February 13 Republican Debate

[Pointedstick]

I just about died from delight watching that part. Such a perfect response to �Jeb!'s incomprehensibly stupid plan to overthrow Assad and instigate a major conflict with Russia instead of working with them in an area where our interests are aligned. Trump hit a lot of high notes with me tonight, and the GOP elite's obvious packing of the audience with neocon Bush fans looked really really bad. Don't those idiots understand that the people watching the debate on TV are going to see through it and sympathize with Trump, not them? Idiots. It is delightful to watch trump dismantle the GOP brick by brick. Perhaps after he's done, it can be rebuilt into something useful.

[MediumTex]

I think that historians will be hard on W. when it comes to the Iraq war.

From the false WMD narrative that was sold to the American people as a pretense for war, to the nonexistent Saddam Husseign Al Queada connection, to the "Mission Accomplished" speech, to the exorbitant cost, to the fact that Bush's management of the war led to more U.S. deaths than 9/11, to the 100,000+ civilians deaths, to the budget invasion force that caused the war to last eight years, to the fact that the moment the U.S. left Iraq fell into an almost inevitable civil war that is likely to last another 10-20 years and result in the breakup of what we know as "Iraq", to the fact that the U.S. attack on Iraq and the power vacuum it created led to the creation of ISIS, it's a debacle that you rarely see anywhere in history.

It's really bizarre that the American people aren't more angry about it than they are. 

[rickb]

I think that historians will be hard on W. when it comes to the Iraq war.

From the false WMD narrative that was sold to the American people as a pretense for war, to the nonexistent Saddam Husseign Al Queada connection, to the "Mission Accomplished" speech, to the exorbitant cost, to the fact that Bush's management of the war led to more U.S. deaths than 9/11, to the 100,000+ civilians deaths, to the budget invasion force that caused the war to last eight years, to the fact that the moment the U.S. left Iraq fell into an almost inevitable civil war that is likely to last another 10-20 years and result in the breakup of what we know as "Iraq", to the fact that the U.S. attack on Iraq and the power vacuum it created led to the creation of ISIS, it's a debacle that you rarely see anywhere in history.

It's really bizarre that the American people aren't more angry about it than they are.

Absolutely.  Worst president ever.  It's not even close.  When he got re-elected in 2004 I was stunned. 

 

[Pointedstick]

That's a pretty insulting map, but it accurately represents the feelings of bitter extreme liberals. I was raised by parents meeting that description in a college town whose intellectual elite met that description and heard "dumbfuckistan" (and other insulting, polarizing terms used to describe "red america") a lot growing up.

Let's be honest. The biggest reason for a Democratic loss in 2004 was that John Kerry was a terrible candidate. I campaigned for Kerry that year and was invited to the DNC convention as part of a "young Democrats" program, and I remember the feeling being really gloomy and demoralized. Everyone there knew he sucked and was probably going to lose but nobody wanted to admit and face the truth. It was a real downer of an experience.

Relatedly, I want to comment on "When he got re-elected in 2004 I was stunned." I think this highlights a major force in our society: our tendency to live in social echo chambers where our own views are reinforced. It was completely obvious to me as well that Bush would lose in 2004 until I went on this program and came into contact with some serious political insiders who really had their ears to the ground. They didn't have the luxury of deluding themselves that Bush would lose because none of their friends were Republicans, and they were scared because they knew Bush was stronger than Democrats thought and Kerry weaker. When I got home, I returned to my little extreme liberal bubble where nobody I knew was a Republican and we all knew Bush was the evil spawn of Satan, and the contrast was jarring to my young brain. Everyone around me seemed like they were setting themselves up for such major disappointment, anger, and cognitive dissonance. When Bush was re-elected, they were indeed stunned. It was the first of many experiences that turned me off of one-viewpoint echo chambers. That's why I like this forum so much. There's a real diversity of opinions here and I feel constantly challenged to justify and defend what I believe, which to me is like a form of mental exercise. Whenever everyone around me sounds like me, I get a bit nervous.

[Pointedstick]

Absolutely.  Worst president ever.  It's not even close.

Also, historians are pretty united about the worst presidents ever mostly being the bumblers whose mismanagement caused and exacerbated the civil war and the dopes who cocked up the aftermath:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... ey_results

George W does make the bottom 10, though. Rated worse than Nixon!

[Pointedstick]

Oh, and to get back to the debate… like I said:
http://www.wyff4.com/news/loyal-support ... e/37950532

GREENVILLE, S.C. —Thousands of people are trying to go to the GOP presidential debate at the Peace Center in Greenville.

It would take a venue that is 11 times the size of the Peace Center to hold everyone who tried to get a ticket through the lottery system.

GOP leaders said the Peace Center wasn't large enough, so the South Carolina Republican Party decided not to go with a lottery system.

"If we had not had it at the Peace Center we probably would have had more people come, but the Peace Center is the venue that CBS chose,” said Chad Groover, chairman of the Greenville County Republican party.

Groover said supporters who work hard for the party will be rewarded tickets.

Salon picked up on this too:
http://www.salon.com/2016/02/14/trump_a ... _the_rncs/

An especially ominous part:

The real weakness of the GOP establishment will be measured on Saturday in the because it will show, in real hard numbers, just how many traditional Republicans are left. If Trump can blame 9-11 on establishment icon George W. Bush and then win the South Carolina primary, then we’ll know that the old Republican Party just doesn’t exist anymore. If that doesn’t sink his campaign, then nothing will, and he will be the GOP nominee. We’ll know for sure on Saturday, but the Drudge Poll today has given us a hint.

[Pointedstick]

Ominous for them, of course! 

[Reub]

Are the worst Presidents a settled science like global warming is?

Are the worst Presidents a settled science like global warming is?

global warming you can question, the worst presidents is settled.... its all of them*
(to what degree? ...let the debate begin...)



*at least the last eight or nine decades worth (my apologias to any octogenarian to centenarian who may actually have living memories of good presidents in their life time..