Thoughts on gay rights?

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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow »

Mountaineer wrote: I agree with the first comment re. your two cents.  My question is why do we think that? 

And for your second and third comments, why do we (the Imperial we) not stand up for our fellow human beings, regardless of their color, religion, sexual inclination, or IQ when they are being mistreated?

... M
Why do we think that? For some, it feels natural. For others, they were taught, "do unto others..."

Answer to second question: some do stand up, some don't. It's largely a question of laziness these days, and not fear, like it used to be.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Greg »

I haven't read up enough on the history of marriage as to whether it was initially and fully considered a religious practice over a civil (government) practice. I myself consider it a religious practice where I am unified into one flesh with an opposite gender person, and that once you're put together, it's really ugly to pull it apart, and you can't ever fully rip it apart. Stuff lingers (especially if you had kids with that person).

I would rather propose since it seems like the debate is more about rights, is that I liked the idea of civil unions. I think that if you promise yourself to another person, there should be a box you can check for taxes for filing jointly as a civil union, should be able to give them death benefits, and any other items that the government gives to married couples. They could even wear rings signifying that they have made a commitment to another person. Just don't have them say that they are married, because that word has a set of meanings behind it that for myself at least, assumes then they are a heterosexual person married to another heterosexual person.

If the government wants to give them equal rights (and I agree with this), then let them. But don't call it marriage, otherwise the word "marriage" really starts to lose its meaning.

A really good example of this is the word "gentlemen" which I learned about from the C.S. Lewis book "Mere Christianity".

http://glenn.typepad.com/news/2003/08/c ... n_the.html
The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said - so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully - "Ah but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?" They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man "a gentleman" in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is "a gentleman" becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A 'nice' meal only means a meal the speaker likes.) A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.
Don't let "marriage" become a useless word.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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If civil unions grant all of the same legal rights/privileges as marriages, then that's fine with me.

But the ship has sailed, with the latest SC ruling - gay and lesbian people now have the right to get "married".
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow »

All words change, Greg. Lord used to mean breadwinner and lady used to mean bread-kneader. Awesome and terrible both used to mean striking fear into beholders. Nice used to have a bad meaning. Girl used to mean boy, believe it or not.

You can still say landed gentry if you miss 'gentleman', but it looks like rights trump semantics and linguistics when it comes to the word 'marriage.'
Simonjester wrote: civil unions should grant all the same rights..
the ship has sailed ... for now .... it may come back around if polygamists, pedophiles, animal lovers and the incestuous decide that they have rights to marriage as well,

its not so much the drift in meaning that irks me as the shift in meaning by government decree, if gays can adopt the time honored tradition and only disrupt the "man + woman" part of the tradition, i have no problem seeing the word gradually and naturally come to be used to describe what they do..
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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I mean is anything really being take away from us heteros? Maybe I can't "prove" my straightness by wearing a wedding ring anymore. I can live with that. The whole Sean Hannity type argument that marriage is being destroyed by this new inclusive definition just doesn't ring true.
Simonjester wrote:
TennPaGa wrote:

+1

To paraphrase William F. Buckley, I am unclear as to how the marital status of the first 2000 gay people in the Manhattan phone book has any bearing on my own marriage.
it has no bearing at all... except that since the meaning of the word has been changed by law and not gradual adoption of new more inclusive meaning, there is a bit of an anything goes, if this can be forced to change, so can everything else about marriage, feel to the whole thing...
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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I think if one understands the intent and context of the word "rights" as used by James Madison in describing religious rights, one is very hard pressed to use the term "gay rights" ... I do not think there is any such thing; perhaps others see it differently.  Now, if you just want to say "I want all people in the United States to be able to marry, have sex including sodomy with whomever they want as long as both parties agree, and everyone must celebrate it and be quiet if they disagree, and my opinion is more important than those who disagree with me", that is a different thing than rights.  :o

... M

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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Mountaineer wrote: I think if one understands the intent and context of the word "rights" as used by James Madison in describing religious rights, one is very hard pressed to use the term "gay rights" ... I do not think there is any such thing; perhaps others see it differently.  Now, if you just want to say "I want all people in the United States to be able to marry, have sex including sodomy with whomever they want as long as both parties agree, and everyone must celebrate it and be quiet if they disagree, and my opinion is more important than those who disagree with me", that is a different thing than rights.  :o

... M

Image
In my view, we're discussing rights in the context of our society, which is based on the fundamental idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Until the 1960's, interracial marriage was outlawed in some states, and then the SC held in Loving vs. Virginia that marriage is a fundamental right, and that states couldn't deny that right to interracial couples.  Many of the arguments against interracial marriage were the same arguments that are made today against gay marriage.

It seems to me that extending the right to gay and lesbian people is a clear and logical next step in the process.

You're free to condemn homosexuality and nobody needs you to "celebrate" it.  You can have whatever opinions/reactions to your fantasies about gay/lesbian sex as you like.  If you want to believe that gay and lesbians are going to Hell forever after they die, you can believe that.  You and others who believe as you do can go to a church that supports that belief.  If you don't like gay or lesbian people, that's your business - nobody's forcing you to be friends with them.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow »

Well said, jafs.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Thanks  :D
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell »

This article talks about the roots of the word "marriage."  I can't copy and paste some parts of it from my phone, but the whole marriage ceremony was created as a rite of passage for agreeing to reproduction and creating a family.  That's why the marriage consummation has meaning and "matrimony" relates to the concept of motherhood.http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2 ... rticle_top

Now of course today lots of people are having sex before marriage, but quite recently it was the general expectation that if a young man accidentally got a girl pregnant, the honorable thing to do was marry her. 

Yes words change over time but I still would like to see the word maintain a lot of its original definition.  To me, marriage is one of the most wonderful and important aspects of my life.  Since gay marriage was legalized, my marriage still has just as much meaning of course, but if fifty years from now the word becomes meaningless, I think that would be sad for future generations.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by dualstow »

I hear what you're saying, Michelle. At the same time, I am a guy married to a woman and we have no plans to have children. So, I guess we're defiling the definition just as much as any same-sex couple.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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dualstow wrote: I hear what you're saying, Michelle. At the same time, I am a guy married to a woman and we have no plans to have children. So, I guess we're defiling the definition just as much as any same-sex couple.
Well, in today's world a lot of people aren't having kids for many valid reasons, and because of birth control people don't feel the necessity to stay virgins until marriage and also find it very easy to not have kids if they don't want to. 

It just depends on which traditions we want to hold onto.  Brides wear white traditionally to symbolize their virginity at the time of the wedding ceremony, even though we know probably most of them these days aren't virgins.  But the roots of the marriage ceremony were as the base of the family.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I think if one understands the intent and context of the word "rights" as used by James Madison in describing religious rights, one is very hard pressed to use the term "gay rights" ... I do not think there is any such thing; perhaps others see it differently.  Now, if you just want to say "I want all people in the United States to be able to marry, have sex including sodomy with whomever they want as long as both parties agree, and everyone must celebrate it and be quiet if they disagree, and my opinion is more important than those who disagree with me", that is a different thing than rights.  :o

... M

Image
In my view, we're discussing rights in the context of our society, which is based on the fundamental idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Until the 1960's, interracial marriage was outlawed in some states, and then the SC held in Loving vs. Virginia that marriage is a fundamental right, and that states couldn't deny that right to interracial couples.  Many of the arguments against interracial marriage were the same arguments that are made today against gay marriage.

It seems to me that extending the right to gay and lesbian people is a clear and logical next step in the process.

You're free to condemn homosexuality and nobody needs you to "celebrate" it.  You can have whatever opinions/reactions to your fantasies about gay/lesbian sex as you like.  If you want to believe that gay and lesbians are going to Hell forever after they die, you can believe that.  You and others who believe as you do can go to a church that supports that belief.  If you don't like gay or lesbian people, that's your business - nobody's forcing you to be friends with them.
Much of what you say is reasonable.  However, I think you may have missed my point about Madison's letter.  He discusses inalienable rights.  Inalienable rights are universal, not dependent on a country or Constitution, and originate with our Creator.  I think you are discussing privilege.  They are not the same thing in my opinion.  Of course, you are free to disagree with our founding father, as well as with me.  ;)  History is gradually being rewritten to reflect the mores of our current culture.  Why not do the same with the Constitution as amended?  Perhaps there is a job on obama's staff for you.....  just kidding.  Anyway, an interesting discussion with many different perspectives.

... M
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Some believe in inalienable rights that originate with God.

You're free to believe in those if you like.

I find that without societies, the whole notion of "rights" doesn't make any sense or apply - creatures are born, live and die in various circumstances in nature.

Even in our founding documents, the notion of inalienable rights is prefaced by "We hold these truths to be self-evident" - that means they couldn't prove them or derive them from obvious observations.  It's just another way of saying "We believe".  There's nothing self-evident about the idea of natural rights, or rights given by God.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Mountaineer wrote:
jafs wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I think if one understands the intent and context of the word "rights" as used by James Madison in describing religious rights, one is very hard pressed to use the term "gay rights" ... I do not think there is any such thing; perhaps others see it differently.  Now, if you just want to say "I want all people in the United States to be able to marry, have sex including sodomy with whomever they want as long as both parties agree, and everyone must celebrate it and be quiet if they disagree, and my opinion is more important than those who disagree with me", that is a different thing than rights.  :o

... M

Image
In my view, we're discussing rights in the context of our society, which is based on the fundamental idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Until the 1960's, interracial marriage was outlawed in some states, and then the SC held in Loving vs. Virginia that marriage is a fundamental right, and that states couldn't deny that right to interracial couples.  Many of the arguments against interracial marriage were the same arguments that are made today against gay marriage.

It seems to me that extending the right to gay and lesbian people is a clear and logical next step in the process.

You're free to condemn homosexuality and nobody needs you to "celebrate" it.  You can have whatever opinions/reactions to your fantasies about gay/lesbian sex as you like.  If you want to believe that gay and lesbians are going to Hell forever after they die, you can believe that.  You and others who believe as you do can go to a church that supports that belief.  If you don't like gay or lesbian people, that's your business - nobody's forcing you to be friends with them.
Much of what you say is reasonable.  However, I think you may have missed my point about Madison's letter.  He discusses inalienable rights.  Inalienable rights are universal, not dependent on a country or Constitution, and originate with our Creator.  I think you are discussing privilege.  They are not the same thing in my opinion.  Of course, you are free to disagree with our founding father, as well as with me.  ;)  History is gradually being rewritten to reflect the mores of our current culture.  Why not do the same with the Constitution as amended?  Perhaps there is a job on obama's staff for you.....  just kidding.  Anyway, an interesting discussion with many different perspectives.

... M
I think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying.  According to you, gay people have had the same rights as anyone else, before all this recent gay rights activism started.  For example I have recently worked with a teacher who is gay.  She has always had the same rights as any heterosexual woman (right to vote, work, etc.).  She also got married, had a son, divorced her husband, and then fell in love with a woman and promised to commit to her.  She has the freedom and the right to do that.  There was no "right" that other women have that she hasn't had in her life.

However these recent gay "rights," according to you are not rights at all.  They are rather a pushing of those choices upon the rest of us.  We have to redefine the word "marriage" now to suit their interests.  As far as discrimination goes, that can get very muddy as well, as was the case with the bakery.  If adoption agencies don't want to adopt to gay men, could they be sued for discrimination when in actuality most of the gay male couples who apply are seen as less fit parents than heterosexual couples? 

I think that's your angle there, but correct me if I'm wrong please.  Yes it is an interesting discussion. 
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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It's not true that gay and lesbian people had the same rights.

They didn't have the right to marry someone they loved and wanted to marry.  There are also other rights that gay couples didn't have, for example, some states have laws that mandate only family members can be designated as health care proxies, which means that even if a gay or lesbian couple wanted to designate their significant other to make those decisions for them hospitals could just ignore that because of state laws, even if the couple had a signed/notarized statement.

This argument was used to justify bans on interracial marriage and found to be incorrect by the SC in the 1960's.  Everybody's free to marry somebody of their own race, so everybody has equal rights.

And nobody's forcing any choices on you - you're free to be heterosexual, married, etc. as you like.

The bakery case isn't muddy to me at all - there is an anti-discrimination law in Oregon that specifically prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and the bakers broke that law.

If couples aren't fit to be adoptive parents, they shouldn't be allowed to adopt.  But the decision shouldn't be made because some people "just feel" that gay couples aren't a good choice.  I live in KS, and there was a recent story about a lesbian couple who were foster parents, and the state took the kid/s away and gave them to a straight couple - the straight couple turned out to be abusive, while there's not a shred of evidence that the lesbian couple was anything other than loving.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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jafs wrote: It's not true that gay and lesbian people had the same rights.

They didn't have the right to marry someone they loved and wanted to marry.  There are also other rights that gay couples didn't have, for example, some states have laws that mandate only family members can be designated as health care proxies, which means that even if a gay or lesbian couple wanted to designate their significant other to make those decisions for them hospitals could just ignore that because of state laws, even if the couple had a signed/notarized statement.

This argument was used to justify bans on interracial marriage and found to be incorrect by the SC in the 1960's.  Everybody's free to marry somebody of their own race, so everybody has equal rights.

And nobody's forcing any choices on you - you're free to be heterosexual, married, etc. as you like.

The bakery case isn't muddy to me at all - there is an anti-discrimination law in Oregon that specifically prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and the bakers broke that law.

If couples aren't fit to be adoptive parents, they shouldn't be allowed to adopt.  But the decision shouldn't be made because some people "just feel" that gay couples aren't a good choice.  I live in KS, and there was a recent story about a lesbian couple who were foster parents, and the state took the kid/s away and gave them to a straight couple - the straight couple turned out to be abusive, while there's not a shred of evidence that the lesbian couple was anything other than loving.
Wow JAFS I never knew that the interracial marriages were banned until so recently in history.  To me that is crazy, and also it would be so hard to enforce.  I guess all mixed people would have been lumped together with the black people and not allowed to marry white people, even if they had a white parent themselves.  Then again, allowing interracial marriage doesn't change the definition of marriage at all.  But I really  shocked it was considered an offense worthy of putting people in jail.  That's just insanity to me.

As far as gay rights, I want them to be treated as people just like everyone else.  I read that homosexuals used to be thrown in jail also, which I agree is just as insane.  The information about notarized hospital forms being overthrown is not right, I agree.  But I do think some of this anti-discrimination can become over the top.  I think people should be able to do business the way they want.  And I also am of the opinion that children are healthiest with a mother and a father- but I am not supposed to voice that opinion anymore it seems.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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bTW JAFS you are making some excellent points.  I'm not trying to criticize you as you seem very intelligent and considerate.  Some of the stuff I'm saying is just for the sake of having a balanced discussion and seeing all sides of the issue.  I see your point of view for sure ,,but I also see a different side to all this.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Michellebell wrote: bTW JAFS you are making some excellent points.  I'm not trying to criticize you as you seem very intelligent and considerate.  Some of the stuff I'm saying is just for the sake of having a balanced discussion and seeing all sides of the issue.  I see your point of view for sure ,,but I also see a different side to all this.
Thanks.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

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Michellebell wrote:
jafs wrote: It's not true that gay and lesbian people had the same rights.

They didn't have the right to marry someone they loved and wanted to marry.  There are also other rights that gay couples didn't have, for example, some states have laws that mandate only family members can be designated as health care proxies, which means that even if a gay or lesbian couple wanted to designate their significant other to make those decisions for them hospitals could just ignore that because of state laws, even if the couple had a signed/notarized statement.

This argument was used to justify bans on interracial marriage and found to be incorrect by the SC in the 1960's.  Everybody's free to marry somebody of their own race, so everybody has equal rights.

And nobody's forcing any choices on you - you're free to be heterosexual, married, etc. as you like.

The bakery case isn't muddy to me at all - there is an anti-discrimination law in Oregon that specifically prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and the bakers broke that law.

If couples aren't fit to be adoptive parents, they shouldn't be allowed to adopt.  But the decision shouldn't be made because some people "just feel" that gay couples aren't a good choice.  I live in KS, and there was a recent story about a lesbian couple who were foster parents, and the state took the kid/s away and gave them to a straight couple - the straight couple turned out to be abusive, while there's not a shred of evidence that the lesbian couple was anything other than loving.
Wow JAFS I never knew that the interracial marriages were banned until so recently in history.  To me that is crazy, and also it would be so hard to enforce.  I guess all mixed people would have been lumped together with the black people and not allowed to marry white people, even if they had a white parent themselves.  Then again, allowing interracial marriage doesn't change the definition of marriage at all.  But I really  shocked it was considered an offense worthy of putting people in jail.  That's just insanity to me.

As far as gay rights, I want them to be treated as people just like everyone else.  I read that homosexuals used to be thrown in jail also, which I agree is just as insane.  The information about notarized hospital forms being overthrown is not right, I agree.  But I do think some of this anti-discrimination can become over the top.  I think people should be able to do business the way they want.  And I also am of the opinion that children are healthiest with a mother and a father- but I am not supposed to voice that opinion anymore it seems.
It doesn't change the definition of marriage in any significant way.  All of the same legal rights/obligations/etc. will exist with same-sex marriages - issues of property, custody of children, etc.

The idea that anybody should be able to deny service in a public business because they don't like black people, women, people of a certain religion, etc. has lost against the idea that somebody running a business that's open to the public can't do that.  I'm sure that eventually sexual orientation will be added to that list, although I'm sad to say I don't think it will happen as soon as I'd like.

You can have and voice any opinion you like, but your view on this isn't based on evidence, so it shouldn't be used to make public policy decisions about things like adoption.

Seems to me you're saying things that conflict with one another when you say that gay people should be treated "just like everyone else", but then also that a business owner should be able to discriminate against them because of their sexuality.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by murphy_p_t »

BearBones wrote: As far as marriage, what it the justification for discrimination (taxes, visitation, etc) if not religious beliefs?
A better question is what is the justification for upholding the natural family?
Answer: children deserve to have a stable family environment consisting of a mother and father. This is good for society, reduces government dependency, anti-social behaviour, etc.
BearBones wrote: Based on something like the ability to procreate instead of love? If it is it guised in "the best interest of the state," then at least be consistent. No marriage if older than, say, 50. Or if you are infertile in any way.
As far as adopting, should be also be rational and consistent. I feel the same about nuclear families, but should we outlaw divorce, which is more common? And probably more destructive, since it often involves anger and confusion for a child (I'm divorced, and I think it hurt my children).
Question about divorce is very pertinent. No fault divorce is disastrous for society, including creating perverse incentives for splitting. Ultimately, children pay a heavy price.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by murphy_p_t »

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/doc ... -dx-us.pdf

Looking at the compiled data on the attached link, it seems if society truly cares for those men with disordered attractions, society will discourage this behavior. Start by not subsidizing it.

Kinda like smoking is discouraged, for the obvious health reasons, as exemplified by the CDC link.

Being more concerned about 2nd hand smoke than the spread of things like HIV is misguided.
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell »

murphy_p_t wrote: http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/doc ... -dx-us.pdf

Looking at the compiled data on the attached link, it seems if society truly cares for those men with disordered attractions, society will discourage this behavior. Start by not subsidizing it.

Kinda like smoking is discouraged, for the obvious health reasons, as exemplified by the CDC link.

Being more concerned about 2nd hand smoke than the spread of things like HIV is misguided.
I agree.  If this behavior is harmful to themselves and also others (as some are bisexual as well), it doesn't make sense to celebrate the lifestyle but rather to recognize that it is self destructive.

I bet a lot of them are sex addicts.  People who are considered sex addicts are rightly viewed as having a serious problem. 
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jafs
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by jafs »

Desert wrote:
jafs wrote: In my view, we're discussing rights in the context of our society, which is based on the fundamental idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Until the 1960's, interracial marriage was outlawed in some states, and then the SC held in Loving vs. Virginia that marriage is a fundamental right, and that states couldn't deny that right to interracial couples.  Many of the arguments against interracial marriage were the same arguments that are made today against gay marriage.

It seems to me that extending the right to gay and lesbian people is a clear and logical next step in the process.

You're free to condemn homosexuality and nobody needs you to "celebrate" it.  You can have whatever opinions/reactions to your fantasies about gay/lesbian sex as you like.  If you want to believe that gay and lesbians are going to Hell forever after they die, you can believe that.  You and others who believe as you do can go to a church that supports that belief.  If you don't like gay or lesbian people, that's your business - nobody's forcing you to be friends with them.
I think the bold statement only applies if one acknowledges some extrinsic truth source.  In a naturalistic worldview, there is no creation or creator, only natural selection.  And by definition, evolution powered by natural selection must mean that we are, in fact, not equal.  Some humans are superior to others.  There is also no source of truth to endow anyone any rights.  Remember, in the worldview held by most on this forum, rights are merely a social construct that somehow evolved along with humans and human societies.  It doesn't make sense to occasionally borrow from religion that which isn't compatible with a naturalistic worldview without absolutes.  In other words, you logically need to pick one or the other.
The bolded quote is from the founders, and they believed in God, and that those rights derived from God.

That's fine, and it's part of our history.

I don't have to agree with the religious belief to respect their belief, and appreciate the content of the founding documents, and the derivation of rights from that belief, and the protection of those rights.

From my perspective, those rights have come about through the creation of our society and the constitution, and our government which exists to protect them.
Michellebell
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Re: Thoughts on gay rights?

Post by Michellebell »

Here is an article I read that I found fascinating, although it is very long.

It has a Christian theme and it talks about what it means to love homosexuals, as well as a possible interpretation of the gay rights movement:
http://mobile.wnd.com/2005/10/32898/

Mountaineer, I am finding I agree with you a lot, which to me is pretty interesting, as I had pretty-much rejected Christianity because of contradictions I found within the bible and also with science.  I don't have time to discuss it right now but I am starting to understand Christianity a bit better now I think.  So thank you for your posts.  I think that I will become a better person if I take more time to think about what Jesus said.  I'll have to post on the religion thread about it when I have time.
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