Iron is Toxic, Very Toxic -- Avoid At All Costs!

[Pointedstick]

I got some high-quality King Arthur Flour 100% whole wheat flour and gave it a whirl today.  Making good whole wheat bread is a lot harder than making white bread so far. Definitely gonna be a learning curve. The best I can say is that it was hearty.

Knowing more about the subject now I also have to wonder: how is whole wheat flour able to last so long if exposing the germ turns it rancid soon? It's hard to believe this expensive organic frou-frou whole wheat flour isn't filled with preservatives or irradiated germ or something like that, or else by the time I bought it would already be disgusting.

[Gumby]

Gumby,

So what do you think of ketosis?  Is it beneficial to go into it once in a while?  Are the claims about brain health and keto valid? 

Thanks again.

Ketosis is beneficial to do once in awhile—as in intermittent fasting. You go into ketosis any time you don't eat for awhile (overnight, for instance). That's fine and highly beneficial.

However, the claims that you need to spend most of your time in ketosis to obtain a higher level of brain health is complete bullshit. Those who experience mental clarity from ketosis (and it does happen) are likely suffering from a pathogen that cannot thrive on ketones (a brain virus for instance). I suspect the only way these individuals can maintain a clear head is to (temporarily) starve their pathogen.

Keep in mind that the cultures that experimented with higher levels of consciousness (think third eye mind expansion) tended to eat a lot of grains and did not have any interest in spending their lives in ketosis. Even the Eskimos did not spend their lives in ketosis (another low carb myth).

Also, ketosis is believed to produce extremely high levels of (therapeutic) methylglyoxal—a potent inflammatory byproduct (really a signal in the body) and form of oxidative stress that may be able to have antimicrobial properties when levels are high in the blood. The same inflammatory signaling compound is found in some antibacterial/antiviral honeys that are kept on a shelf for awhile (Manuka honey for instance). Therapeutic methylglyoxal may be OK and even therapeutic for some people, but it's the endogenous equivalent of taking a Tylenol chronically. And I'm not even joking about that. Here's a study showed is that chronic ketogenic diets (3 weeks) appear to deplete the liver of glutathione in the same way as taking Tylenol every day.

Ketosis is known to be beneficial for conditions like epilepsy and one theory is that the increased methylglyoxal may help suppress epilepsy.

So, I would consider ketosis to be a viable therapy, and not an ideal chronic state for healthy people.

[Gumby]

I got some high-quality King Arthur Flour 100% whole wheat flour and gave it a whirl today.  Making good whole wheat bread is a lot harder than making white bread so far. Definitely gonna be a learning curve. The best I can say is that it was hearty.

Knowing more about the subject now I also have to wonder: how is whole wheat flour able to last so long if exposing the germ turns it rancid soon? It's hard to believe this expensive organic frou-frou whole wheat flour isn't filled with preservatives or irradiated germ or something like that, or else by the time I bought it would already be disgusting.

King Arthur Flour 100% whole wheat flour is definitely a good start. But, I'm almost certain that it's a reconstituted flour. Don't let that stop you from using it in the short term though. I think it's totally fine to start there. Eventually you may decide to upgrade, though that may introduce more challenges for home baking.

King Arthur Flour Forums: Q&A: Whole meal flour

Whole wheat flour, as most flour companies sell it, is flour that has gone through the modern multi-stage flour milling process and is then reconstituted to the original proportions of bran (around 14.5%), germ (around 2.5%) and endosperm (around 83%) in wheat berries.

Baking with whole meal flour is a bit more challenging, in large part because the moisture content is usually not as well-controlled. (Millers refer to freshly milled flour as 'green flour', and for consistent results several authors including Peter Reinhart recommend letting it age for at least two weeks.)

I may be wrong, but I'd imagine that King Arthur is a "multi-stage" reconstituted process. And I suspect they toss the germ oil (or most of it) to avoid rancidity. Although US millers agree that reconstituted flour should include all aspects of the grain, it's not regulated and the article I posted earlier suggests that the companies do not add the germ oil back in because it promotes rancidity on the shelf. So, while I'm sure that industrial whole wheat is relatively fine (any way better than white flour). The only way to absolutely know you're getting the right components in your flour is to buy it from a single-stage mill (i.e. a grist mill) or grind it yourself (nutramill, handmill, etc). There really are grist mills all over the country. Here's one in Kentucky, for instance. When you can't find grist-mill flour in the store and shipping fees add up, some people just buy their own mills and grind their own wheat berries. (Again, you can experiment with this just by using a coffee grinder).

I store my whole wheat flour in the freezer. Though, some cultures were known to store their whole what flour in large chests for months at a time and I've seen one study that claims that the Vitamin E (known to go rancid) may can stay largely intact for a year.

[Pointedstick]

What's all this about roller milling vs stone milling? One of the articles you recommended implied that roller milling is somehow different and inferior from more old fashioned milling techniques.

I found a local bakery whose owners mill their own flour using a stone mill. Should I be worried about stone dust in the flour?

[jafs]

I got some stone-ground Kamut wheat flour, and it's very interesting - buttery flavor, which is surprising - I made some quickbread with no butter, just olive oil, and if I didn't know that, I would swear it had butter in it!

The question about freshness is interesting to me as well, given how long flour probably spends in transit and on shelves before we buy it.  I hope that the healthier stone ground stuff with all of the elements isn't going rancid - Gumby?

Also, I store the flour in the freezer at home too - seems like a good idea if you're not going to use it up quickly to me.

[Gumby]

What's all this about roller milling vs stone milling? One of the articles you recommended implied that roller milling is somehow different and inferior from more old fashioned milling techniques.

I found a local bakery whose owners mill their own flour using a stone mill. Should I be worried about stone dust in the flour?

As I understand it (and I could be wrong) the aspect that usually gets lost first when engaging in reductionist methodology of nutritional science is the three-dimensional, cellular structure in which nutrients are delivered within a whole food matrix. Usually it accounted for only as a factor in bioavailablity (e.g. carotenoids), but it may have effects far beyond this aspcect. By legal definition, whole grain products are all products made out of unrefined grains. However, the literal meaning would probably be a grain that is not milled to flour but still intact or coarsely cracked. Bread baked from grist instead of flour supposedly has a lower glycemic and caloric load, because much of the starch that remains tightly contained within the cellular structure is indigestible and thus acts as a prebiotic fiber in the large intestine like resistant starch, further improving gut health and overall health.

The roller mill allowed the creation of ultra fine flour that could be easily separated from the bran/germ. Most people think of roller mill flour as being bad due to the fact that it easily creates a refined grain, but it may also be due to the fact that it creates an ultra-fine powder that is too easily digested. So, if you think about it, modern reconstituted whole wheat is that ultra-fine flour with (some of?) the total components added back in. It's way different than just turning wheat berries into grist.

Again, I don't want people to be afraid of industrial whole wheat—it's okay. But real whole wheat grist is a different ballgame.

I don't believe this is just true of wheat. For instance, boiled potatoes are said to have much more satiety and resistant-starch like effects (perhaps due to intact cellular structures) than other forms of cooked potatoes.

[Pointedstick]

So if I got a roller mill and used it on a coarse setting, I'd be milling grain to a larger size and emulating the older stone mill?

[Gumby]

The question about freshness is interesting to me as well, given how long flour probably spends in transit and on shelves before we buy it.  I hope that the healthier stone ground stuff with all of the elements isn't going rancid - Gumby?

Grist mill flour usually has a milled date on it. Some claim that the oils go rancid within 15 days, however I have not seen any research showing this to be true—and in a previous comment I linked to research showing that Vitamin E (mainly what's believed to go rancid) can largely intact for a year at room temperature.

I wouldn't stress about it. I generally purchase grist mill flour within a month of it being milled and I store it in the freezer for a month or two. The label from the mill says it's fine for 6 months at room temperature, but I dunno. Use your nose. If it smells bad, don't use it.

If you are serious about it, you can always grind your own. Many people swear that there is nothing like the taste of freshly ground flour. I might be inclined to get a mill that doesn't make superfine flour though.

Keep in mind that I don't believe that occasional white bread consumption will kill you. The French eat a lot of unenriched white flour with much fewer health issues than we do (though they have some more health issues than we do, like very high colon cancer). The trick is that if you eat a pure nutritionless food, you need to rely on French traditions in order to counter-balance the losses from the refined flour (beans, chocolate, seeds, liver, etc.) Luckily your body will crave these things when the flour is unenriched, because you'll have no other option to obtain those nutrients. Enrichment just kills those traditions because when you eat enriched food, your body has no reason to crave those superfoods to make up for the white bread.

Whole wheat just makes it easier in the sense that you don't have to think about traditional pairings. Having said all that, I do think whole wheat is far superior to white bread, given all of its complete compounds and structure.

[Gumby]

So if I got a roller mill and used it on a coarse setting, I'd be milling grain to a larger size and emulating the older stone mill?

I dunno. I haven't researched mills yet (because I have access to a local old-fashioned grist mill). But I suspect that you'd be in good shape, if for no other reason than you're getting the whole grain (structure aside). We should look into this a bit more before making any major purchases.

I've seen a simple handmill somewhere that is cheap and is the somewhat equivalent of an old stone mill.

[Gumby]

Btw, on iron. In 2012, the NYTimes touched on the little known issues with iron overload that is starting to be noticed by researchers.

NYTimes: A Host of Ills When Iron’s Out of Balance

It didn't go into any detail, but if you like Kresser, he had an amazing presentation on the research covering iron issues:

Chris Kresser: Iron Behaving Badly: The Role of Iron Overload in Metabolic Disease

Really an amazing video if you have time to watch it.

And it's not just metabolic issues that have been tied to iron. Cancers, heart issues, vascular issues, brain issues. The research is still being done, and will continue to be done for years to come.

Keep in mind that just because too much iron getting into the wrong place plays a role in these diseases doesn't mean that iron is the sole "cause" of these diseases. For instance, some researchers have noticed that certain bacteria either in the gut or in the organs may promote diabetes. Well, iron is known to bloom pathogens—they feast on it. Another example... cancer cells are known to feast on iron and iron overload is indeed linked to cancer (mentioned in the NYTimes article).

But for all we know, iron may just be a promoter of these diseases, not a direct cause in the same way that having gasoline in your house doesn't "cause" a fire but it certainly will make the fire a lot worse once the fire is lit. Think of this as controlling iron homeostasis (and keeping iron in balance with other compounds) rather than being afraid of eating iron.

This is simply about getting rid of the excess gasoline you don't need.

[jafs]

Thanks - that's pretty much what I thought as well.

Macrobiotic folks prefer to use whole grains in less processed forms than flour, for much the same reasons that you cite.  I eat a lot of brown rice and other whole grains in natural form, but don't want to do without some flour-based foods.

I'm sure that buying grains and grinding them yourself is the best way to do that, but it is a lot more work.

[Gumby]

I'm sure that buying grains and grinding them yourself is the best way to do that, but it is a lot more work.

I used to think it was "more work" but it's really no different than grinding your own coffee. It's kind of funny to think that people pay more attention to their coffee than their wheat—despite the fact that most people consume far more wheat than coffee. Anyone want to start a new baking thread? I'd definitely like to learn more about the baking/grinding side of this equation.

[moda0306]

We should have a thread on false anti-life-hacks.

Aka, things that we would intuitively think "take too much time and effort," but really prove to either be well-worth-it considering all the cost savings or benefits, or simply that the effort is all up front and can get amortized over a long time and therefore aren't really a big time-commitment.

I feel like there are a ton of "best-practices" for life that we forego because we only look at their time and money and mental energy cost in a vacuum, and don't reverse out all the time, money and mental energy we are already using to make that area of life work that we could then forego.

For me, deciding to eat healthier has actually simplified my life. Organic, grass-fed meats, wild fish, rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes, lots of seasonings, eggs and a very small amount of dairy, acids and sauces, a couple healthy fat options for cooking, and trying to include as many vegetables as possible is actually far-simpler than the litany of options and rationalizations, expiration dates, side effects and sacrifices I have to make when I keep pizzas, slimy sandwich meats, pasta dishes, various cheese types, freezer meals, boxed and canned stuff galore in my catalogue of common options.

I'm not saying my diet is perfect or doesn't include those other items at all, but it's amazing how being intentional and digging into things can yield relatively basic answers when all is said and done.

Like the PP!

[jafs]

I'm sure that buying grains and grinding them yourself is the best way to do that, but it is a lot more work.

I used to think it was "more work" but it's really no different than grinding your own coffee. It's kind of funny to think that people pay more attention to their coffee than their wheat—despite the fact that most people consume far more wheat than coffee. Anyone want to start a new baking thread? I'd definitely like to learn more about the baking/grinding side of this equation.

It's the fact that you eat a lot more wheat than coffee that makes it more work, isn't it?

Grinding a couple of teaspoons of coffee occasionally is pretty easy and not very time-consuming, while grinding pounds of flour to make bread takes a lot more time and energy.

And, baking your own bread is also pretty time consuming, although there's a lot of "down time" while the dough is rising.

It's a very good thing, health wise and also economically, but it is more work/time than just getting a loaf of bread at the store.

[Gumby]

It's the fact that you eat a lot more wheat than coffee that makes it more work, isn't it?

Grinding a couple of teaspoons of coffee occasionally is pretty easy and not very time-consuming, while grinding pounds of flour to make bread takes a lot more time and energy.

And, baking your own bread is also pretty time consuming, although there's a lot of "down time" while the dough is rising.

It's a very good thing, health wise and also economically, but it is more work/time than just getting a loaf of bread at the store.

Nobody really grinds a whole pound of flour at one time if they have their own grinder. What would be the point if you were always after "fresh" flour? Same thing with coffee—you just grind what you need at any given time for a fresh cup of coffee. Bulk grinding is for people who maybe don't care about fresh (or need tons of flour).

Yeah. I agree that making your own food is "more work" than buying a loaf at the store. That isn't what I meant. What I meant was that grinding your own flour vs buying a bag of flour isn't really that much more work. I mean, most people don't consume an entire bag of flour in one meal or loaf. If you're going to bake some cookies, make pancakes, or a bake a loaf of bread, you need a cup or two of flour. Dumping a few ounces of wheat berries into a coffee grinder isn't that much different than, well, grinding a few ounces of coffee beans.

It's the baking and making actual food that's "harder." lol

[jafs]

Well, 2 cups of flour is a pound of flour, from online conversions.

And, that's what a lot of bread recipes use - last time I made bread from scratch, I think that's how much I used for a loaf.

But, it's silly to argue about it - if people don't find it to be too much extra work/time, more power to them.  My sister-in-law did it for a while, but stopped (I imagine she got tired of doing it).

Do you use wheat gluten to get the whole-grain breads to rise a bit more?  I haven't used that, but am considering it if I try to bake bread again.

[Gumby]

Well, 2 cups of flour is a pound of flour, from online conversions.

Huh? What kind of lead-weighted flour are you using? The average cup of flour is 4.25oz. Therefore, 2 cups of flour would be a half-pound of flour.

1 Pound = 16 ounces.

Anyway my point was to not conflate the use of flour vs the actual baking of bread. Two different things. Even if you don't grind your own flour, baking bread is work either way. (I mainly use flour for making pancakes/waffles/pasta anyhow).

[jafs]

You're right - I forgot that we were doing a volume/weight conversion - my bad.

But, still, a lot of bread recipes call for 3-3 1/2 cups of flour, which gets you pretty close to a pound of flour.

I looked up grain mills for fun, and it's interesting - looks like the manual ones are pretty cheap, but may not work that well, and the electric ones that are well reviewed are pretty expensive.  The cheapest I found was about $200.

If you're not baking bread, then it makes sense you'd use a lot less flour.

Why don't you get a mill and check it out for a while, and then let us know how you like it 

[Gumby]

Why don't you get a mill and check it out for a while, and then let us know how you like it 

I just have no need at the moment. My local Whole Foods sells local grist mill flour for ~$10 for a 5Lb bag (it's ~$8 at the mill). Amazon sells 5Lb bags of high quality wheat berries for ~$10. So, hard for me to justify it.

I believe VitaMix makes a grain blade/container, but I have no idea if destroys any aspects of the grain or not (probably not worth worrying about). But, again, I have no need.

[jafs]

I was joking - didn't the smiley face tip you off?

[Gumby]

I was joking - didn't the smiley face tip you off?

Wasn't that funny I guess.

[MachineGhost]

Yes, wheat has toxins, but if you have a healthy gut and you cook the wheat (don't eat raw wheat) most people (not all) will thrive on it. The problem is nobody really eats real wheat.

That's just too simplistic.  Gliadin/gluten damages the permeability barrier -- without exception.  Only the degree of severity is what is variable.  And I'm pretty sure we don't have any long-term studies about lower grades of damage accumulating over long periods of time time.  So, it's still like Russian Roulette in my book.

I even tried sprouted spelt flour.  Same reaction as wheat, only much less severe (tunnel vision, brain fog, headache).  If you kept at it the symptoms could eventually abate because of the hormetic tolerance and addiction effects.  But that doesn't make it a good food to be eating in my book.

[MachineGhost]

So, eggs and cheese. 6 or 7 slices of real whole wheat bread per day. Some fruit/veggies. A little bit of butter. Raw milk. A small amount of meat with dinner. Pretty normal SAD diet, but focussed on real foods and whole grains.

Have you noticed all the farmers of raw milk seem to be cows err... overweight/obese fatties?  "Real" food or not, there's still a lot of simple carbs and crazy amounts of hormones intended for baby cows in raw milk and raw cheese that humans don't need to be ingesting.

[MachineGhost]

The new ceramic nonstick stuff is rather promising, I think. It's applied using a sol-gel process, and there's no organic compounds in most of them. No fluorine crap that gives you cancer and makes you glow in the dark. My parents have an amazing set by some German company--Greblon, I think. Ceramic nonstick that's lasted for years and years with no damage, and it's light as a feather, too. Not cheap, of course.

Why do you keep rehashing this topic over and over?  I pointed out inexpensive ceramic coated pans using Greblon last year.  One more time:

http://www.amazon.com/3-Piece-Ozeri-Tex ... 0068SEQJE/

[MachineGhost]

I think he's very smart. I like him. But I think he is looking at sick people with chronic health issues and maybe extrapolating those issues and the results he finds onto others. For instance, Kresser believes that gluten is bad for you. But he cannot explain why historical medical texts overwhelmingly claimed that gluten was the most important and healthiest ingredient of any food.

Seriously?  It's the same mentality as when they declared cigarettes were good for you.  It's lack of evidence and herding behavior.  So this doesn't qualify as scientific justification for ingesting gut damaging gluten!