Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

Which is it?  Admit you are a sinner, repent, and know that God forgives you because of what Jesus did on the cross.  "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it", says Jesus.  Jesus says, "It is finished", meaning he fulfilled the purpose for which He came.

... M

So I should kill gay people, then repent? I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.

I don't understand either.

Maybe put the question this way: If I am walking down the street and I see a group of fundamentalist militant Jews beating a gay person to death while reciting from Leviticus, what should I do?

Should I keep walking?

Should I call the police?

Should I jump in and try to get in a few blows before the victim expires?

What would God want me to do?

Love your neighbor.

... M

[Mountaineer]

I really feel we are talking past each other.  Is there some basic question that is not yet identified?  What is the real issue in play here?  How can we better go about this?

... M

[MediumTex]

I would like to point at that nowhere in the Garden of Eden is Satan's name mentioned.

It was a serpent who caused all of the problems, not Satan.

Now, if we say that Satan was inhabiting the body of the serpent and controlling it, why wouldn't the writer have just said that?  That seems like a really important detail to leave out.

A plain reading of the text suggests that it was just a regular old talking snake, not Satan.

In fact, does Satan make any appearances in the Old Testament?  I don't recall any appearances, just like there is no mention of any afterlife at all in the Old Testament, and the smartest man in the world (Solomon) actually just came out and said that when you die they just bury you and that's it.

[Mountaineer]

I would like to point at that nowhere in the Garden of Eden is Satan's name mentioned.

It was a serpent who caused all of the problems, not Satan.

Now, if we say that Satan was inhabiting the body of the serpent and controlling it, why wouldn't the writer have just said that?  That seems like a really important detail to leave out.

A plain reading of the text suggests that it was just a regular old talking snake, not Satan.

In fact, does Satan make any appearances in the Old Testament?  I don't recall any appearances, just like there is no mention of any afterlife at all in the Old Testament, and the smartest man in the world (Solomon) actually just came out and said that when you die they just bury you and that's it.

http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=d&word=DEVIL

... M

[MediumTex]

I really feel we are talking past each other.  Is there some basic question that is not yet identified?  What is the real issue in play here?  How can we better go about this?

... M

You're right.

I'm actually just baiting you to see how many crazy things I can get you to say.

(Just kidding.  )

It would be nice to clear up some of this stuff, but there is a circularity in your reasoning and beliefs that is hard to sync up with.  Everything you say you believe seems to be anchored in assumptions about the truth of the thing that you are trying to show is true.

[MediumTex]

So I should kill gay people, then repent? I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.

I don't understand either.

Maybe put the question this way: If I am walking down the street and I see a group of fundamentalist militant Jews beating a gay person to death while reciting from Leviticus, what should I do?

Should I keep walking?

Should I call the police?

Should I jump in and try to get in a few blows before the victim expires?

What would God want me to do?

Love your neighbor.

... M

Which neighbor?

What if one of the fundamentalist militant Jews is getting tired and asks me to help him with the God-approved beating?  Wouldn't it be neighborly to help out with God's work?

[Mountaineer]

I don't understand either.

Maybe put the question this way: If I am walking down the street and I see a group of fundamentalist militant Jews beating a gay person to death while reciting from Leviticus, what should I do?

Should I keep walking?

Should I call the police?

Should I jump in and try to get in a few blows before the victim expires?

What would God want me to do?

Love your neighbor.

... M

Which neighbor?

What if one of the fundamentalist militant Jews is getting tired and asks me to help him with the God-approved beating?  Wouldn't it be neighborly to help out with God's work?

Surely you are not serious?  Come back with some serious questions please. 

... M

[Pointedstick]

Mountaineer, it sounds like what you are trying to say is that we are focusing on the wrong things, that we have missed the core of Jesus's message. I can understand and appreciate that. But then what should we do with the Old Testament? Much of it contradicts Jesus's message, like God's Levitical exhortation to kill homosexuals, while Jesus told people to to be less judgmental.

Is the Old Testament obsolete? Are the old rules no longer to be followed? Or only the ones that would be inconvenient in modern society?

[MediumTex]

Which neighbor?

What if one of the fundamentalist militant Jews is getting tired and asks me to help him with the God-approved beating?  Wouldn't it be neighborly to help out with God's work?

Surely you are not serious?  Come back with some serious questions please. 

... M

Something tells me that back in Leviticus days if I happened by a homo stoning and attempted to rescue the victim, I might just get stoned myself.  I'll bet if I said "Love your neighbor!  Love your neighbor!" they would just say: "This strange man is a sympathizer with the Anusites.  Kill him too!!!!!!!"

So I guess my question is about as serious as the situation we are talking about--i.e., ancient God-sanctioned hate crimes that we are reluctant to condemn today.

[MediumTex]

Mountaineer, it sounds like what you are trying to say is that we are focusing on the wrong things, that we have missed the core of Jesus's message. I can understand and appreciate that. But then what should we do with the Old Testament? Much of it contradicts Jesus's message, like God's Levitical exhortation to kill homosexuals, while Jesus told people to to be less judgmental.

Is the Old Testament obsolete? Are the old rules no longer to be followed? Or only the ones that would be inconvenient in modern society?

Even if Mountaineer wanted to agree with you he couldn't.

He must keep all of this coherent in his mind or his belief structure falls apart.

What I would say is that maybe some of the Bible is true, maybe the Hebrew God is the one true God, but if you are tasked with defending the truth of every single word in the Bible, that's an exhausting thing to try to do.

[Mountaineer]

I really feel we are talking past each other.  Is there some basic question that is not yet identified?  What is the real issue in play here?  How can we better go about this?

... M

You're right.

I'm actually just baiting you to see how many crazy things I can get you to say.

(Just kidding.  )

It would be nice to clear up some of this stuff, but there is a circularity in your reasoning and beliefs that is hard to sync up with.  Everything you say you believe seems to be anchored in assumptions about the truth of the thing that you are trying to show is true.

True!  Truth is truth whether one can see it or not.  Can you propose some questions to "break through"?  Seriously.  It all seems so very clear to me, and I'm not sure what is or is not clear to you.  Perhaps we are just stuck on "faith" or absence thereof.  Perhaps we are back to the beginning where I accept revealed knowledge as a source of truth and others do not.  We could go once again down the road of apologetics, first cause, mathematical probability, etc. but that usually gets nowhere.  Perhaps I should ask you, why do you think I see this so clearly?  What do you think my underlying presuppositions are?  How do they differ from yours?

... M

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer, it sounds like what you are trying to say is that we are focusing on the wrong things, that we have missed the core of Jesus's message. I can understand and appreciate that. But then what should we do with the Old Testament? Much of it contradicts Jesus's message, like God's Levitical exhortation to kill homosexuals, while Jesus told people to to be less judgmental.

Is the Old Testament obsolete? Are the old rules no longer to be followed? Or only the ones that would be inconvenient in modern society?

Short answer:  The OT is an account of how mankind spirals ever downward when they do not follow God.  I think it takes much analysis to understand but the key is to read the OT through the lens of the NT.  The whole OT points to the need for a Savior.  For example, read the 10 commandments, then the beatitudes as described by Jesus which make the 10 even harder to do.  It is completely impossible for man to do all that stuff, OT or NT.  The Scriptures are telling us, and rubbing our noses in it, that we cannot save ourselves - only Jesus can do that.  And he did.  For those who believe the promises.  I know the tendency is to pick apart every last word, I used to do that myself.  But once you see the forrest, the trees become easier to discern.  Until then, they are just a gazillion trees, all mysterious, all different, all puzzling, seemingly contradictory, seemingly bizarre.  I really wish I could help you see that but that is not the way it works.  You have to somehow see it for yourself via a gift from God.  Bottom line:  if you really want to understand, go to where God has promised to be, in Word and Sacrament, where two or three are gathered together.  That is not on an internet forum, in my opinion.  Faith comes by hearing.  http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... JUSTIFYING

... M

[Pointedstick]

If the whole point of the Old Testament is that man couldn't live up to a Godly standard, why did God repeatedly tell man to disobey His own Godly standard? Time and again He tells people to commit murder in particular, amongst other ways of breaking His own commandments.

Why? It seems a little like God was setting people up to fail on purpose. If your God tells you to do two contradictory things, which one should you do?

[Mountaineer]

A. If the whole point of the Old Testament is that man couldn't live up to a Godly standard, why did God repeatedly tell man to disobey His own Godly standard? Time and again He tells people to commit murder in particular, amongst other ways of breaking His own commandments.

B. Why? It seems a little like God was setting people up to fail on purpose. If your God tells you to do two contradictory things, which one should you do?

A. God uses all sorts of people and ways to accomplish his will.  For example, God used the pagan Assyrians and Babylonians to punish Israel for falling away from God.  God used the Israelites to punish the Caananites for sacrificing children to their god Moloch.  This is "sort of" like the concept of just war.  Just war is okay even though the soldiers are killing other people.  Sometimes evil must be defeated to prevent greater evil.  Murky situations, yes.

B. God has revealed His desires through the Scriptures and those are done.  I do not subscribe to the concept of God telling people to do stuff after the NT era ended.

... M

[Fred]

In fact, does Satan make any appearances in the Old Testament?  I don't recall any appearances, just like there is no mention of any afterlife at all in the Old Testament, and the smartest man in the world (Solomon) actually just came out and said that when you die they just bury you and that's it.

I think some translations identify Job's accuser as Satan but I believe the word is simply "adversary" and someone was just reading something into it. Other than that, I don't think we find the character in the Old Testament. It would be interesting to know where he came from because by Jesus' time it seemed to be standard theology. I'm thinking Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian captivity but that's just a guess. Haven't read too much on the subject yet.

Whoever wrote the book of Revelations seems to be making the same connection: "He seized the dragon--that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan--and bound him in chains for a thousand years."

So, was the serpent literally Satan or was this just some kind of allegorical character? And if this be true of Satan then what about Adam and Eve? I suspect the same. Someone is just telling a story and I think taking any of it literally is silly.

(Oh, and I seem to remember maybe in one very strange story (among so many others) that one translation says that Satan caused David to take a census of the people which ended up pissing God off so bad that he killed a lot of people).

(And speaking of the devil, what about the demons? I don't recall hearing anything about them in the Old Testament but by the time Jesus comes along they are all over the place. And then they seem to have disappeared again - or at least have been lying low).

[MediumTex]

And speaking of the devil, what about the demons? I don't recall hearing anything about them in the Old Testament but by the time Jesus comes along they are all over the place. And then they seem to have disappeared again - or at least have been lying low.

Like many midgets and dwarfs before them, my understanding is that Hollywood has become quite the magnet for demons, especially with all of the vampire and other occult-themed films that have been released in recent years.

My understanding is that the demons had a big falling out with the Catholic church a few years back.  I think that the dispute centered on the demons' belief that the priest pedophilia scandal was a false flag operation by the church intended to "demonize" the demons.

[Fred]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... o-science/

The most salient point:

"After five rounds of back-and-forth comments between the original poster and the challenger, the challenger has virtually no chance of receiving a delta, they write."

How many of us have already gone back and forth with Mountaineer at least 5 times in this thread. Probably time to give up and declare defeat.

[MediumTex]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... o-science/

The most salient point:

"After five rounds of back-and-forth comments between the original poster and the challenger, the challenger has virtually no chance of receiving a delta, they write."

How many of us have already gone back and forth with Mountaineer at least 5 times in this thread. Probably time to give up and declare defeat.

It depends on what your initial objective was.

I just like the opportunity to cover every square foot of a topic, whether or not anyone's mind is changed.

[jafs]

For me, one of the things that stood out about Mountaineer's view is that one should "read the OT through the lens of the NT".

Clearly, he and others find that this somehow unites the two parts of the Bible in some sort of satisfying way, and makes sense out of it.  But, to others, it's a way of distorting the OT to make it fit with the NT.

I find them starkly different in their portrayal of God, and the relationship between God and man, personally.

[Mountaineer]

For me, one of the things that stood out about Mountaineer's view is that one should "read the OT through the lens of the NT".

Clearly, he and others find that this somehow unites the two parts of the Bible in some sort of satisfying way, and makes sense out of it.  But, to others, it's a way of distorting the OT to make it fit with the NT.

I find them starkly different in their portrayal of God, and the relationship between God and man, personally.

Today is Ash Wednesday.  Many attend church today or tonight.  Many will have ashes imposed on their foreheads as a reminder that we ALL die a physical death.  From dust we came, and to dust we shall return.  Death is inevitable.  Death is ugly.  Death is stinky.  Death is not the original intention.  For many of us physial death is really the beginning of eternal life.  Thanks be to God! 

Basically, you could say that God the Father is the God of wrath (and that statement is a huge turn off for those who only want to hear about a God of love).  The God of wrath is the person most prominent in the OT, even though the preincarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present too.  The God of wrath cannot stand to have sin in his presence.  The God of wrath gets angry when He sees sin and He does not tolerate it.  Since man is sinful, we do not want to be in the God of wrath's presence - we would not last a nanosecond.  It is only because of what Jesus did on the cross (taking on all sin from all time and taking it to the grave) that we are saved from God's wrath, and eternal death.  Think of it like this:  Our Sin = Our Death.  Our Jesus = Our Sin.  Our Jesus = Our Death.  Jesus defeated death, rose from the grave, and since He is Our Jesus, we too have defeated death.  Jesus is the one most prominently discussed in the NT, the God of forgiveness and mercy even though He too gets angry when God is dissed.  Jesus does not promise us a life free from struggle.  In fact, Jesus indicates we will most likely have a life of suffering and for Christians probably more suffering than will the non-Christians; he says "pick up your cross and follow me" - he does not say, "follow me and enjoy temporal prosperity, a great sex life, a mcmansion on each continent, 4 cars, or a healthy life".  Christians have been, are, and will be persecuted for Jesus's sake.  Being a Christian is not for the faint of heart.  So, all that said, I can understand the last sentence in jafs' quote above.

I would also add, not only read the OT through the lens of the NT, but do not read either the OT or the NT through the lens of today's standards.  That is, be hesitant to judge the events portrayed in the Scriptures by today's cultural standards such as feminism or political correctness or acceptable homosexuality.  Discernment is a valuable attribute when reading Scripture.

... M

[Pointedstick]

The God of wrath is the person most prominent in the OT, even though the preincarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present too.  The God of wrath cannot stand to have sin in his presence.

Then why did he create the universe that way? Seems awful weird to create something that you cannot stand.

[jafs]

Yes it does.

[Mountaineer]

The God of wrath is the person most prominent in the OT, even though the preincarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present too.  The God of wrath cannot stand to have sin in his presence.

Then why did he create the universe that way? Seems awful weird to create something that you cannot stand.

Indeed!  Why sin? is one of those big questions that likely has no exact answer on this side of heaven.  Here is one attempt to address it; I'm not sure I totally buy it, but it is a start and has some Scripture references.  From my Lutheran perspective, this is getting mighty close to the "hidden side of God" that He, for whatever reason, has chosen not to reveal to us.  He just revealed enough that we could be saved, and that is what is most important.  The stuff He did not reveal tends to be the things we desperately pursue ....... wrongly.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-sin.html

... M

[Pointedstick]

I hope you can understand how disappointing and unsatisfying an answer that is. If God hates sin, but deliberately created the opportunity for it to exist via free will, then evidently he likes the features of human free will more than he hates sin, which kind of makes him seem like a big sadist given the cosmic consequences he set up for unsaved sinners--that is to say, the vast majority of humans who have ever lived.

[Pointedstick]

Forgetting about God for just a second, would you prefer to have been born a more robotic human, incapable of doing moral wrong?  Or would you rather be yourself, with your free will, with the capability of both great good and horrific evil?

I am very happy with the status quo. What offends me is being told that I was created this way on purpose by an entity that so hates and despises what he knows I'm going to do with my free will (everyone is a sinner, right?) that he plans to torture me forever unless I do one very very specific thing that is steeped in a mythology that is full of glaring internal contradictions and has no emotional resonance for me.