Figuring Out Religion

[screwtape]

Judaism has been succeeded by Christianity and was foretold in the Jewish Bible.

I understand very well why you believe that but I find myself agreeing with the Jews who don't believe it. Most of the prophecies cited by Christians involve taking scriptures completely out of context and if you trace every one of them from the New Testament into the Old Testament I tend to think the connection in about 90% of the cases is highly dubious at best (and some of the New Testament ones aren't even there in the Old Testament, BTW).

For those few that remain, like Isaiah 53, you have to ask yourself, did the Old Testament prophets predict the coming of Christ or was the story of the coming of Christ altered to fulfill the prophecies. 

[MediumTex]

+1, definitely.

Oh yeah, big thanks to Mountaineer.  It's is a great discussion for sure.

I'm thinking my snark-o-meter should have gone off but the battery seems dead.  Thank goodness my Spyderco Delica 4 is still functional, thanks to advice from MT. 

... Mountaineer

I wasn't being snarky at all.  I am really enjoying this conversation.

I rarely get to talk about religion without everything quickly falling apart.

[screwtape]

I wasn't being snarky at all.  I am really enjoying this conversation.

I rarely get to talk about religion without everything quickly falling apart.

Ditto.

Religion was an important part of my life for many years so talking about is a kind of like therapy. Please keep it up and give it your best shot. I'm finding it very beneficial. If I sound like a snarky asshole it's probably because I really am one. My beloved wife might very well attest to that fact even though I know she still loves me.

[MachineGhost]

I think I'm going to return to the Bible after all and just follow the advice to "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, for tomorrow we die".

That sounds more like Shakespeare!

[screwtape]

I think I'm going to return to the Bible after all and just follow the advice to "Eat, Drink, and be Merry, for tomorrow we die".

That sounds more like Shakespeare!

"There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God." Ecclesiastes 2:24

[MachineGhost]

Was reading a book not long ago by a Hebrew scholar who is like me, having once been a true believer, and he said he still thought it was the greatest piece of literature ever written, far surpassing the works of William Shakespeare.

Given the influence it has had in at least the Western world I find it hard to disagree with that.

I wouldn't conflate "greatest" with "most influential".  Shakespeare is in a league of his own, far surpassing the turgid Bible.

And rounding up #2 is Atlas Shrugged.  Go figure!

[MachineGhost]

Christianity by nature, and I expect by intent, is very offensive.  Who wants to believe in a God that would take on human form instead of remaining high and mighty?  Who wants to hear that they may be damned for all eternity?  Who wants to believe "they" are not in charge?  Who wants to hear their God was crucified and died?  Who wants to hear "they" are sinners and not the other guy?  Who wants to realize the symbolism of a cross?  Who wants to believe that some criminal might be saved?  Who wants to give up the role of judge and jury?  Who wants to give up feeling superior to others?  Who wants to have an unseen God?  Who wants to have an unprovable God when they can depend on self?  Who wants to believe self is flawed beyond saving by self?  Yes indeed, very, very offensive.  Not the Joel Osteen sweet syrup religion or the religion of self at all.

Are you trying reverse psychology now?  Good luck with that one!

[screwtape]

I wouldn't conflate "greatest" with "most influential".  Shakespeare is in a league of his own, far surpassing the turgid Bible.

Out, out brief candle. Life is but a walking shadow. A poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. A tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


(quoted from memory, deeply instilled within from High School English class long before taking the words of the Bible to heart).

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.

Equally exalted language, Bob Dylan notwithstanding in my book.

But doesn't get any better than this. Standing on the gallows with my head in the noose - any minute now I'm expecting all hell to break loose. I used to care but things have changed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EKqQWPjyo

[MachineGhost]

Judaism has been succeeded by Christianity and was foretold in the Jewish Bible. Hinduism and Buddhism I had a college course on them but they just didn't resonate with me. It seemed like eternity was on earth versus eternity in heaven.

See, you are using your pre-existing bias to find a religion that then confirms it, rather than being completely objective.  I don't know if humans CAN be completely objective, though.  I tend to believe there is a religion, non-religion or a working set of beliefs for everyone.

Also, I sometimes wonder for after Christianity, there were still many religions that sprouted some, some big, some small. Makes me think about the person that came up with it. They decided they 1.) didn't like the current available options, 2.) had a dream, etc. that made them want to make another option. 3.) Convinced other people that they were correct.

Jesus was no different.  Surely you don't have blinders on so much that you're ALWAYS presuming that Christianity is at the top of the totem pole and all other are challengers?  How dare they!

Silly me, "cult" is politically incorrect nowadays.  The proper term is "new religious movement" and here's a list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... ments#List

[Greg]

To MG, yes I am biased. I believe Jesus is the way to heaven and everything else is wrong. I shape everything else based on this and search for ways to strengthen this belief. PS is right, if during my searches I find that there is something better than Christianity out there, I am setting myself up for some serious cognitive dissonance, and that scares me.

I am trusting that my Creator will point me in the correct directions so that I may be filled with wisdom at the end of my journey and feel it to be a life that was worth living.

Interesting website with a lot of useful information on it. This link below has a lot on some of the issues brought up about validation of the Bible and how to test it.

http://www.gospelway.com/bible/bible-validation.php

Also some stuff on emotions http://www.gospelway.com/bible/emotions.php

[MediumTex]

If his voice isn't enough, I'm pretty sure the smile and hair will get him in. 



But seriously, his message isn't Christianity.  His message is destructive.

He speaks in a church and encourages people, but his message doesn't exactly hew to the Bible?  Off with his head!!!



So are we saying that Joel Osteen is going to Hell?  If his message isn't Christianity and it is destructive, it sounds like he has done everything you need to do to go to Hell, so I guess that's where he will spend eternity.

I wonder if that wife of his is going to Hell too?  All I really know about her is that she seems kind of arrogant and she likes to beat on flight attendants.  Maybe she will go to Hell because she had the ability to stop Joel Osteen and she did nothing.



If I were making the rules, a desire to beat on flight attendants would actually help you get into Heaven under a "righteous fury" theory.

[Pointedstick]

I have tried reading the Bible, but like I said before, I found it to be pretty brutal and offensive. I did not manage to see the love that many say is there. All I saw was violence and wrath.

I don't think John 3:16 can be quoted too many times:

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Really? God loves the world? He certainly doesn't seem to love a lot of the people who lived in it at the time it was being written.


I don't think God loved the innocent bystanders and relatives of the people who made the golden calf:

And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

It doesn't seem like God loved the people of Bashan, either:

So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

God doesn't seem to have loved anyone who lived in Sodom and Gomorrah:

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

For that matter, he didn't seem to love Lot's wife either:

But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

I think if I turned my wife into a pillar of salt, people wouldn't automatically assume I loved her very deeply.


Then of course there's the Egyptian firstborn children and the flood story in which God murders everyone in the world except Noah and his family. I could go on… the old testament is practically nothing but God telling people to go exterminate other people, or exterminating them himself. That's a funny way to express love. I must be misunderstanding what loving the world means in a Biblical context. Clearly it doesn't mean "refraining from murdering the people in it." I imagine the response will be, "Those people sinned and were wicked!" Clearly. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about love. In my book, when someone does stuff you don't like, you talk it out, you don't murder them.

[Pointedstick]

God doesn't stop doing it in the New Testament, either:

And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.

And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Being smitten by an angel and eaten by worms is not exactly what comes to mind when I envision how God might love me.

[Greg]

I'm reading up on Islam lately. Any thoughts from people as to why it is right or wrong? It seems to be very dry reading but just trying to learn more.

[MediumTex]

The old testament is practically nothing but God telling people to go exterminate other people, or exterminating them himself. That's a funny way to express love. I must be misunderstanding what loving the world means in a Biblical context. Clearly it doesn't mean "refraining from murdering the people in it." I imagine the response will be, "Those people sinned and were wicked!" Clearly. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about love. In my book, when someone does stuff you don't like, you talk it out, you don't murder them.

To contrast all of those innocent women, children and elderly who were slaughtered to make various points in the Old Testament, God saw fit to enable, embolden, and empower one of the great lowlife losers in all of religious history--King David!  I would love to read his Facebook profile:

I was chosen by God to be the King of a small tribe in the Middle East.  My principal claim to fame is that I cracked a giant's skull with a rock, but there is SO much more to me.  I also like to bang my best friend's wife when her husband is away, and I actually liked banging her so much that I sent her husband off to certain death so that I could bang her without being interrupted (we call that a "Ten Commandments Hat Trick": Lying + Adultery + Murder, all in one sinning spree).  God let me know he didn't like what I was doing by murdering my firstborn because he wanted me to know that it was wrong to kill an innocent person because of my petty emotions.  I was still basically a thug after that, but I tried to be more discreet.  When Jesus came along, it was actually someone like me that they were looking for, and it took them a while to adjust to what Jesus was saying because it was nothing like the lying, whoring, and killing that they had come to expect from me.

[Pointedstick]

Yeah, it's an ongoing story of sin, mercy, more sin, justice, more sin, etc. 

The Sodom story is a pretty interesting one.  The dudes there were just real bastards.  And so was Lot, offering up his daughters.  Lots of bad people, some attempts by Abraham to negotiate a pardon, followed by the eventual justice.  You're right, PS, it is harsh. 

One thing I think I'm finally starting to learn from the painful stories of the OT is the horrid seriousness of sin.  That's not a message that is acceptable in our culture.  Our culture is a product of the 1960's in so many ways.  We have adopted a morality that isn't compatible with punishment we see in the OT.  And I'm a product of that same culture; so when I look at portions of the Bible, I must admit one of my frequent thoughts is something like "well, that's not the way I'd have drawn it up."  I think I understand your objections.  But you and I don't have the basis in justice that God has; we don't take it as seriously.  And we also don't love like God does.  It's a dichotomy that is very difficult to accept, for products of our present culture.

My objection isn't the actual stuff that God did. Lots of religions have brutal gods that kill people who displease them. It's common. My problem is with the frequent assertion that God loves us. I have never received an explanation that makes sense to me for how a God that loves his creations can, well, kill his creations, and very frequently and brutally.

How is this love?

[MediumTex]

I'm reading up on Islam lately. Any thoughts from people as to why it is right or wrong? It seems to be very dry reading but just trying to learn more.

Just make sure you don't decide it would be cool to draw a picture of the Prophet.

[MediumTex]

Yeah, it's an ongoing story of sin, mercy, more sin, justice, more sin, etc. 

The Sodom story is a pretty interesting one.  The dudes there were just real bastards.  And so was Lot, offering up his daughters.  Lots of bad people, some attempts by Abraham to negotiate a pardon, followed by the eventual justice.  You're right, PS, it is harsh. 

One thing I think I'm finally starting to learn from the painful stories of the OT is the horrid seriousness of sin.  That's not a message that is acceptable in our culture.  Our culture is a product of the 1960's in so many ways.  We have adopted a morality that isn't compatible with punishment we see in the OT.  And I'm a product of that same culture; so when I look at portions of the Bible, I must admit one of my frequent thoughts is something like "well, that's not the way I'd have drawn it up."  I think I understand your objections.  But you and I don't have the basis in justice that God has; we don't take it as seriously.  And we also don't love like God does.  It's a dichotomy that is very difficult to accept, for products of our present culture.

My objection isn't the actual stuff that God did. Lots of religions have brutal gods that kill people who displease them. It's common. My problem is with the frequent assertion that God loves us. I have never received an explanation that makes sense to me for how a God that loves his creations can, well, kill his creations, and very frequently and brutally.

How is this love?

It's the love that an alcoholic redneck father shows his kids when he beats them and tells them they are worthless.

After a particularly vicious beating, the redneck father will often cuddle his kids and tell them that he loves them and reassure them that he only beats them so hard because he loves them so much.

[MediumTex]

The old testament is practically nothing but God telling people to go exterminate other people, or exterminating them himself. That's a funny way to express love. I must be misunderstanding what loving the world means in a Biblical context. Clearly it doesn't mean "refraining from murdering the people in it." I imagine the response will be, "Those people sinned and were wicked!" Clearly. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about love. In my book, when someone does stuff you don't like, you talk it out, you don't murder them.

To contrast all of those innocent women, children and elderly who were slaughtered to make various points in the Old Testament, God saw fit to enable, embolden, and empower one of the great lowlife losers in all of religious history--King David!  I would love to read his Facebook profile:

I was chosen by God to be the King of a small tribe in the Middle East.  My principal claim to fame is that I cracked a giant's skull with a rock, but there is SO much more to me.  I also like to bang my best friend's wife when her husband is away, and I actually liked banging her so much that I sent her husband off to certain death so that I could bang her without being interrupted (we call that a "Ten Commandments Hat Trick": Lying + Adultery + Murder, all in one sinning spree).  God let me know he didn't like what I was doing by murdering my firstborn because he wanted me to know that it was wrong to kill an innocent person because of my petty emotions.  I was still basically a thug after that, but I tried to be more discreet.  When Jesus came along, it was actually someone like me that they were looking for, and it took them a while to adjust to what Jesus was saying because it was nothing like the lying, whoring, and killing that they had come to expect from me.

Yes!  David isn't a hero.  He's a lowlife, in so many ways.  Why wouldn't the authors of the Bible edit that a bit, and make the heroes be more perfect?  The Bible is the story both of God's law and justice, but also his forgiveness and his reaching down to save lowlife's like David.  And that is a huge part of the Christian story ... not great people climbing up to God, but God descending to save lowlifes like me.

I was assuming that the Bible had already been edited to make David look better by leaving out a lot of the REALLY bad stuff.

I'm struggling to understand a God that would save the lowlifes like King David (even though he wasn't actually saved because there wasn't a Heaven in the Old Testament) and hatemongers like Jerry Falwell, and then turn around and send Anne Frank to Hell for eternity.

That just doesn't make any sense to me.  I almost feel like the Bible is a test being given by the Real God to see if I am courageous enough to stand up and speak the truth about what a split personality psychotic sadist the God in the Bible really is.  Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that "You will know him by his works"?

Has anyone ever wondered if the Bible is actually a test to draw us AWAY from truth and cause divisions among us?  Think about it: the world always embraces evil and the Bible is the most influential book of all time.  What does that suggest about it?

If a Christian saw a group of missionaries giving a homosexual a good Rodney King-style beatdown, what should the Christian do?  Should he watch quietly?  Should he cheer?  Should he call his pastor to send a group over to relieve the missionaries when they got tired?  Aren't all three approaches supported by the Bible?

[MediumTex]

My objection isn't the actual stuff that God did. Lots of religions have brutal gods that kill people who displease them. It's common. My problem is with the frequent assertion that God loves us. I have never received an explanation that makes sense to me for how a God that loves his creations can, well, kill his creations, and very frequently and brutally.

How is this love?

It's the love that an alcoholic redneck father shows his kids when he beats them and tells them they are worthless.

After a particularly vicious beating, the redneck father will often cuddle his kids and tell them that he loves them and reassure them that he only beats them so hard because he loves them so much.

"Why do you make me hurt you?"  That's what they say in the Lifetime movies.  Not that I watch lifetime movies, because I'm not a sissy. 

But seriously, MT, I don't think that's a good analogy.  If the kids, like, raped and murdered a bunch of people, and then the redneck father beat them, I'd be all on board with that analogy.

But I thought that to God ALL sin was equally reprehensible.  Doesn't it say that over and over in the Bible? 

If any of those kids ever fibbed, stole, or coveted anything, wouldn't that make them deserving of death in the eyes of God?  The drunk father might actually be going easy on them by merely beating them and telling them they are worthless.

[Greg]

And the two assholes who escaped prison and abducted my family when I was a kid.

Wait a hot second, has this been discussed before? Your family was abducted???

[Pointedstick]

Yes!  You're right.  But that justice is to be meted out by God, not the drunk Dad.  And fortunately, there is forgiveness for those who repent. 

Basically, Christianity is the anti-religion.  Merit for those who deserve none.  No merit for those who the world sees as pillars of the community.  It's a scary thought, for pillars of the community.

Again with the great job selling me on Christianity!

[MediumTex]

But I thought that to God ALL sin was equally reprehensible.  Doesn't it say that over and over in the Bible? 

If any of those kids ever fibbed, stole, or coveted anything, wouldn't that make them deserving of death in the eyes of God?  The drunk father might actually be going easy on them by merely beating them and telling them they are worthless.

Yes!  You're right.  But that justice is to be meted out by God, not the drunk Dad.  And fortunately, there is forgiveness for those who repent. 

Basically, Christianity is the anti-religion.  Merit for those who deserve none.  No merit for those who the world sees as pillars of the community.  It's a scary thought, for pillars of the community.

What I was suggesting is that maybe God is like a cosmic drunk dad.  That's not a judgment, it's just an observation based on how he treats his kids.

I don't know if I could even conceive of being angry enough at my kids to send them to Hell forever, and yet God does it every day.

If God is perfect, why do you think he gets so mad at us so often?

If God is perfect, where did he get the idea to create sin in the first place?  If I were a supernatural being who prized good writing as the highest virtue and I created a race of inferior beings to monitor, would it make any sense for me to give them all the innate temptation to write poorly, and then just take those who never turned away from their propensity to write poorly and send them to Hell forever?

If Michael Jordan were God, would you expect him to create a race of short white people with no game, and then send everyone who couldn't dunk to Hell forever?  That wouldn't make any sense.  It would be a sadistic exercise from start to finish, no matter how much he said he loved his little white no-game creation.

[MediumTex]

Ok, in my desire to offend everyone equally, I'm going to say it:  I don't like Falwell.  I think he was a perfect pharisee.  In fact, if I had to design a pharisee from scratch, on a blank sheet of paper, why, he'd look just like Jerry.  Smug, self-satisfied, proud.  Follower of the law.  Moral Majority founder.  I wonder if Jerry ever saw that in himself; you know, if he ever accidentally looked in a mirror, and thought "crap, I'm a freakin' pharisee." 

When Jerry Falwell died, Christopher Hitchens said of his passing: "He was so full of shit that if they had given him an enema he could have been buried in a matchbox."

[Greg]

But I thought that to God ALL sin was equally reprehensible.  Doesn't it say that over and over in the Bible? 

If any of those kids ever fibbed, stole, or coveted anything, wouldn't that make them deserving of death in the eyes of God?  The drunk father might actually be going easy on them by merely beating them and telling them they are worthless.

Yes!  You're right.  But that justice is to be meted out by God, not the drunk Dad.  And fortunately, there is forgiveness for those who repent. 

Basically, Christianity is the anti-religion.  Merit for those who deserve none.  No merit for those who the world sees as pillars of the community.  It's a scary thought, for pillars of the community.

What I was suggesting is that maybe God is like a cosmic drunk dad.  That's not a judgment, it's just an observation based on how he treats his kids.

I don't know if I could even conceive of being angry enough at my kids to send them to Hell forever, and yet God does it everyday.

If God is perfect, why do you think he gets so mad at us so often?

If God is perfect, where did he get the idea to create sin in the first place?  If I were a supernatural being who prized good writing as the highest virtue and I created a race of inferior beings to monitor, would it make any sense for me to give them all the innate temptation to write poorly, and then just take those who never turned away from their propensity to write poorly and send them to Hell forever?

If Michael Jordan were God, would you expect him to create a race of short white people with no game, and then send everyone who couldn't dunk to Hell forever?  That wouldn't make any sense.  It would be a sadistic exercise from start to finish, no matter how much he said he loved his little white no-game creation.

I really liked this quote that I found on a Yahoo Answers Board:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 632AAepqDg

"Talk about putting the cart before the horse! (And here I thought it was the Christian who can't think logically, according to all the mockers!)

Evil is the effect of someone rejecting the good.

Just as cold isn't the opposite of heat, but it's absence; and darkness isn't the opposite of light, but it's absence; so likewise evil isn't the opposite of good, but it's absence; and when one moves away from the source of heat the temperature drops, and when one moves away from the source of light, the luminosity drops, so likewise when one moves morally farther and farther away from God, evil abounds!

It is free will that allows a person to push God away, but the results is that the person becomes evil.

Free will CAN exist without evil, but evil can not exist without free will!

Evil isn't "allowed to exist" any more than darkness or coldness is "allowed to exist!" On a snowy winter night, start a bonfire outside to stay warm, and then slowly begin to move away from the fire. The temperature around your body begins to decrease. Are you "allowing" the cold to exist? Or are you just moving away from the source of heat?

Evil exists because of evil people like you who reject God's mercies, love, forgiveness and goodness!

(And, before you ask, yes! You are evil, because you reject God, the ultimate source of all good!)"