Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

Personally, I do not equate bad things happening because of God's punishment - I equate bad things happening because of original sin (Adam and the fall and the consequences of that for us and the whole creation) and actual sin (people do bad things that have consequences).

A classic case of rationalizing domestic abuse if ever there was one.

I said don't eat the fruit and you ate the God Damn fruit any way so I not only smacked you up side the head but cursed all your offspring forever and ever but don't blame it on me. It's all your own goddamn fault.

...said the guy who put the fruit there in the first place, knowing the curious nature of his creation.

If I treated my cats like God treated Adam and Eve for their curiosity and disobedience, I would be kicking cat ass every day, especially if I left a bunch of open cans of tuna sitting around with strict instructions that they not eat it.

[Mountaineer]

Sounds like an interesting book:  Michael Guillen’s newest book "Amazing Truths: How Science and the Bible Agree".

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/02/ ... cmp=hphz17

... M

Many people today see science and the Bible as a bitterly divorced couple and feel forced to take sides. It’s a real tragedy because notwithstanding the impression created by extremists on both sides, the two are in fact remarkably harmonious.

As a theoretical physicist and Christian, I have discovered at least ten fundamental truths that are affirmed by both modern science and ancient Scripture.

Does that surprise you? Are you skeptical? If you are, I don’t blame you: all of us are heavily influenced by media that relish playing up people arguing about the age of the earth, the role of evolution in our planet’s natural history, the reliability of science and so forth.

Lost in the noise and fury of these shouting matches are the voices of reason – and faith. Ratio et fides – what I call IQ and SQ (spiritual quotient) – operating peaceably and powerfully together, as they do in my own life. 

Chief among the ten truths that comprise the astonishing concurrence between science and the Bible is this one: Truth – absolute, objective truth – exists. In today’s post-modern world, this is no trivial consensus. It is huge, placing science and the Bible squarely against pop relativism.

An illustration of science’s belief in absolute truth is simple: if you and I jump from a tall building, we will both fall at roughly the same rate – 32 feet per second. There’s not one gravitational truth for you and another for me. There is only one law governing the behavior of gravity throughout the universe, it being a cornerstone of 21st-century physics.

Likewise, according to the Bible, there is not one god for you and another for me. There is only one God in the universe, he being the one described in Scripture.

Whether you believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God or merely a collection of myths and fables is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, when it comes to arguing for the existence of absolute truth, science and the Bible are not at odds. They are on the very same side.

The same accord exists for revelations concerning the behavior of time; hidden realities; logic and proof; the supernatural oddness of light; the very existence of our universe; the craziness of life; and the uniqueness of the human animal. In each instance, science and the Bible uphold identical truths.

What does this all mean to you and me? Everything. For starters, you should not be misled into believing that science advances at the expense of the Bible. Or that the Bible is outdated and irrelevant because it is ancient. Or that reason and progress are the enemies of faith, and vice versa.

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth.” Those are the words of Pope John Paul II, and I agree with them. In a lifetime spent sincerely seeking out what is true and trustworthy, I have discovered that relying on logic alone doesn’t cut it.  As Charles F. Kettering, the famous engineer and head of research at General Motors once observed, “Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence.”

Faith is required to make sense of life – faith in something or someone for which we cannot provide any “proof.” Some elect to have faith ultimately in themselves, others in the latest faddish ideas. I choose to have faith in the Bible – and, happily, in doing so, I don’t have to give up having faith in science as well.


Michael Guillen’s newest book "Amazing Truths: How Science and the Bible Agree" (HarperCollins) will be released on February 9, 2016. Born in East Los Angeles, he earned his BS from UCLA and his MS and PhD from Cornell University in physics, mathematics and astronomy. For 8 years he was an award-winning physics instructor at Harvard University. For 14 years he was the Emmy-award-winning science correspondent for ABC News, appearing regularly on "Good Morning America," "20/20," "Nightline," and "World News Tonight." Dr. Guillen is the host of the History Channel series, "Where Did It Come From?" and producer of the award-winning family movie "LITTLE RED WAGON." For more information, go to www.michaelguillen.com.

[jafs]

One can have faith without doing that, but it requires understanding that your faith isn't knowledge or absolute.

Of course it's absolute.

We're talking about a person's eternal fate.  The rules for going to the good place and avoiding the bad place are about as absolute as it gets.

That's the problem.

I tend to hew pretty closely to Jesus's ministry without the supernatural accoutrements that were added later for effect.  I find that message to be all the religion most people should need (i.e., kindness, humility, generosity and understanding), but I don't look down on or feel bad for people who don't find Jesus's message meaningful or true.  Maybe their belief system is one of the ones that was upstream from Jesus's teachings, and they are actually closer to the source in their beliefs than I am in mine.

The subject matter may be about absolute issues, but faith isn't absolute knowledge.  Once you realize that and are ok with it, you have no need to convert others or look down on them.

We're all just muddling along, trying to figure this stuff out, and our ability to do that is limited.

[jafs]

If you take monotheism seriously, God created the whole thing.

That means everything and the nature of everything, including Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, etc.

Most people don't really believe in this way - they have a sort of Manichean view that there is an ongoing battle between God and the Devil.  That's a much better framework to explain why bad stuff happens, of course.

[MediumTex]

If you take monotheism seriously, God created the whole thing.

That means everything and the nature of everything, including Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, etc.

Most people don't really believe in this way - they have a sort of Manichean view that there is an ongoing battle between God and the Devil.  That's a much better framework to explain why bad stuff happens, of course.

There is clearly a battle between good and evil in the world and within each of us, and I think that most of us intuitively feel that doing good is better than doing evil, while recognizing that doing evil can often be more fun at the time.

My problem with the Old Testament God is that he seems to be doing evil much of the time, even by his own standards.

[Mountaineer]

If you take monotheism seriously, God created the whole thing.

That means everything and the nature of everything, including Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, etc.

Most people don't really believe in this way - they have a sort of Manichean view that there is an ongoing battle between God and the Devil.  That's a much better framework to explain why bad stuff happens, of course.

There is clearly a battle between good and evil in the world and within each of us, and I think that most of us intuitively feel that doing good is better than doing evil, while recognizing that doing evil can often be more fun at the time.

My problem with the Old Testament God is that he seems to be doing evil much of the time, even by his own standards.

Have you considered it is those in the OT who have rejected God or disobeyed Him are the ones doing the evil and God, being a just God, is giving them what they deserve?

This is like humans in a war, e.g. Hitler did evil, and the USA just gave him what he deserved.  I'm sure from evil Hitler's perspective though, he probably viewed it as the evil USA coming after him without cause. 

... M

[Mountaineer]

If you take monotheism seriously, God created the whole thing.

That means everything and the nature of everything, including Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, etc.

Most people don't really believe in this way - they have a sort of Manichean view that there is an ongoing battle between God and the Devil.  That's a much better framework to explain why bad stuff happens, of course.

There is clearly a battle between good and evil in the world and within each of us, and I think that most of us intuitively feel that doing good is better than doing evil, while recognizing that doing evil can often be more fun at the time.

My problem with the Old Testament God is that he seems to be doing evil much of the time, even by his own standards.

MT,

You might enjoy this description of surd evil.  It seems somewhat consistent with your battle of good and evil comment.

LINK

... M

[MediumTex]

If you take monotheism seriously, God created the whole thing.

That means everything and the nature of everything, including Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the serpent, the apple, etc.

Most people don't really believe in this way - they have a sort of Manichean view that there is an ongoing battle between God and the Devil.  That's a much better framework to explain why bad stuff happens, of course.

There is clearly a battle between good and evil in the world and within each of us, and I think that most of us intuitively feel that doing good is better than doing evil, while recognizing that doing evil can often be more fun at the time.

My problem with the Old Testament God is that he seems to be doing evil much of the time, even by his own standards.

Have you considered it is those in the OT who have rejected God or disobeyed Him are the ones doing the evil and God, being a just God, is giving them what they deserve?

This is like humans in a war, e.g. Hitler did evil, and the USA just gave him what he deserved.  I'm sure from evil Hitler's perspective though, he probably viewed it as the evil USA coming after him without cause. 

... M

A lot of the God-sanctioned raping, pillaging and genocide in the Old Testament arose in the context of what were essentially political disputes.

I think that a lot of the people who got wiped out at God's command in the Old Testament were from tribes that had never even heard of the Jewish God.

Even among your own tribe, do homosexuals deserve to be murdered?  That was God's position in the Old Testament.  Would murdering someone because they were gay make you feel righteous, or would it make you feel evil?  I can't imagine a more cruel and brutal act than doing something like that.

[Mountaineer]

There is clearly a battle between good and evil in the world and within each of us, and I think that most of us intuitively feel that doing good is better than doing evil, while recognizing that doing evil can often be more fun at the time.

My problem with the Old Testament God is that he seems to be doing evil much of the time, even by his own standards.

Have you considered it is those in the OT who have rejected God or disobeyed Him are the ones doing the evil and God, being a just God, is giving them what they deserve?

This is like humans in a war, e.g. Hitler did evil, and the USA just gave him what he deserved.  I'm sure from evil Hitler's perspective though, he probably viewed it as the evil USA coming after him without cause. 

... M

A lot of the God-sanctioned raping, pillaging and genocide in the Old Testament arose in the context of what were essentially political disputes.

I think that a lot of the people who got wiped out at God's command in the Old Testament were from tribes that had never even heard of the Jewish God.

Even among your own tribe, do homosexuals deserve to be murdered?  That was God's position in the Old Testament.  Would murdering someone because they were gay make you feel righteous, or would it make you feel evil?  I can't imagine a more cruel and brutal act than doing something like that.

1.  Why do you think that?

2.  It is immaterial what I think.  Vengence is mine, says the Lord.  Your statement indicates, once again, that you wish to be God and do what you think is "right" by your standards, not God's.  Dangerous turf, that is the original sin.  My understanding of Scripture. 

... M

[MediumTex]

A lot of the God-sanctioned raping, pillaging and genocide in the Old Testament arose in the context of what were essentially political disputes.

I think that a lot of the people who got wiped out at God's command in the Old Testament were from tribes that had never even heard of the Jewish God.

Even among your own tribe, do homosexuals deserve to be murdered?  That was God's position in the Old Testament.  Would murdering someone because they were gay make you feel righteous, or would it make you feel evil?  I can't imagine a more cruel and brutal act than doing something like that.

1.  Why do you think that?

Why do I think that other tribes in the ancient Middle East had their own gods and their own religions?  I guess because we have all of the archaeological evidence that shows us that they did.

2.  It is immaterial what I think.  Vengence is mine, says the Lord.  Your statement indicates, once again, that you wish to be God and do what you think is "right" by your standards, not God's.  Dangerous turf, that is the original sin.  My understanding of Scripture.

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

If I say that I don't think we should murder gay people, even though the Old Testament says it is God's will, are you saying that this is just original sin manifesting in me? 

Are you saying that my basic desire not to murder someone who hasn't harmed me in any way is evidence of my rebellion against God?

If your pastor asked you to do a drive-by shooting at a k.d. lang concert, would you do it?  If not, why not?  You're only following God's wishes as they were clearly articulated in the Old Testament.  There wouldn't be anything wrong with that, right?

What about pork?  God said not to eat it in the Old Testament.  If I eat it today (as I just did in the form of a lovely pulled pork sandwich), is that original sin manifesting in me?

It feels like you are hewing to a set of ancient and obsolete social norms in the same way that Wahhabi Islam does.

[Mountaineer]

A lot of the God-sanctioned raping, pillaging and genocide in the Old Testament arose in the context of what were essentially political disputes.

I think that a lot of the people who got wiped out at God's command in the Old Testament were from tribes that had never even heard of the Jewish God.

Even among your own tribe, do homosexuals deserve to be murdered?  That was God's position in the Old Testament.  Would murdering someone because they were gay make you feel righteous, or would it make you feel evil?  I can't imagine a more cruel and brutal act than doing something like that.

1.  Why do you think that?

Why do I think that other tribes in the ancient Middle East had their own gods and their own religions?  I guess because we have all of the archaeological evidence that shows us that they did.  THAT IS NOT WHAT I ASKED.  I ASKED WHY YOU THINK THOSE OTHERS HAD NOT HEARD OF THE JEWISH GOD.

2.  It is immaterial what I think.  Vengence is mine, says the Lord.  Your statement indicates, once again, that you wish to be God and do what you think is "right" by your standards, not God's.  Dangerous turf, that is the original sin.  My understanding of Scripture.

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

If I say that I don't think we should murder gay people, even though the Old Testament says it is God's will, are you saying that this is just original sin manifesting in me?  I'M SAYING THAT WHATEVER GOD DESIDES IS RIGHT BY HIS RULES IS GOD'S BUSINESS, NOT MINE.  FROM MY HUMAN PERSPECTIVE, I AGREE WITH YOU THAT WE SHOULD NOT MURDER GAY PEOPLE, OR ANYONE ELSE.  I ALSO DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT IT IS GOD'S WILL TO KILL ALL GAY PEOPLE; I THINK GOD WOULD WANT THEM TO REPENT, TURN FROM THEIR SIN TO GOD AND WHAT HE SAYS IS RIGHT LIVING.

Are you saying that my basic desire not to murder someone who hasn't harmed me in any way is evidence of my rebellion against God?  HUH?

If your pastor asked you to do a drive-by shooting at a k.d. lang concert, would you do it?  If not, why not?  OF COURSE NOT, GOD SAYS DO NOT MURDER.  MY PASTOR IS A SINFUL HUMAN, SUBJECT TO ALL THE SAME FLAWS OF HUMANNESS THAT YOU AND I ARE SUBJECT TO. You're only following God's wishes as they were clearly articulated in the Old Testament.  There wouldn't be anything wrong with that, right?  WRONG.

What about pork?  God said not to eat it in the Old Testament.  If I eat it today (as I just did in the form of a lovely pulled pork sandwich), is that original sin manifesting in me?  NO.  I ALSO LIKE PULLED PORK!    BUT, SERIOUSLY, THOSE OT DIETARY RULES NO LONGER APPLY.  READ THE PAULINE EPISTLES. 

It feels like you are hewing to a set of ancient and obsolete social norms in the same way that Wahhabi Islam does.  DO NOT DEPEND ON YOUR FEELING (SUBJECTIVE); GO WITH WHAT GOD'S REVEALED WORD SAYS (OBJECTIVE TRUTH).

My comments are in CAPS in your original post.  Cheers!

... M

[Fred]

Dangerous turf, that is the original sin.  My understanding of Scripture. 

You bring up the concept of original sin a lot as an explanation for why there is evil in the world and it all fits in a nice, simple package with "the fall" but I don't think you are actually getting that from "Scripture".

According to the Bible, God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit "on the day that that you eat of it you shall surely die" (depending on what translation you are reading). Where do you actually see the curse on every living thing including disease, natural disasters, and all manner of suffering in this world and the next in that simple statement? I mean, shouldn't God have spelled it out better what would happen according to this doctrine of original sin that you hold so they would really know what the consequences would be for all eternity for billions of humans, animals, and other creatures?

And they didn't even die on the same day. According to the Bible, Adam lived to be almost 1,000 years old.

I'm not too familiar with where this doctrine actually comes from but I will probably do some reading about it when I have more time. I'm thinking maybe it was Saint Augustine.

[Fred]

Chief among the ten truths that comprise the astonishing concurrence between science and the Bible is this one: Truth – absolute, objective truth – exists. In today’s post-modern world, this is no trivial consensus. It is huge, placing science and the Bible squarely against pop relativism.

Wow. I wasn't aware that science had proven that absolute, objective truth exists. I must have missed the headline.

[MediumTex]

Mountaineer,

I know the answer to this question, but I am going to ask it anyway.

Does it ever occur to you that maybe some of the Bible was written as more of a set of cultural norms from thousands of years ago, rather than a set of inflexible commands from God that should never be questioned for all of eternity?

It just seems very strange to place so much faith in the inerrancy of a book that has countless internal contradictions, and which was clearly tweaked here and there by scribes to make it hold together better as time passed (as was the customary practice of scribes of the time).

Even if I were willing to accept that the Hebrew God is the one true God, I would still wonder whether all of those mystical ancient people wrote everything down exactly right when the custom of the time was to embellish accounts of supernatural events.

[MediumTex]

It feels like you are hewing to a set of ancient and obsolete social norms in the same way that Wahhabi Islam does.  DO NOT DEPEND ON YOUR FEELING (SUBJECTIVE); GO WITH WHAT GOD'S REVEALED WORD SAYS (OBJECTIVE TRUTH).

I can think of few things more subjective than humanity's interpretation of God's "Revealed Word."

Even today, you can go to 10 different churches and hear 10 different interpretations of what the Bible is supposed to mean.

Gravity is objective truth.  The Bible is subjective hearsay and has always been a Rorschach Test for the societies interpreting it.  One society may see an apocalyptic end times message, another society may see a pretext to torture people to cleanse their souls, and another society may see a rationale for wealth and prosperity.  That's what a subjective text like the Bible gives you: wildly different interpretations based upon the cultural needs of a society at a given point in time.

[Mountaineer]

Dangerous turf, that is the original sin.  My understanding of Scripture. 

You bring up the concept of original sin a lot as an explanation for why there is evil in the world and it all fits in a nice, simple package with "the fall" but I don't think you are actually getting that from "Scripture".

According to the Bible, God said to Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit "on the day that that you eat of it you shall surely die" (depending on what translation you are reading). Where do you actually see the curse on every living thing including disease, natural disasters, and all manner of suffering in this world and the next in that simple statement? I mean, shouldn't God have spelled it out better what would happen according to this doctrine of original sin that you hold so they would really know what the consequences would be for all eternity for billions of humans, animals, and other creatures?

And they didn't even die on the same day. According to the Bible, Adam lived to be almost 1,000 years old.

I'm not too familiar with where this doctrine actually comes from but I will probably do some reading about it when I have more time. I'm thinking maybe it was Saint Augustine.

The curse from Genesis Chapter 3:
14 The Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
    cursed are you above all livestock
    and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
    and dust you shall eat
    all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[e] and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
    and you shall bruise his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for[f] your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

As to "you shall surely die" - that is the eternal death, not necessarily the temporal death.

Here is some info on original sin and the Scripture references from the Lutheran perspective: 
http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp? ... N.ORIGINAL

... M

[Pointedstick]

I ALSO DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT IT IS GOD'S WILL TO KILL ALL GAY PEOPLE; I THINK GOD WOULD WANT THEM TO REPENT, TURN FROM THEIR SIN TO GOD AND WHAT HE SAYS IS RIGHT LIVING.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So which is it? Don't commit murder, or kill gays?

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

I know the answer to this question, but I am going to ask it anyway.

Does it ever occur to you that maybe some of the Bible was written as more of a set of cultural norms from thousands of years ago, rather than a set of inflexible commands from God that should never be questioned for all of eternity?  OF COURSE!  I AM A SINFUL HUMAN AND OUR NATURE IS TO REBEL AGAINST GOD (ORIGINAL SIN ONCE AGAIN REARS ITS UGLY HEAD). 

It just seems very strange to place so much faith in the inerrancy of a book that has countless internal contradictions, and which was clearly tweaked here and there by scribes to make it hold together better as time passed (as was the customary practice of scribes of the time).

Even if I were willing to accept that the Hebrew God is the one true God, I would still wonder whether all of those mystical ancient people wrote everything down exactly right when the custom of the time was to embellish accounts of supernatural events. OK, THAT IS NATURAL TO WONDER THAT.  WHERE I SHAKE OUT THOUGH, IS GOD IS IN CHARGE AND GAVE ME FAITH.  YOUR MILEAGE MAY DIFFER - IN FACT, I THINK MANY OR MOST PEOPLE'S MILAGE DIFFERS.

All I can say on your questions in addition to the above in CAPS is that I believe God's Word as He chose to tell it to us in the Scriptures, and what has been written is exactly what God wanted to be written.  I also do not think there are internal contradictions, just our inability to understand.  That is, what you think is a contradiction, I may not, and vice versa.  Once one starts to doubt any of God's Word, why believe any of it?  Just because I think something does not make sense to my reason, why should I presume that I know more than the Creator of everything?  Pretty arrogant in my view.  I do not think that everything that is true can be proven by our very limited human reason - although I would agree with you (I think) that we humans have an insatiable desire to think we are smarter than we are. 

... M

[Fred]

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

Where is the mention of the curse on Adam's offspring as well as the rest of God's perfect creation that includes all of the things you believe it includes?

I don't see it. Seems like pure conjecture and letting one's imagination run wild to me.

And more important, where do you see the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell in there?

[MediumTex]

Was there a reporter there writing everything down that God said to Adam, Eve and the Serpent?

How do we know that's what was actually said if the person who wrote about it wasn't even there when it happened?

Even if that is what happened, where do we get that the whole world is cursed?  It seems like God was just mad at Adam, Eve and the serpent.  Where does it say that all humans, animals and plants were to be cursed for all of eternity?  That seems like a pretty expansive interpretation to me.

Sorry if it sounds like I am being obstinate today.  Some of the stuff you are posting just seems really out there, even though I know that most of it is pretty standard beliefs among a lot of Christians.

It just seems like Jesus would read a lot of the stuff you are writing and he would say: "You are focusing on the wrong things.  Just love each other.  Love yourself.  Be kind.  Be humble.  If you do those things you will feel my presence.  Don't focus on the minutiae of the Bible.  It obviously has a lot of errors in it.  Remember that part in the Gospel of John where there was a big earthquake when I died that the other Gospels somehow failed to mention?  The Bible is full of stuff like that.  Don't let it get you bogged down.  People back then liked to exaggerate."

[Mountaineer]

I ALSO DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT IT IS GOD'S WILL TO KILL ALL GAY PEOPLE; I THINK GOD WOULD WANT THEM TO REPENT, TURN FROM THEIR SIN TO GOD AND WHAT HE SAYS IS RIGHT LIVING.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So which is it? Don't commit murder, or kill gays?

Which is it?  Admit you are a sinner, repent, and know that God forgives you because of what Jesus did on the cross.  "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it", says Jesus.  Jesus says, "It is finished", meaning he fulfilled the purpose for which He came.

... M

[Pointedstick]

Which is it?  Admit you are a sinner, repent, and know that God forgives you because of what Jesus did on the cross.  "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it", says Jesus.  Jesus says, "It is finished", meaning he fulfilled the purpose for which He came.

... M

So I should kill gay people, then repent? I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.

[MediumTex]

All I can say on your questions in addition to the above in CAPS is that I believe God's Word as He chose to tell it to us in the Scriptures, and what has been written is exactly what God wanted to be written.

Eh, but what about the books that got left out of the final version?  How do we know God wanted those books left out?  If humans were making those editorial decisions, how do we know they didn't make an error?  Based on our sinful nature, I would assume that most of their editorial decisions were wrong.

I also do not think there are internal contradictions, just our inability to understand.  That is, what you think is a contradiction, I may not, and vice versa.  Once one starts to doubt any of God's Word, why believe any of it?

Because parts of it are probably true.  I would think that the role of the sincere believer would be to identify those parts that are true, while putting aside the raping, baby killing, pillaging and genocide.

Just because I think something does not make sense to my reason, why should I presume that I know more than the Creator of everything?

Maybe because the notion itself that there is a Creator of everything came from the pen of another sinful semi-literate human who in many cases was writing about things that had happened dozens or hundreds of years before.  Why put so much stock in the inerrancy of scribes who were often reporting things that had come to them second or third hand?  You know that game "Telephone"?  What does it teach us about what happens to a complex story the more times it is told?

Pretty arrogant in my view.  I do not think that everything that is true can be proven by our very limited human reason - although I would agree with you (I think) that we humans have an insatiable desire to think we are smarter than we are.

Respectfully, it sounds far more arrogant to me to presume that there is a supernatural being who made the world for us and who loves us, but who decided to make most of us suffer for all of eternity, and who decided to stop writing to us 2,000 years ago.

[Mountaineer]

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

Where is the mention of the curse on Adam's offspring as well as the rest of God's perfect creation that includes all of the things you believe it includes?

I don't see it. Seems like pure conjecture and letting one's imagination run wild to me.

The curse from Genesis Chapter 3:
14 The Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this,
    cursed are you above all livestock
    and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
    and dust you shall eat
    all the days of your life.

[Satan is cursed, moreso than all the livestock]

15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
    and you shall bruise his heel.”
[enmity between Satan and all humans - a curse - things will not be the way God intended before the curse]
[but also notice, this is the first Gospel in the Scriptures - Satan can only bruise the heel, man (foreshadowing that Christ defeats Satan on the cross for all time) will bruise (some translations say crush) Satan's head]

16 To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.”
[not the way God intended things to be before the curse]

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
[all creation cursed]

    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”
[not the way God intended things to be before the curse - death enters the creation, that in my view is the ultimate curse]

... M

[MediumTex]

Which is it?  Admit you are a sinner, repent, and know that God forgives you because of what Jesus did on the cross.  "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it", says Jesus.  Jesus says, "It is finished", meaning he fulfilled the purpose for which He came.

... M

So I should kill gay people, then repent? I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.

I don't understand either.

Maybe put the question this way: If I am walking down the street and I see a group of fundamentalist militant Jews beating a gay person to death while reciting from Leviticus, what should I do?

Should I keep walking?

Should I call the police?

Should I jump in and try to get in a few blows before the victim expires?

What would God want me to do?