Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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Gumby
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Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

Post by Gumby »

I've decided to create a new topic on this, since the Jim Rogers goes short 30 year bond thread is no longer about investing or LTTs anymore (surprise, surprise).

I find it amusing that Jim Rogers is still shorting the 30 year bond after his disastrous call about Long Term Treasuries back in 2008 — when Long Term Treasuries were the only good investment.

Here's what Jim Rogers had to say on October 14, 2008:
The risk is that yields rise as the U.S. increases debt sales to fund the bank rescue plan and pumps money into the economy, said investor Jim Rogers, chairman of Rogers Holdings and former partner of hedge fund manager George Soros who forecast the start of the commodities rally in 1999.

``The U.S. government is taking on gigantic amounts of debt,'' Rogers said in an interview in Singapore, where he lives. ``They're printing gigantic amounts of money. Printing money has always led to more inflation. The last bubble in the world that I can find is long-term U.S. government bonds.''

Rogers said he is ``shorting'' 30-year debt, or betting prices will fall. Wrightson ICAP LLC in Jersey City, New Jersey, an economic advisory firm specializing in government finance, says the U.S. is likely to sell more of the debt to fund its bailout plan, along with more frequent auctions of 10-year notes, the reintroduction of three-and seven-year notes and increased sales of all maturities.


Source: Bloomberg
And here's what happened to Long Term Treasuries right after Jim Rogers made his prediction:

[align=center]Image[/align]

Whoops!

Not only was Jim Rogers wrong, but he was wrong at the worst possible time — when Long Term Treasuries were the only investment anybody wanted to have.

And this idea that we've been exploding the money — leading to inflation — couldn't have been more wrong. Days later, Bernanke himself explained that QE is nothing more than an asset swap:
"If you think of the Fed’s balance sheet, when we buy securities, on the asset side of the balance sheet, we get the Treasury securities, or in the previous episode, mortgage-backed securities. On the liability side of the balance sheet, to balance that, we create reserves in the banking system. Now, what these reserves are is essentially deposits that commercial banks hold with the Fed, so sometimes you hear the Fed is printing money, that’s not really happening, the amount of cash in circulation is not changing. What’s happening is that banks are holding more and more reserves with the Fed. Now the question is what happens the economy starts to grow quickly and it’s time to pull back the monetary policy accommodation. There are several tools that we have"

Source: Q&A Session with Ben Bernanke at Jacksonville University, Nov 5, 2010
And even the data from the Fed shows us that M2 has remained well within the historical levels of growth.

[align=center]Image[/align]

[align=center]Image[/align]

Yet, even in 2010, Jim Rogers continued to cling to his 30 year bond short. Rogers couldn't have been more wrong about Long Term Treasuries in 2008. And his prediction about the money supply and inflation has been dead wrong so far — almost 3 years now!

And now he's shorting LTTs again!

It all makes me wonder why people listen to these "gurus" when they are wrong so often.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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Nice write-up Gumby... Good stuff.

Now you just might want to change the name of this thread to "MMT vs Hyperinflationist Pissing Match," as I'm sure that's what it'll be in about 5 posts.

I kid... I love our discussions of late.  LT bonds are that asset that people love to hate almost as much as their adversaries hate gold.

They can continue to bet on their horses... I'll take a share of the race track.

In fact... the race track analogy opened up something to me (and this might tie in to our debate styles and high female membership level)... I think there's something to many men immasculating about hedging one's bets or admitting to uncertainty. I think confidence is a huge factor in male society, and to have such a huge degree of uncertainty built into your financial plan is not natural to a lot of men, who often control the family's finances.  It's a sign of weakness to shrug one's shoulders.  Guys would rather make their bets, stake their place at the table, and watch aggressively as the dice roll.
Last edited by moda0306 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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I hope this isn't a discussion about MMT. We've already covered that. This is supposed to be a discussion about so-called "gurus" and their bag of tricks.

If you look at Doodle's threads over the past few months, almost all of his fears originate from Jim Rogers predictions.

http://jimrogers-investments.blogspot.com/

But, as we know, investment gurus are very good at hiding their past mistakes.

Jim Rogers appears to be trying to make a prediction that could take 5 to 30 years to happen. And when it does come true (eventually), he'll take a big victory lap. So, he can be wrong for the next 30 years and still look good to his followers.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

Post by MediumTex »

Note, too, that all we know is what Rogers SAID.  W don't really know what he actually did.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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MediumTex wrote: Note, too, that all we know is what Rogers SAID.  W don't really know what he actually did.
Actually...It turns out he had to cover.
"I was shorting the long bond in October and in November but I had to cover."
  — Jim Rogers December 28, 2008


Source: http://jimrogers-investments.blogspot.c ... -bond.html
Ooops.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

Post by melveyr »

Jim Rogers is a story teller. Its amazing how he can analyze something as complex as the financial markets, and derive a clean, predictable narrative from it.

I think we radically over estimate our understanding of cause and effect.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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melveyr wrote: Jim Rogers is a story teller. Its amazing how he can analyze something as complex as the financial markets, and derive a clean, predictable narrative from it.

I think we radically over estimate our understanding of cause and effect.
I agree. Gurus like Jim Rogers do a lot of double-speak. Here's what he said last week:
"I am long the Dollar not because I have long term confidence or even medium term confidence on the dollar, it is just that everybody is bearish on the dollar including me, I am probably more bearish than anybody, but whenever I've seen that in the past it usually led to a rally, I do not know if it will lead to a rally this time or not, but I stepped in and bought some dollars, I am a terrible market timer, I am a terrible short term trader so I probably should not be doing it but I have."  — Jim Rogers, S&A Investor Radio podcast
Source: http://jimrogers1.blogspot.com/2011/07/ ... ollar.html
He phrases his words in a way he can be right no matter how it turns out.
Last edited by Gumby on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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A few months later, Rogers then closed his next short position on LTTs only days after telling investors why they should short them.

Here was Jim Rogers in January of this year, in an interview with Chris Martenson:
Jim: Well I’m short U.S. Treasury bonds. It’s my view that people will cut back. I mean, the U.S. is the largest debtor is the history of the world. And I’m not the only person who knows that. And the debts are getting bigger, if not worse. And Bernanke is printing a lot of money. So you combine money printing with big debt issuance and normally people say, “I don’t want to lend you money for thirty years, not in that kind of environment.”?  I’ve sold the bonds short: that does not mean interest rates will continue going higher, but it might. [*note: Jim has informed us he closed out this short position a week after recording this interview, given the increases in international social unrest]
Source: Transcript of Interview with Jim Rogers: Why Inflation is Raging Worldwide And He Shorted US Treasury Bonds
Unbelievable.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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I'm not necessarily defending Jim Rogers, but it's well known that successful traders routinely have a win rate of less than 50% on their trades.  You can lose $1 nine times out of 10, but if your tenth trade wins you $15, you're making money.  I have no idea if Jim Rogers has been successful recently or not with his other trades.  All I know for sure is he made a killing in the commodity world in the 70s.

Also, Gumby, I'm not sure if Bernanke is overconfident or simply lying with respect to draining liquidity.  It takes 6-12 months to see the full effects of today's monetary policy so to say he can just "use a tool" to shut off a switch is nonsense.  With every decision, The Fed is guessing about the future.

The monetary base has indeed exploded.  Other monetary aggregates such as M1, M2 and M3 reconstructed are accelerating rapidly.  Austrian benchmarks such as True Money Supply have been rising at a tremendous pace.  The inflation we've exported to the rest of the world via currency pegs has destabilized entire countries and hurt most of the world's poor.  We are currently running at about -3.5% real interest rates on 1-yr treasuries.  It's entirely possible we run into another deflationary shock which destroys demand for money, but it's not a certainty.

I say all this not because I want to short treasuries.  I just think if and when the bull market ends in treasuries, I don't think it will be slow and painless.  I don't have the confidence that Bernanke and Company will know the exact time to drain because it will be a deeply unpopular decision in a difficult economic environment.  Bernanke thinks he can shrink the Fed's balance sheet in the midst of an unhealthy banking sector that does not even mark it's assets to market?  Good luck, Ben!
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

Post by MediumTex »

This long bond melt up is starting to look like a whole gaggle of shorts getting smoked.

I can almost hear them squealing.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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Wonk wrote:I'm not necessarily defending Jim Rogers, but it's well known that successful traders routinely have a win rate of less than 50% on their trades.  You can lose $1 nine times out of 10, but if your tenth trade wins you $15, you're making money.
9 out of 10 poor calls doesn't help the mom and pops who take that advice.
Wonk wrote:The monetary base has indeed exploded.  Other monetary aggregates such as M1, M2 and M3 reconstructed are accelerating rapidly.  Austrian benchmarks such as True Money Supply have been rising at a tremendous pace.
Most economists believe that M3 is not a reliable indicator of the real money supply. That's why it was discontinued. Did you not see the charts from the St. Louis Fed in my original post? M2 is well within the normal rate of growth — no surprise there.
Wonk wrote:The inflation we've exported to the rest of the world
I think you're thinking of China. China's M2 really is exploding and we're feeling the effects of it. If we were flush with cash in this country, I think we'd see a lot more evidence of it domestically.

Image

As you can see in this chart, China has literally allowed its money supply to skyrocket, compared to that of the U.S. or the Eurozone, with annual growth averaging +17.4% between 1996 and 2008, which compares to +7.1% in the Eurozone and +6.3% in the United States.

Anyway, this conversation is about investment gurus. I think most of us would agree that they are wrong most of the time.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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Gumby wrote: I find it amusing that Jim Rogers is still shorting the 30 year bond after his disastrous call about Long Term Treasuries back in 2008 — when Long Term Treasuries were the only good investment.
Asking a pundit like Jim Rogers how he he makes his investing decisions is kind of like asking a lottery winner how they pick their numbers.  They may think they have some clever system, but it really just boils down to luck in the end.  
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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The whole idea of "exporting inflation" is huge... and probably not for the reason most inflationists think.  If we'd spent and printed all these years and held a steady trade balance we'd probably be suffering huge inflation that whole time, but when our dollars go overseas and those countries don't send it back, it results in foreign savings going up.

For that very reason, if you can reverse the logic, a sharp inflation would probably involve (in a cause/effect chicken/egg scenario) China & others to start spending their dollars here, especially if rates are below real.

I guess i've been on this topic a lot lately, but the mechanics of problematic inflation are hard to think up, because higher foreign demand for our goods is almost always part of the equation.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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I have to step in to Rogers defense. I have read all of his books

Investment biker
Adventure capitalist
A bull in china
Hot commodities

I think if anyone reads those books and then checks the success of his long term predictions they will find that he is batting much higher than .500

The man definitely has a talent in identifying long term trends and the patience and confidence to capitalize on them.

He didn't become a billionaire by getting it wrong.

He is a straight talker and doesn't mince words, but his insights in his books are quite thoughtful and insightful. I recommend them not only as good reads about an interesting individual, but also as a view into the way that one of the most successful investors ever looks at the world.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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doodle wrote: He is a straight talker and doesn't mince words, but his insights in his books are quite thoughtful and insightful. I recommend them not only as good reads about an interesting individual, but also as a view into the way that one of the most successful investors ever looks at the world.
There are lots of pundits I enjoy listening to, but that doesn't mean I take their investment advice.

Jim Rogers is a great guy.  He just goes on TV and says strange things sometimes and lately his trades seem to have incredibly poor timing.

That doesn't mean he hasn't made some great calls in the past, and he may make great calls again at some point in the future.

I would say the same thing about Buffett, Soros and Paulson.  Ultimately, I think you have to develop your own market theory and philosophy and stick to it.  Borrowing someone else's always seems to end badly.  Harry Browne is the exception to this rule, in part, because his philosophy was essentially that no philosophy can be relied on all of the time.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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doodle wrote: I have to step in to Rogers defense. I have read all of his books

Investment biker
Adventure capitalist
A bull in china
Hot commodities
He is an entertaining character, and indirectly responsible for me ultimately finding the permanent portfolio. That said, I have been following him long enough to see that he does not have a crystal ball, or at least one he shares.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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doodle wrote:I think if anyone reads those books and then checks the success of his long term predictions they will find that he is batting much higher than .500
In his 1987 book, Why The Best-Laid Investment Plans Usually Go Wrong, Harry Browne exposed the tricks that market forecasters (such as Jim Rogers) use to make people believe in their clairvoyant powers.

Here are a few passages from Chapter 3, "Forecasts That Go Wrong":
CHAPTER 3: Forecasts That Go Wrong

...

GETTING OFF THE HOOK

You may wonder how advisors can continue in business while making forecasts that almost never come true.

The answer is that while few people keep track of the predictions, most people want to keep hearing them. It's as simple as that.

Even when an investor loses money acting on a forecast, he may wonder whether he used the forecast properly — especially when the forecaster claims that the outcome is another victory for his forecasting record. And having lost money on one forecast, the investor can feel an even greater need to find another one that will help recoup his loss.

Even if a prediction was clearly awful and you confront the forecaster with it, he doesn't have to apologize. Forecasting means never having to say you're wrong, since there are so many ways to slip off the hook.

We should look at a few of those ways, so that you'll understand the nature of the talent underlying most "uncanny" forecasting records.

DIDN'T YOU SEE IT?

When a forecast goes wrong, one way out is to say that the predicted event did occur, but that it's been concealed by other things.

Did your prediction of higher inflation by 1985 go wrong? Just say that the economy is permeated by intense inflationary pressure, but it's hidden by the exceptional fall in oil prices and the strong dollar in foreign exchange markets.

Where you the one whose cycle theory targeted 1986 for a stock-market crash? Tell them that the downside of the cycle arrived right on schedule — preventing the Dow Jones from reaching 3000 in 1986.

TIMING

When the deadline passes without the predicted event occuring, another out is to adjust the timing. And then adjust it agin, and again, and again.

On August 27, 1982, one famous investment advisor made it clear that inflation (then at 6.5%) was on the way up.


   Then look for gradually rekindling inflaiton, a recovery from recession, and eventually 25% to 30% inflation within four years.

By the middle of 1983, the inflation rate had dropped by over half — to 2.4%. So, he said:

   The Commodity Research Bureau Index has jumped 24% from it's September 1982 low, and is saying in no uncertain terms, price inflation is coming. It will take a while to work its way into the Consumer Price Index, but it is inevitable.

In January 1984, the latest inflation rate was a lethargic 3.2% — a letdown from the resugence he had anticipated. He said, " The reasons for it are simple," and explained that high interest rates and the severity of the last recession had caused the interlude before the next round of inflation to be longer than in previous monetary cycles. He said it so mater-of-factly that one couldn't help but wonder why he hadn't bothered to tell us this before we had bet our money on imminent inflation. But no maqtter:

   This has had a dampening effect on inflation but has only postponed the inevitable...I don't expect much of anything on the inflation front until the second half of the year [1984]

By January 1985, the inflation rate had inched up to 4.0%. He said:

   This year (probably in the first six months), we'll see higher inflation, higher metals, cheaper stocks, and an end to the interest rate decline.

As it turned out, 1985 brought level inflation, level metal prices, much higher stocks, and a continuation of the interest-rate decline. Otherwise, he was right on target.

Then came January 1986 and inflation was back down to 3.6%. He explained:


   Last year, I said inflation would probably start up early in the year. I got the year wrong...because the Fed maintained a strong dollar and high real interest rates much longer than I thought they could, delaying inflation way beyond our expectations. But that's now history. That forecast for 1985 will happen in 1986, and people who bought inflation hedges and held on will have their judgement vindicated...

   Right on schedule, our year-to-year inflation indicator has shown its first small upturn in a long time. I think it is significant, and rising inflation should be the biggest surprise of 1986


At the time he wrote that, the inflation rate was 3.6%. By the end of 1986, the rate had dropped to 1.3%. I guess inflation was "the biggest surprise of 1986" — to the advisor.

In January 1987 there was no forecast issue.

Interestingly, this man often suggests that his most important asset as an investment advisor is his understanding of where we are in the business cycle at any given time.

CREATIVE REDEFINITION

Another way to slip out of a prediction is to say that you meant something different from what some people seem to think you meant.

In the early 1980s, a number of advisors predicted a resurgence of inflation by 1983. When inflation hadn't returned by 1983 or 1984, or even by 1985 or 1986, some of them still insisted they'd been right — because the original, 19th-century, definition of "inflation" is an increase in the supply of money, which had in fact occured. However, their readers who had acted on the forecast may be wondering why, in that case, they had bought so much gold and real estate.

Those who have forecast deflation also know how to redefine words. One prominent investmetn advistor predicted over and over that there would be a full-scale deflation "in the early 1980s." What we got instead was disinflation — just as we'd had in the late 1950s, the late 1960s, and the mid-1970s. Undaunted, the forecaster said that we were going through a deflation, but that people who didn't want to admit he was right had renamed it disinflation. ("Deflation" means a fall in prices. "Disinflation — which is not a new world — means a slowing of the rate at which prices are rising).

The world's record for audacious redefinition may have been set in 1975. After having predicted an imminent deflationary collapse for several years, a prominent newsletter writer vindicated his prediction by describing the high prices he'd encountered on a recent trip — summing it all up, "If that isn't deflation in the value of money, I don't know what is."

This astounding escape has been an instpiration to investment advisors ever since. We know that, whatever happens, there's a way to come out smelling like a rose.

...

FORECASTING & STRATEGY

Some investment advisors and mutual fund managers have compiled impressive, verifiable records — and not by luck alone. In most cases, however, this success isn't testimony to their forecasting powers.

Rather, success has been earned with methods that help the advisor recognize investment values, enter markets when the risk is low, cut losses when investments turn bad, and let profits grow when the market is kind. These methods don't involve forecasting: they are a part of good strategy.

Nevertheless, many of these successful advisors insist that their greatest virtue is an ability to forecast the future. Like most investors, they assume that success comes from forecasting. And like most advisors, they believe their customers expect them to be good at it.

FORECASTING THE FUTURE

Investing would be so simple and easy if a wizard could tell us what the future holds. So it's understandable that most people are reluctant to check a forecaster's record closely, and are so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's also understandable that you might refuse to accept what I say about forecasting — no matter how many examples of bad forecasting I trot out, or how many arguments against forecasting I assert.

And even if you do agree with me in priciple, tomorrow you may come across a forecaster who seems to be truly different. I wouldn't be surprised; it's his trade, his craft, to seem different.

You might choose to believe in him because he's discovered a reliable new indicator, or because he has a wonderful track record, or because he builds his forecast from assumptions you share. And you may wecome him because you're not sure how you could invest without a forecaster to guide you.

To know the future is a perennial hope. And there is no end to the promises that the hope will be fulfilled.


Imagine the investors who listened to those forecasts in the 80s. Imagine clinging onto Gold, being sure that higher inflation was re-surging. Scary stuff.

A lot of what Rogers says about hyperinflation and Treasury Bonds — which he's been saying for three years now — reminds me of those clips referenced above. Rogers may be proven right someday, but he could just as easily be proven wrong. Either way, it's all just wild speculation. Certainly not worth betting your life's savings on.
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

Post by Gumby »

Speaking of gurus... Have you seen the advertisements for this guy?

[align=center]Image[/align]

Wow, he called two stock market crashes! What are the chances? I guess I'm going to sell my Permanent Portfolio and do whatever this guy says ;D
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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Gumby wrote: Speaking of gurus... Have you seen the advertisements for this guy?

[align=center]Image[/align]

Wow, he called two stock market crashes! What are the chances? I guess I'm going to sell my Permanent Portfolio and do whatever this guy says ;D
Wreaks of pump 'n' dump.  If you try to get his free report, you go to yet another advertisement that requests a lot of personal contact information.  It says that if you fill out the info, Dennis will recommend 3 stocks poised to soar...funny that he knows of three stocks poised to soar during an inevitable stock market crash. 

I know I'm preaching to the choir...
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Re: Jim Rogers Blew It in 2008

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The choir sometimes enjoys a good preacher. :)
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