Figuring Out Religion

[screwtape]

I found this to be an interesting read on why Liberal Christianity doesn't work. I think if you are going to be a Christian you ought to be like Mountaineer and Greg and just accept the whole thing and be ready to defend it. By attempting to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of jettisoning the whole thing, I think liberal Christians end up in more of a conundrum than "true believers".

(No offense to any liberal Christians intended).

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/ ... html#bible

[Pointedstick]

I found this to be an interesting read on why Liberal Christianity doesn't work. I think if you are going to be a Christian you ought to be like Mountaineer and Greg and just accept the whole thing and be ready to defend it. By attempting to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of jettisoning the whole thing, I think liberal Christians end up in more of a conundrum than "true believers".

(No offense to any liberal Christians intended).

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/ ... html#bible

Yes, I agree, and this matches up with what I've seen. Once you go down the road of interpreting the Bible as metaphorical, you can find whatever meaning you want and turn it into a totally alien religion. My retired pastor father-in-law doesn't even believe in Hell.

[moda0306]

I found this to be an interesting read on why Liberal Christianity doesn't work. I think if you are going to be a Christian you ought to be like Mountaineer and Greg and just accept the whole thing and be ready to defend it. By attempting to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of jettisoning the whole thing, I think liberal Christians end up in more of a conundrum than "true believers".

(No offense to any liberal Christians intended).

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/ ... html#bible

I agree! 

I also like the famous C.S. Lewis quote:

Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

I disagree.

If people believe something not only about reality, but about eternity and morality, it affects outcomes.  Christianity is of tremendous importance whether it is true or not true.

And while liberal Christians heap an amount of difficulty on themselves, I see it not in any way unique.  The Bible isn't consistent just because someone says so and claims to follow it.  IMO, one can't be consistent within any sort of "convinced" form of details of Christianity, and any attempt to be so is no different than a liberal who wants to mold an already inconsistent set of religious assertions into something simply more convenient yet just as inconsistent.

But that's just me.  I can understand your position.  The problem is, Christianity is either "conservative," and ludicrous on its face, or "liberal," and so meaningless and pliable that it has few implications on us.  Taking the "ludicrous on its face" side isn't really something to hang your hat on.

[Mountaineer]

I found this to be an interesting read on why Liberal Christianity doesn't work. I think if you are going to be a Christian you ought to be like Mountaineer and Greg and just accept the whole thing and be ready to defend it. By attempting to avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water instead of jettisoning the whole thing, I think liberal Christians end up in more of a conundrum than "true believers".

(No offense to any liberal Christians intended).

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/ ... html#bible

I agree! 

I also like the famous C.S. Lewis quote:

Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

I disagree.

If people believe something not only about reality, but about eternity and morality, it affects outcomes.  Christianity is of tremendous importance whether it is true or not true.

And while liberal Christians heap an amount of difficulty on themselves, I see it not in any way unique.  The Bible isn't consistent just because someone says so and claims to follow it.  IMO, one can't be consistent within any sort of "convinced" form of details of Christianity, and any attempt to be so is no different than a liberal who wants to mold an already inconsistent set of religious assertions into something simply more convenient yet just as inconsistent.

But that's just me.  I can understand your position.  The problem is, Christianity is either "conservative," and ludicrous on its face, or "liberal," and so meaningless and pliable that it has few implications on us.  Taking the "ludicrous on its face" side isn't really something to hang your hat on.

I would use the terms "traditional" and "confessional" for Christianity as interpreted for a couple thousand years - until us "weird do it our way Americanos and the I know better than you do Germans" got ahold of it in the 1800s - and stay away from conservative and liberal terminology which has far too many political overtones, but that is just me.

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Yes, I agree, and this matches up with what I've seen. Once you go down the road of interpreting the Bible as metaphorical, you can find whatever meaning you want and turn it into a totally alien religion. My retired pastor father-in-law doesn't even believe in Hell.

Is that because it was an invention of the Catholic Church?  It's easy to conflate "Purgatory" with "Hell".  What about "Satan"?

[Mountaineer]

Good sermon - what the future holds. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYIusb ... ploademail

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Good sermon - what the future holds. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYIusb ... ploademail

Is that what a Lutheran service looks like?  I'm impressed by the cross.  You guys get a lot of brownie points for trying to get back to the source!

I think it would be very interesting if you and Ad Orientum would publically debate your respective theology's.

[Mountaineer]

Good sermon - what the future holds. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYIusb ... ploademail

Is that what a Lutheran service looks like?  I'm impressed by the cross.  You guys get a lot of brownie points for trying to get back to the source!

I think it would be very interesting if you and Ad Orientum would publically debate your respective theology's.

Hey, I don't want to disapoint you but I think Ad Orientum's theology is quite solid.  The difference between his and mine (0.001) - we both believe in the real presence and very much other stuff - and the difference between ours and Bhuddism, Islam, Hinduism, atheism, agnosticism, secularism, meism, hedonism, etc. is huge (0.999).  Just my opinion however, AO can speak for himself.  If the LCMS did not exist, I'd very quickly consider Greek, Russian, or Antiochian Orthodox.  I don't want to further disapoint you, but I'm also not disgusted by icons. 

As for getting back to the source, that is what LCMS theology is - no intent to start a new religion, just get back to true Christianity before all the corruption had crept in.

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

Folks who sit around in a church every Sunday for whatever reason, while holding no belief in what's being taught ... well, I find that sad, and an utter waste of time.  I will never understand the nominal "religious" folks who just want to hang out in a church even though they really don't believe in much of anything Biblical.  Go outside, get a little sunshine.  Eat, drink and be merry.

It's the community and culture. Something we libertarian-minded folks all too often overlook. If Christianity were bereft of its community elements, I suspect it would almost vanish. The same is probably true of most religions, frankly.

[screwtape]

....just get back to true Christianity before all the corruption had crept in.

Good luck with that endeavor. Be careful or you'll end up like me.

[Mountaineer]

....just get back to true Christianity before all the corruption had crept in.

Good luck with that endeavor. Be careful or you'll end up like me.

Hey, you sound like a nice guy!  We can toast together if that happens. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Great, short 3-minute video:  How To Read The Bible (from White Horse Inn's Dr. Horton):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=y ... pp=desktop

That is great.  Thanks.  I really like the White Horse Inn podcasts, they are quite good.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Great, short 3-minute video:  How To Read The Bible (from White Horse Inn's Dr. Horton):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=y ... pp=desktop

That is great.  Thanks.  I really like the White Horse Inn podcasts, they are quite good.

... Mountaineer

Yeah, I like them too.  There was a podcast on Galatians that was really excellent.  I need to find that one and listen again.

Yesterday's (June 21) White Horse Inn podcast was really good.  It discussed many of the things people are looking for in a religion:  guide for life, wisdom, spiritual guru, mainly looking within ** for answers, very Law based, and how few people understand what Christianity is really about - Christ and him crucified, Gospel based, what he did for us.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/entry ... -of-christ

** Self-invented meaning has no relation to any objective reality. If one begins with the assumption that the universe is meaningless, or that any meaning it has is fundamentally unintelligible, then constructing meaning is like looking for faces in the clouds - it is imposing an interpretation that isn't objectively there. But one cannot befriend, pray to, or otherwise have any genuine relationship with a face one sees in the clouds; it is make-believe and we always remain aware of that. For there to be genuine meaning, it has to be objectively there whether we discern it or not, which means we can't have invented it.

I can look at an old piece of machinery and wonder what purpose it served. I don't know, but I assume it is the shape it is for a reason, that there is meaning behind it. If I look at a piece of driftwood I can imagine all kinds of uses for it, but I can't pretend it is the shape it is for any of those purposes apart from my imagination. When looking at the universe, a Christian, or really any kind of theist, is like one looking at a piece of machinery, a made thing with a mind, will, and purpose behind it. An atheist is like one looking at the clouds or a piece of driftwood and concocting a comforting meaning behind it. Whatever answers they come up with, even if they nearly the same, are nevertheless fundamentally different in that the former may or may not be objectively true but the latter most certainly isn't. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Yeah, I like them too.  There was a podcast on Galatians that was really excellent.  I need to find that one and listen again.

Yesterday's (June 21) White Horse Inn podcast was really good.  It discussed many of the things people are looking for in a religion:  guide for life, wisdom, spiritual guru, mainly looking within ** for answers, very Law based, and how few people understand what Christianity is really about - Christ and him crucified, Gospel based, what he did for us.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/entry ... -of-christ

** Self-invented meaning has no relation to any objective reality. If one begins with the assumption that the universe is meaningless, or that any meaning it has is fundamentally unintelligible, then constructing meaning is like looking for faces in the clouds - it is imposing an interpretation that isn't objectively there. But one cannot befriend, pray to, or otherwise have any genuine relationship with a face one sees in the clouds; it is make-believe and we always remain aware of that. For there to be genuine meaning, it has to be objectively there whether we discern it or not, which means we can't have invented it.

I can look at an old piece of machinery and wonder what purpose it served. I don't know, but I assume it is the shape it is for a reason, that there is meaning behind it. If I look at a piece of driftwood I can imagine all kinds of uses for it, but I can't pretend it is the shape it is for any of those purposes apart from my imagination. When looking at the universe, a Christian, or really any kind of theist, is like one looking at a piece of machinery, a made thing with a mind, will, and purpose behind it. An atheist is like one looking at the clouds or a piece of driftwood and concocting a comforting meaning behind it. Whatever answers they come up with, even if they nearly the same, are nevertheless fundamentally different in that the former may or may not be objectively true but the latter most certainly isn't. 

... Mountaineer

i don't expect it will be seen by those who believe or have faith, but essentially what the bolded above is saying is, that imaginary friends that you make up are not real and of no use and not objective.. so the imaginary friend we have made up (in the same way) must be real of use and objective because we need him to be...  no proof of non imaginary status required...  it is so because we declare it thus,  and other imaginary friends are not because we have declared ours are...

i get that this actually works in the minds of believers.. but its a impossible sell to those who need reason and logic..

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

I know, I know: original sin. This is your answer and it works for you. It is also a non-answer that absolves you of the responsibility of trying to figure out the reasons behind these sad events. ISIS taking over the middle east? That's just man's sinful nature. Forget about the fact that Bush destroyed Iraq, a regional counterweight to terrorism. Racial violence? More sin. Forget about welfare, the drug war, and a broken culture. Backstabbing politics? Don't bother to notice the trend of political self-segregation that logically results in the election of more extreme politicians given the composition of our political system.

None of these things were inevitable. They were the result of bad decisions. Bad decisions could have been better decisions. But if instead, all of creation is cursed, why bother trying to fix anything? Why even bother trying to understand anything? What's the point? Just keep on trucking until you die at which point if you believed in God and Jesus, you experience everlasting bliss, right?

[screwtape]

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

I know, I know: original sin. This is your answer and it works for you. It is also a non-answer that absolves you of the responsibility of trying to figure out the reasons behind these sad events. ISIS taking over the middle east? That's just man's sinful nature. Forget about the fact that Bush destroyed Iraq, a regional counterweight to terrorism. Racial violence? More sin. Forget about welfare, the drug war, and a broken culture. Backstabbing politics? Don't bother to notice the trend of political self-segregation that logically results in the election of more extreme politicians given the composition of our political system.

None of these things were inevitable. They were the result of bad decisions. Bad decisions could have been better decisions. But if instead, all of creation is cursed, why bother trying to fix anything? Why even bother trying to understand anything? What's the point? Just keep on trucking until you die at which point if you believed in God and Jesus, you experience everlasting bliss, right?

Preach it bro. MT obviously isn't completing his mission very well.

[Greg]

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

I know, I know: original sin. This is your answer and it works for you. It is also a non-answer that absolves you of the responsibility of trying to figure out the reasons behind these sad events. ISIS taking over the middle east? That's just man's sinful nature. Forget about the fact that Bush destroyed Iraq, a regional counterweight to terrorism. Racial violence? More sin. Forget about welfare, the drug war, and a broken culture. Backstabbing politics? Don't bother to notice the trend of political self-segregation that logically results in the election of more extreme politicians given the composition of our political system.

None of these things were inevitable. They were the result of bad decisions. Bad decisions could have been better decisions. But if instead, all of creation is cursed, why bother trying to fix anything? Why even bother trying to understand anything? What's the point? Just keep on trucking until you die at which point if you believed in God and Jesus, you experience everlasting bliss, right?

1.) Humanity is in darkness. We instinctively stray into darkness if we're not paying attention.
2.) The world will get darker.
3.) We are supposed to be light in the darkness, even if we're just a small candle for others to see.
4.) Others will see things they don't like in the light and will retreat into the darkness. Our job is to be this light and to attract more light from others.

We are to be the good in this world, to be good to ourselves, to others, to the Earth, and to God. Through our actions, others will see our good and perhaps be persuaded to join in even though the world is crashing down. Gotta do something while you're here, might as well be something good.

[NWODurruti]

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

I know, I know: original sin. This is your answer and it works for you. It is also a non-answer that absolves you of the responsibility of trying to figure out the reasons behind these sad events. ISIS taking over the middle east? That's just man's sinful nature. Forget about the fact that Bush destroyed Iraq, a regional counterweight to terrorism. Racial violence? More sin. Forget about welfare, the drug war, and a broken culture. Backstabbing politics? Don't bother to notice the trend of political self-segregation that logically results in the election of more extreme politicians given the composition of our political system.

None of these things were inevitable. They were the result of bad decisions. Bad decisions could have been better decisions. But if instead, all of creation is cursed, why bother trying to fix anything? Why even bother trying to understand anything? What's the point? Just keep on trucking until you die at which point if you believed in God and Jesus, you experience everlasting bliss, right?

1.) Humanity is in darkness. We instinctively stray into darkness if we're not paying attention.
2.) The world will get darker.
3.) We are supposed to be light in the darkness, even if we're just a small candle for others to see.
4.) Others will see things they don't like in the light and will retreat into the darkness. Our job is to be this light and to attract more light from others.

We are to be the good in this world, to be good to ourselves, to others, to the Earth, and to God. Through our actions, others will see our good and perhaps be persuaded to join in even though the world is crashing down. Gotta do something while you're here, might as well be something good.

Hello First Time Poster Here:

Greg:

1)  What do you mean by "darker?"

2)  Why do you believe the world will become darker? 

3)  Couldn't you excise the word "God" from your last statement without having any of its impact and wisdom compromised?  God seems unnecessary. 

[Greg]

Hello First Time Poster Here:

Greg:

1)  What do you mean by "darker?"

2)  Why do you believe the world will become darker? 

3)  Couldn't you excise the word "God" from your last statement without having any of its impact and wisdom compromised?  God seems unnecessary.

Welcome to the forum NWODurruti. You'll find your time gets sucked into this pit of abyss we call the forum quite quickly.

1 and 2.) Mainly in Revelation, where the world will get worse before it can get better. I'd both optimistic about what humans can do to create positive change in the world while pessimistic about what overall things will happen. I'm assuming they'll be power struggles at some point and people will rally and cause wars, I just have no idea when this will happen (obviously). On a sidenote, I've always hated the term it is always the darkest before the dawn. Wouldn't it be the darkest half-way between the time when the sunset and when the sun rises? Unless it has something to do with the moon as well.

3.) You could remove God from my statement and it still would be correct as you say. However, as we prepare for retirement by being responsible with our assets, etc. we should prepare for eternity by being responsible with our souls.

[Greg]

I think I underststand where you are coming from ... I was once there.  If you do not think Christianity gives you the best view of the current situation and what the future holds for you, personally, make a better case.  I'll read it.  It would be interesting to better understand others views. 

I think about the last week or so of news.  Killings at a church in SC.  Racial violence.  ISIS.  All the gay stuff.  War.  Hatred.  Government corruption.  Back stabbing politics.  Back stabbing by neighbors.  Even back stabbings by church members who are self-professed do gooders.  To me, not at all unexpected or surprising, it is predictable and predicted by Scripture.  Christianity seems to have the best explanation of why those events happen and continue to happen, and much more importantly, the solution.

... Mountaineer

to me its not Christianity, the teaching of Christ or the bible, that has shortcomings but the anthropomorphic understanding of god (putting a face on the cloud) that is messing Christianity up.  it seems like a "little league" way to understand the world around us. not inherently bad (i am in favor of it in some respects) but sort of silly and childlike in its views compared to seeing the world in the same way as/with the same eyes as Jesus, Buddha and others have (as they tried to teach us to do).  There is more than one type of person in the world some are seekers, some are followers, some are leaders and some are corrupters who want power, this forum due to the personality type of DYS investors, libertarian leaning, philosophically inclined, debaters are largely the seeker type, rational, logical, looking for hands on experience, a childlike faith based understanding is in some ways beneath their skill set, the truth is that much of the world are followers, not the type who need to dive deep, they are those who who are willing to "just believe" what they have been told, and do so without questioning it, and if such understanding keeps them from trouble than i am all for it. The rarest (one in many billion rare) type of all are the seekers who are also leaders, these are the Buddhas and Jesus of the world those who start religions, but some leaders are/have corrupted religion in the name of getting power, they warp it into the silly and childlike version that many follow and do so for there own gain .. many non-seeker type leaders do take followers by the hand and lead in good faith but they can only teach the childlike version they themselves have been taught, and that will be enough for a follower but never enough for a seeker..

I appreciate your post interactive processing. It's quite insightful. However, if you wanted to reach the largest audience, both the seekers and the followers, wouldn't you want to have a multifaceted view of the religion? Simplicity for simpletons and complexity for the seekers to endlessly debate and stretch their minds? I myself enjoy both. I love reading up on the complexities of religion, but I also love seeing a beautiful forest and marveling at how wonderful it is and how wonderful a creator was to make this.

in a strange convoluted way it is the almost the opposite.. simplicity for the seekers and complexity for the follower (undoubtedly a result of the coruptors efforts to gain/maintain power over followers) just look at how many pages of posts it takes to explain or attempt to prove a faith based understanding... and still after all this it really comes down to i believe because i believe. i too am in favor of allowing room for both, if religion keeps one from trouble and provides some fulfillment then have at it.. just take care in declaring your version of it as ultimate truth, proven and indisputable..

[Mountaineer]

I'm still waiting for a "better case" than Christianity to be presented that will explain past and current events, why man is the way he is, the source of all, and give a hopeful view of where the "better case" adherents go after death.  All I'm seeing is a lot of throwing a hand grenade on the table without the means to diffuse it being offered.  Have I missed something?  Perhaps it is an impossible task to come up with that better case - people have been trying for 2000 years to pick Christianity apart and yet it has indisputably survived through several hundred years of Roman paganism, the fall of the Roman empire, barbarianism, the onslaught of other religions, war, famine, plague, deliberate attempts to stamp it out by very powerful governments, and the crown jewel of man - the enlightenment and secular self-worship.  I predict Christianity will be around long after we are gone and our assets that we so carefully stored up have been squandered by our inheritors.  The dustbin of history will be full of those false religions that had their moment in the sun and then disappeared while Christianity lives on, the believers ever filled with hope and knowledge of God's ever enduring glory.

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

I'm still waiting for a "better case" than Christianity to be presented that will explain past and current events, why man is the way he is, the source of all, and give a hopeful view of where the "better case" adherents go after death.  All I'm seeing is a lot of throwing a hand grenade on the table without the means to diffuse it being offered.  Have I missed something?  Perhaps it is an impossible task to come up with that better case - people have been trying for 2000 years to pick Christianity apart and yet it has indisputably survived through several hundred years of Roman paganism, the fall of the Roman empire, barbarianism, the onslaught of other religions, war, famine, plague, deliberate attempts to stamp it out by very powerful governments, and the crown jewel of man - the enlightenment and secular self-worship.  I predict Christianity will be around long after we are gone and our assets that we so carefully stored up have been squandered by our inheritors.  The dustbin of history will be full of those false religions that had their moment in the sun and then disappeared while Christianity lives on, the believers ever filled with hope and knowledge of God's ever enduring glory.

... Mountaineer

+ a very large integer

agreed. I like Christianity and the story it involves. If a better story exists, I'd like to hear more.

[Pointedstick]

I'm still waiting for a "better case" than Christianity to be presented that will explain past and current events, why man is the way he is, the source of all, and give a hopeful view of where the "better case" adherents go after death.

By presupposing that these questions even have answers, you are setting yourself up to discount all points of view and even religions that do not purport to answer them. If these questions are unanswerable, then people who claim to have answered them are fooling themselves.

[Pointedstick]

I'm still waiting for a "better case" than Christianity to be presented that will explain past and current events, why man is the way he is, the source of all, and give a hopeful view of where the "better case" adherents go after death.

By presupposing that these questions even have answers, you are setting yourself up to discount all points of view and even religions that do not purport to answer them. If these questions are unanswerable, then people who claim to have answered them are fooling themselves.

I guess presupposition cuts both ways.  What if some strange ancient belief system already answered these questions?

Well, I don't think I'm presupposing anything. It could very well be that those questions have been answered. But for me, Christianity doesn't seem to do it. The more I learn, the less I see these questions being answered in a way that makes sense to me and the more I see them being ham-handedly answered in a way that made sense to an ancient people with a different belief system. I think there's wisdom in the Bible, for sure. "Creation is cursed" could be a metaphor for entropy, for example. Seen through the lens of an ancient people who know nothing of the weather, the flood could be a fascinating story about a massive weather event that wiped out entire cities. But if we take the story literally, very little attracts me to a being that murders nearly all of humanity and says it's done out of of love. Sorry, that just doesn't fill me with reverence and awe--more like disgust.

That's the bind I'm in with Christianity. I can't interpret it metaphorically without twisting it into what appeals most to me, but I can't take it literally either because most of its source material is alternately ridiculous and monstrous.

[Greg]

By presupposing that these questions even have answers, you are setting yourself up to discount all points of view and even religions that do not purport to answer them. If these questions are unanswerable, then people who claim to have answered them are fooling themselves.

I guess presupposition cuts both ways.  What if some strange ancient belief system already answered these questions?

Well, I don't think I'm presupposing anything. It could very well be that those questions have been answered. But for me, Christianity doesn't seem to do it. The more I learn, the less I see these questions being answered in a way that makes sense to me and the more I see them being ham-handedly answered in a way that made sense to an ancient people with a different belief system. I think there's wisdom in the Bible, for sure. "Creation is cursed" could be a metaphor for entropy, for example. Seen through the lens of an ancient people who know nothing of the weather, the flood could be a fascinating story about a massive weather event that wiped out entire cities. But if we take the story literally, very little attracts me to a being that murders nearly all of humanity and says it's done out of of love. Sorry, that's just doesn't fill me with reverence and awe--more like disgust.

That's the bind I'm in with Christianity. I can't interpret it metaphorically without twisting it into what appeals most to me, but I can't take it literally either because most of its source material is alternately ridiculous and monstrous.

I still think you're looking at love incorrectly for God, and that God has plans that we can't comprehend. It'd be like explaining living in the 3rd dimension to Pac-Man (2D-Pac-Man that is). It'd just be too much to process. Did God need to sacrifice his son to save his creation?

In my eyes, I wouldn't think he would have to and could have made an easier way, but that'd be to question God's plans, and he's infinity more intelligent than me.