get to take those again here."