Thoughts on gay rights?

[Cortopassi]

I read that Vogue article and have been following this and the marriage/sex thread with interest.

Apparently, I have been living under a rock...

[Fred]

Here's an article written by a daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS in Canada.  She was saying how they are not allowed to voice their opinions about homosexuality anymore because it is politically incorrect.  It's a viewpoint I had never considered before.  http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

That is super scary.

But not unexpected, Xan.  It is written ......... Is 65:5-7.  We are good to go, Rev 22:20b.  SDG. 

... M

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

So what does that have to do with the topic of gay marriage, pray tell? I have never seen a gay person burning incense on a mountain or blaspheming God on a hill. Not saying it doesn't happen. I've just never seen it.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Are you saying that gay marriage and anal sex are signs that Jesus is coming soon?

[Libertarian666]

What about the health consequences of anal sex?  I am bothered by how as far as I know, anal sex is becoming more common among heterosexuals as well. I remember hearing that kids are doing it now to prevent pregnancy. 

Isn't that an age-old Catholic schoolgirl thing? I've heard about it since I was a kid in the 70s, but I never knew if it was an urban legend.
(Edit: I mean young Catholic girl, old story).

Here's an article about how it's on the rise amongst young people today and how they need to be better educated:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=6428003

To me this is crazy- it's an article from Vogue about it.  I can't believe this was in Vogue:
http://www.vogue.com/7971679/is-anal-se ... sciortino/

I don't get this. What is wrong with the usual way?

[Fred]

I don't get this. What is wrong with the usual way?

Forgive my vulgarity, but me and my fellow software developers at work joke about how the ultimate goal of our employer is for us to bend over and........ just use your imagination.

So maybe it's just the way we are all being programmed nowadays.

In regards to homosexuals, I understand that stimulation of the prostate gland has a lot to do with it. I've never had my prostrate gland stimulated and hopefully I never will but some people speak very highly of it.

As for what a woman would get out of it, I have no clue, but some apparently do. At least you can't get pregnant.

Sorry, if I'm touching on a vulgar subject but Michelle started it.

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

[Mountaineer]

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Perhaps the ESV is a bit clearer?

... M

Isaiah 65:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)

5 who say, “Keep to yourself,
    do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
    a fire that burns all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me:
    “I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their lap
7    both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they made offerings on the mountains
    and insulted me on the hills,
I will measure into their lap
    payment for their former deeds.”

[jafs]

I don't get this. What is wrong with the usual way?

Forgive my vulgarity, but me and my fellow software developers at work joke about how the ultimate goal of our employer is for us to bend over and........ just use your imagination.

So maybe it's just the way we are all being programmed nowadays.

In regards to homosexuals, I understand that stimulation of the prostate gland has a lot to do with it. I've never had my prostrate gland stimulated and hopefully I never will but some people speak very highly of it.

As for what a woman would get out of it, I have no clue, but some apparently do. At least you can't get pregnant.

Sorry, if I'm touching on a vulgar subject but Michelle started it.

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Seems to me it's the usual "God will punish us for our sins" theme.

[Fred]

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Perhaps the ESV is a bit clearer?

... M

Isaiah 65:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)

5 who say, “Keep to yourself,
    do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
    a fire that burns all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me:
    “I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their lap
7    both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they made offerings on the mountains
    and insulted me on the hills,
I will measure into their lap
    payment for their former deeds.”

Perhaps not. I understand those verses to be talking about the practice of idolatry in ancient Israel in the presence of a jealous god but what does it have to do with homosexuality and gay rights? I really don't get it at all.

[Mountaineer]

I don't get this. What is wrong with the usual way?

Forgive my vulgarity, but me and my fellow software developers at work joke about how the ultimate goal of our employer is for us to bend over and........ just use your imagination.

So maybe it's just the way we are all being programmed nowadays.

In regards to homosexuals, I understand that stimulation of the prostate gland has a lot to do with it. I've never had my prostrate gland stimulated and hopefully I never will but some people speak very highly of it.

As for what a woman would get out of it, I have no clue, but some apparently do. At least you can't get pregnant.

Sorry, if I'm touching on a vulgar subject but Michelle started it.

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Seems to me it's the usual "God will punish us for our sins" theme.

That is the God of wrath.  Truly, He is a God of wrath that you do not want to meet.  However, He is also the God of mercy and love.  He loves us so much he gave his Son to take on our sins, all of them from all time and place, the great substitution.  You get His forgiveness and He gets your disgusting, miserable, unspeakable sins.  Just don't refuse the gift.

... M

[Mountaineer]

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Perhaps the ESV is a bit clearer?

... M

Isaiah 65:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)

5 who say, “Keep to yourself,
    do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.”
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
    a fire that burns all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me:
    “I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will indeed repay into their lap
7    both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together,
says the Lord;
because they made offerings on the mountains
    and insulted me on the hills,
I will measure into their lap
    payment for their former deeds.”

Perhaps not. I understand those verses to be talking about the practice of idolatry in ancient Israel in the presence of a jealous god but what does it have to do with homosexuality and gay rights? I really don't get it at all.

Bottom line: be glad that God provided the solution for man's unavoidable despicable sins, all of them, from all time.  Just don't refuse the gift.  John 3:16.

... M

[Fred]

Forgive my vulgarity, but me and my fellow software developers at work joke about how the ultimate goal of our employer is for us to bend over and........ just use your imagination.

So maybe it's just the way we are all being programmed nowadays.

In regards to homosexuals, I understand that stimulation of the prostate gland has a lot to do with it. I've never had my prostrate gland stimulated and hopefully I never will but some people speak very highly of it.

As for what a woman would get out of it, I have no clue, but some apparently do. At least you can't get pregnant.

Sorry, if I'm touching on a vulgar subject but Michelle started it.

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Seems to me it's the usual "God will punish us for our sins" theme.

That is the God of wrath.  Truly, He is a God of wrath that you do not want to meet.  However, He is also the God of mercy and love.  He loves us so much he gave his Son to take on our sins, all of them from all time and place, the great substitution.  You get His forgiveness and He gets your disgusting, miserable, unspeakable sins.  Just don't refuse the gift.

... M

I think you could probably be replaced by a robot.

[Mountaineer]

Seems to me it's the usual "God will punish us for our sins" theme.

That is the God of wrath.  Truly, He is a God of wrath that you do not want to meet.  However, He is also the God of mercy and love.  He loves us so much he gave his Son to take on our sins, all of them from all time and place, the great substitution.  You get His forgiveness and He gets your disgusting, miserable, unspeakable sins.  Just don't refuse the gift.

... M

I think you could probably be replaced by a robot.

Nan u, nan u.    I kind of hate to say this on a thread about gay rights, but I love you dude.  There is always hope. 

... M

[Michellebell]

I don't get this. What is wrong with the usual way?

Forgive my vulgarity, but me and my fellow software developers at work joke about how the ultimate goal of our employer is for us to bend over and........ just use your imagination.

So maybe it's just the way we are all being programmed nowadays.

In regards to homosexuals, I understand that stimulation of the prostate gland has a lot to do with it. I've never had my prostrate gland stimulated and hopefully I never will but some people speak very highly of it.

As for what a woman would get out of it, I have no clue, but some apparently do. At least you can't get pregnant.

Sorry, if I'm touching on a vulgar subject but Michelle started it.

And then there is Mountaineer's post about burning incense upon the mountains. Maybe he can explain it to us. "Original sin" I suspect.

Haha yeah I started it but I thought it was pertinent to the discussion, as it came to my mind while we were talking here.  There certainly is nothing wrong with the normal sexual intercourse, as our bodies are perfectly designed or adapted, depending on what you believe, for it.  Anal sex is not something our bodies are supposed to do and people who do it have a greater tendency to get infections and can have physiological changes.  You could call the act a self-destructive behavior.  It's also seen as a degrading behavior, which is why people joke about it.

The problem I see is that it is becoming more accepted to the point it is becoming more common amongst straight people as well.  We aren't even supposed to discourage it anymore as that would offend the gay community.

If young men are seeing it in porn and associating it with normal sexuality, they may be more eager to try it or pressure their girlfriends into it, as the second boyfriend pressured the girl in the Vogue article.  I don't know if the increased gay awareness has caused this shift or not, but they have happened around the same time and the act originated as a homosexual behavior.  I don't want to be vulgar to the point I offend people here either.  I don't like the fact that it's more common than it used to be.

[dualstow]

That all makes good sense to me and I feel similarly, but of course they're going to need some "righteous heteros" on their side who do worry about the issue. (I'm not an activist, and I'm in no position to criticize).

[jafs]

It's easy for straight people to be less concerned about gay rights than gay people are, since we're not affected personally.

[Michellebell]

After reading and posting about homosexuality here, I actually feel worse for them than I did before.  They must feel very torn inside.

As far as parenting goes , I found this article by a daughter of lesbians and she feels exactly how I'd imagine children of lesbians would feel, except I feel even worse for sons of lesbians:  http://americansfortruth.com/2015/03/19 ... more-21143

Here's another article I came across that I found very interesting.  This man did a faith based therapy to help him learn to deal with his homosexuality in a way that allowed him to achieve happiness in a heterosexual marriage.  My understanding is this is different than the therapies that have attempted to turn gay people straight, which have proven generally unsuccessful and potentially harmful.  This man still feels attraction for men but he says he is no longer consumed by it, is happier now, plus he chose this program for himself and never had anyone forcing it on him:
http://nypost.com/2013/07/22/a-low-atta ... x-therapy/

It seems to me like we are trying as a culture to accept and celebrate homosexuality as a way to elevate them and discourage people from holding onto any biases against them, but in reality they seem to me like a pretty inherently self-hating bunch. 

[Mountaineer]

We have been tossing around the word "rights" quite a lot in this thread.

a definition:  "a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way: [ with infinitive ] : she had every right to be angry | you're quite within your rights to ask for your money back | there is no right of appeal against the decision."

Gay rights? 

Legal?  Perhaps.  Depends on what country you are in.  Thus, not absolute rights.

Moral?  As determined by what external source (other than legal)?  Or is this a case of whatever is right in your own eyes?

... M

[dualstow]

Moral?  As determined by what external source (other than legal)?  Or is this a case of whatever is right in your own eyes?

My 2 cents: treating other human beings like human beings and equals is the moral thing to do.

It's easy for straight people to be less concerned about gay rights than gay people are, since we're not affected personally.

This is usually about the time on gyroscopicinvesting that someone whips out the quote:

when they came for the Communists, I didn't do anything because I wasn't a Communist

etc.
And as well they should.

[jafs]

After reading and posting about homosexuality here, I actually feel worse for them than I did before.  They must feel very torn inside.

As far as parenting goes , I found this article by a daughter of lesbians and she feels exactly how I'd imagine children of lesbians would feel, except I feel even worse for sons of lesbians:  http://americansfortruth.com/2015/03/19 ... more-21143

Here's another article I came across that I found very interesting.  This man did a faith based therapy to help him learn to deal with his homosexuality in a way that allowed him to achieve happiness in a heterosexual marriage.  My understanding is this is different than the therapies that have attempted to turn gay people straight, which have proven generally unsuccessful and potentially harmful.  This man still feels attraction for men but he says he is no longer consumed by it, is happier now, plus he chose this program for himself and never had anyone forcing it on him:
http://nypost.com/2013/07/22/a-low-atta ... x-therapy/

It seems to me like we are trying as a culture to accept and celebrate homosexuality as a way to elevate them and discourage people from holding onto any biases against them, but in reality they seem to me like a pretty inherently self-hating bunch.

It seems to me that you had a bias against homosexuality, and you're just finding small bits of things to reinforce that, and ignoring large amounts of evidence that would challenge it.

[Mountaineer]

Moral?  As determined by what external source (other than legal)?  Or is this a case of whatever is right in your own eyes?

My 2 cents: treating other human beings like human beings and equals is the moral thing to do.

It's easy for straight people to be less concerned about gay rights than gay people are, since we're not affected personally.

This is usually about the time on gyroscopicinvesting that someone whips out the quote:

when they came for the Communists, I didn't do anything because I wasn't a Communist

etc.
And as well they should.

I agree with the first comment re. your two cents.  My question is why do we think that? 

And for your second and third comments, why do we (the Imperial we) not stand up for our fellow human beings, regardless of their color, religion, sexual inclination, or IQ when they are being mistreated?

... M

[Fred]

Nan u, nan u.    I kind of hate to say this on a thread about gay rights, but I love you dude.  There is always hope. 

Well, I love you too man, in a "hate religion but love the religious" kind of way (not so sure about some Muslims though).

But since you still have a personal relationship with God and I don't, you can tell him for me that maybe the incense burning to other gods on the hilltops and rising up into his nostrils wouldn't piss him off so much if he would go and look for some suffering people in the world instead and help them out. Seems like a better way to handle rejection to me than all the nasty stuff he says he's going to do about it in the Bible.

[Mountaineer]

Nan u, nan u.    I kind of hate to say this on a thread about gay rights, but I love you dude.  There is always hope. 

Well, I love you too man, in a "hate religion but love the religious" kind of way (not so sure about some Muslims though).

But since you still have a personal relationship with God and I don't, you can tell him for me that maybe the incense burning to other gods on the hilltops and rising up into his nostrils wouldn't piss him off so much if he would go and look for some suffering people in the world instead and help them out. Seems like a better way to handle rejection to me than all the nasty stuff he says he's going to do about it in the Bible.

I would never presume to speak for you.  I have way too much trouble speaking for my suffering self.  This pinched nerve in my neck is giving me fits.  But then I have to compare it to being crucified - I have no problems!  A bulging disk pressing on the spinal cord cannot be compared to slowly suffocating with nails ripping the nerves of wrists and feet.  I do hope however, that I do not become one of those stiff necked people talked about in the Scriptures. 

... M

[Fred]

Nan u, nan u.    I kind of hate to say this on a thread about gay rights, but I love you dude.  There is always hope. 

Well, I love you too man, in a "hate religion but love the religious" kind of way (not so sure about some Muslims though).

But since you still have a personal relationship with God and I don't, you can tell him for me that maybe the incense burning to other gods on the hilltops and rising up into his nostrils wouldn't piss him off so much if he would go and look for some suffering people in the world instead and help them out. Seems like a better way to handle rejection to me than all the nasty stuff he says he's going to do about it in the Bible.

I would never presume to speak for you.  I have way too much trouble speaking for my suffering self.  This pinched nerve in my neck is giving me fits.  But then I have to compare it to being crucified - I have no problems!  A bulging disk pressing on the spinal cord cannot be compared to slowly suffocating with nails ripping the nerves of wrists and feet.  I do hope however, that I do not become one of those stiff necked people talked about in the Scriptures. 

... M

Sorry to hear about your neck problems. I have them myself so I can sympathize and it's why I'm probably going to retire at the end of the year (that and the PP doing well enough so far to meet my goals). My neck feels stiff all the time but I'll resist thinking that God and the Biblical reference has anything to do with it since you obviously aren't one of the "stiff-necked" people and have a similar problem. Hope you feel better.

[Mountaineer]

Well, I love you too man, in a "hate religion but love the religious" kind of way (not so sure about some Muslims though).

But since you still have a personal relationship with God and I don't, you can tell him for me that maybe the incense burning to other gods on the hilltops and rising up into his nostrils wouldn't piss him off so much if he would go and look for some suffering people in the world instead and help them out. Seems like a better way to handle rejection to me than all the nasty stuff he says he's going to do about it in the Bible.

I would never presume to speak for you.  I have way too much trouble speaking for my suffering self.  This pinched nerve in my neck is giving me fits.  But then I have to compare it to being crucified - I have no problems!  A bulging disk pressing on the spinal cord cannot be compared to slowly suffocating with nails ripping the nerves of wrists and feet.  I do hope however, that I do not become one of those stiff necked people talked about in the Scriptures. 

... M

Sorry to hear about your neck problems. I have them myself so I can sympathize and it's why I'm probably going to retire at the end of the year (that and the PP doing well enough so far to meet my goals). My neck feels stiff all the time but I'll resist thinking that God and the Biblical reference has anything to do with it since you obviously aren't one of the "stiff-necked" people and have a similar problem. Hope you feel better.

Thank you.  I appreciate the concern.  Sorry to hear of your first hand knowledge of the problem.  And, best wishes to you for a very enjoyable retirement when you pull the plug, and for an unstiffening neck. 

... M

[Michellebell]

After reading and posting about homosexuality here, I actually feel worse for them than I did before.  They must feel very torn inside.

It seems to me that you had a bias against homosexuality, and you're just finding small bits of things to reinforce that, and ignoring large amounts of evidence that would challenge it.

Okay JAFS that sounds about right.  Much of the stuff I find on the internet about homosexuality casts it in a very positive light.  And I have to search for the voices that cast a negative light on it.  Most of the sources that say anything negative about it are from religious websites, and I'm not particularly religious (although I do agree with quite a bit of the morals).  Therefore the stuff I've found is certainly not mainstream.

Aren't we all biased though?  Is there something wrong with that really?  You are biased against people who have specific morals they follow because they are less tolerant of people who choose different paths than they do.  I used to be more this way myself but I guess I'm becoming more conservative as I get older (and I'm not even that old- I'm 33).  I do not feel perfectly happy about people engaging in sexual activities that are spreading diseases and causing physical harm, even if they are consenting adults.  People do a lot of harmful things to themselves but I don't think those things deserve celebration.  I also want to see our society recognize the value of two committed biological parents as they play a highly significant role in the well being of children.

Maybe I shouldn't care at all what other people do, but I can't help but have opinions. I don't feel like I ever get to say them IRL because people are so judgmental.  I know I'm being judgmental myself of gay people here but I am glad to finally have an opportunity to say what I really think without fear of burning bridges with people I care about who know me personally.  My husband told me recently I should start a blog but I can't because I'm not brave enough to voice my opinions openly and not an anonymously. 

I felt unsettled about gay people winning the right to marry although I never said that I opposed it.  I just didn't feel quite right about it and couldn't put my finger on it.  I thought, gay people are people too so of course they should have the same right.  I didn't change my Facebook profile picture though in celebration like everyone else though.  I don't think polygamy or group marriages or whatever else people come up with should ever get to win the legal title of " marriage" either.  I want the sentence, "I'm married," to automatically say a lot about me if I say it to a stranger.  Others may not have that opinion at all, but I'm allowed to have mine. 

I feel like I'm quite a minority.  I don't have a Christian background of follow any religion, religiously . But I have been developing more conservative values naturally as I've used my own observations, common sense, and experiences to determine what makes me happier and what I believe could make other people happier.

I used to be incredibly depressed and highly self destructive and have come a long way.  I have made a lot of observations of other people who have made very poor choices for themselves and seem to want to hold onto their unhappiness by being ruled by their sometimes harmful urges.  I think our choices really have tremendous power.  We can be happy just by choosing to be happy, for example. 

[jafs]

If it's about right, then your view isn't based on evidence.

I'm not biased against people who follow their own morals at all - that's everybody's right.  I try to follow my own morals as well.

And, they have a right to be as critical and judgmental as they like about any topic they choose.

But, all of that has little or nothing to do with whether or not gay and lesbian people should have equal legal rights in our society.  That discussion should be based on evidence, and sound reasoning about our founding principles and constitutional foundation.

"I'm married" is a statement that means different things to different people already, and I'm not sure why you'd need those two words to explain a lot about you.  If you want people to understand your marriage, then you can tell them about it, as you have on here already.  And, your desire for those words to mean something specific about you is also not a good reason to deny other people the right to structure their marriages differently from yours, in my view.

And, you seem to be mixing different things together - I agree that people can do things that are unhealthy, and that's a shame, not something to "celebrate".  But I don't believe that our government should be in the position of enforcing "healthy" behavior of consenting adults.

I'm glad that you're happier and less self-destructive - that's a good thing.