Figuring Out Religion

[MachineGhost]

I think the most correct view is, even though we now see through a mirror dimly:  God the Father is a wrathful God, he will give us exactly what we deserve according to his, not our, rules.  God the Father also loves his creation and wants us to spend eternal life with him.  God the Father loved us so much, he sent his Son to atone for the sins we deserve punishment for, while he, the Son, deserved zero punishment.  Jesus took ALL our sin, for ALL time and for ALL people, upon himself, with the physical pain and suffering and the horrible anguish of knowing he was for a time totally forsaken by God the Father because of that sin he accepted in our place according to God's will.  In turn, we get Jesus' righteousness and are declared "not guilty" by God according to his rules.  Jesus then sent the Holy Spirit to us to make himself, his teachings, his love, his righteousness and ours known - all now and not yet - as we will not achieve full righteousness until after the Last Day.  There are shadows and foreshadows all over the First Testament that tell this story.  We are saved because of what Christ did on the cross for us - the only catch is that you have to believe the story and trust that God is faithful to his promises.  Does not seem quite fair or quite reasonable by human standards does it?

It's a nice and seductive fairy tale to believe in to wash your hands of all responsibility for the world's humanistic problems.  Why ever do any good in life unless you first want to appear favorable in "God"s eyes and avoid Hell?  That is a Pavlovian dog.  Please kowtow now.

So, I'm really convinced Christianity and most other religions appeal to masochists or those with (sub)conscious masochist desires.  I, however, prefer to be in control and a sadist.

So there's a huge and irreconcilable difference in philosophy here.

[Greg]

To piggyback on what Mountaineer said, all we can do is sow seeds. While I may believe that others go to hell (the end result of not wanting to have a relationship with God/Jesus), I realize I can't prove that. Because of this, I can only just tell you what I believe and then you have to make the final call on what you want to do.

Even if I could prove it however, I'd still just show you all of the facts that I have, and let you still make the decision based on what you know. That's where our freewill still comes in.

For me, it's not my job on earth to forceably convert people. I want to learn more about Christianity so that I can talk to others in case they are ever interested in having further conversations about it or questions about it. Other than that, it is still ultimately the choice of the person as to whether they want to talk or not.

I can't fault someone if they make a sincere attempt and make a decision that I might not make myself.

My not being a Christian has nothing to do with the status of my desire to have a relationship with God or Jesus; such a thing is predicated on my believing that God exists and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior rather than just a rabble-rouser who was murdered by the government. How can I decide not to have a relationship with an entity that I don't even know exists or not? Am I deciding not to have a relationship with the aliens of Alpha Centauri? It's very difficult for me to envision a person who believes in God and Jesus but "doesn't want to have a relationship with them." If I knew or had faith that God existed and that Jesus was his son and mortal incarnation and all of humanity's lord and savior, you bet I'd want to have a relationship with them.

There's a good chance you're doing this already, but have you thought of talking to yourself, saying that you want God/the Creator/entity that was there that set off the start of big bang, etc. to start revealing himself more to you and asking for more wisdom on the subject?

I still do this a lot to try to gain more wisdom because I think I'm right on the other side of the fence of you. I question my own beliefs at times and want to gain more understanding so that I can feel confident in my approach. You're doing the same thing, you've just not jumped over the fence to Godland (a pretty sweet sounding amusement park), and I do hope you do because I'd like to have Eternity Portfolio talks with you up in heaven. Think of the compounding up there!

[Mountaineer]

And for the record I don't mind you "planting seeds" to remind us we are going to hell, but you have to be willing to accept my snarky comments if you do.

Thanks for trying to upgrade my pay scale, but I only cast seeds .... I'm not qualified to plant them.  I'm afraid some of those seeds end up on rock and I don't have a rock drill in my bag so I'm learning to let go and let live and let die.  Thanks be to God it is dust to dust instead of rock to rock.  I'm trying to re-learn snark.  How did I do? 

On a more serious note, begging you to accept Jesus was a losing proposition.  That method assumes you have an active part in the play.  You don't.  Only God.  Working through his means.  As you can tell, I'm not a fan of decision theology.  It is the Pelagian heresy, condemned in 418 AD. 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

And I only post this because while there is a lot of mutual respect amongst participants here, that respect doesn't change the fact that some thread participants feel that others are going to spend eternity in hell.

It shouldn't bother anyone but the suspectible youngsters that don't have thick skin yet.  People believe all kinds of crazy B.S. all the time; you have to compartmentalize when dealing with them or you'll go crazy too!

[Greg]

So, I'm really convinced Christianity and most other religions appeal to masochists or those with (sub)conscious masochist desires.  I, however, prefer to be in control and a sadist.

So there's a huge and irreconcilable difference in philosophy here.

Everyone is hurting on Earth in some way or another, although some are hurting more than others.

God/Jesus promises an end to this suffering, but only if we want to believe in him, and walk over and play with him and his friends. If you don't want to play, that is your choice.

Also, why would I want to suffer? The only reason we can really "enjoy" it, is that it might cause us to build character, etc. I'm pretty sure most people would rather opt out of suffering however. God also isn't a sadist if you follow the rules. It is only through his grace that when we inevitably fail at following those rules, that he doesn't explode us in a Scanners-esk way based on his rules. Wages of sin is death.

[Mountaineer]

If I had an acquaintance who drank too much, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to talk to them about their behavior and encourage them to be more responsible. Though I would be meaning well, likely that would only insult them and make them want to be around me less. That kind of thing very rarely works.  Instead, I can disapprove of their drunkenness without actively trying to save them from themselves.

As we life our lives, we're constantly surrounded by people who are doing things we consider destructive or wrong or stupid or whatever. I find that I'm much less stressed out and unhappy when I try to let go of what other people are doing wrong from my perspective and just let them live their own lives. I'm actually really bad at this, and it's a struggle, I admit. But the more successful I get at it, the happier I feel and the more people seem to want to be around me. I guess nobody likes feeling judged.

You're not alone.  I think its a curse of being a highly aware and curious intellectual.  But people with addictions cannot perceive what others do about them and they need a helping hand to get them to finally take responsibility for themselves, no matter how much it insults them.  Tolerance only works up to a point (see immigration).  This applies to government welfare too, BTW.

Now that is a supplemental view I can get behind!  Well said.  Shall we help each other to see our blind spots? 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

EDIT:  Oooops, I could not get the picture to post correctly.  It is a Rodin knockoff with an ape staring at a man's skull.  My mother-in-law gave it to me years ago.  I think she was trying to tell me something in my "heathen" days.

It sounds very Planet of the Apes!  I'm a heathen fan.

[MachineGhost]

Feel free to attempt to poke holes into the faith and the snarky comments towards it. Only through stressing something can you allow it to grow.

But if you just shrug off valid factual points as believers do, all that will grow is your counterfactual delusion.  Lets face it, faith does not win against logic, reason and empiricism, so:

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[Mountaineer]

I think the most correct view is, even though we now see through a mirror dimly:  God the Father is a wrathful God, he will give us exactly what we deserve according to his, not our, rules.  God the Father also loves his creation and wants us to spend eternal life with him.  God the Father loved us so much, he sent his Son to atone for the sins we deserve punishment for, while he, the Son, deserved zero punishment.  Jesus took ALL our sin, for ALL time and for ALL people, upon himself, with the physical pain and suffering and the horrible anguish of knowing he was for a time totally forsaken by God the Father because of that sin he accepted in our place according to God's will.  In turn, we get Jesus' righteousness and are declared "not guilty" by God according to his rules.  Jesus then sent the Holy Spirit to us to make himself, his teachings, his love, his righteousness and ours known - all now and not yet - as we will not achieve full righteousness until after the Last Day.  There are shadows and foreshadows all over the First Testament that tell this story.  We are saved because of what Christ did on the cross for us - the only catch is that you have to believe the story and trust that God is faithful to his promises.  Does not seem quite fair or quite reasonable by human standards does it?

It's a nice and seductive fairy tale to believe in to wash your hands of all responsibility for the world's humanistic problems.  Why ever do any good in life unless you first want to appear favorable in "God"s eyes and avoid Hell?  That is a Pavlovian dog.  Please kowtow now.

So, I'm really convinced Christianity and most other religions appeal to masochists or those with (sub)conscious masochist desires.  I, however, prefer to be in control and a sadist.

So there's a huge and irreconcilable difference in philosophy here.

How did you come up with that?  Strange.  In my opinion, of course.  I think we do all sorts of good works in this world because of our thankfulness of what God did for us.  Hmmmmmm.  Worth more discussion?

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

There's a good chance you're doing this already, but have you thought of talking to yourself, saying that you want God/the Creator/entity that was there that set off the start of big bang, etc. to start revealing himself more to you and asking for more wisdom on the subject?

And will you be disappointed when he doesn't choose your Christian cult "God" but that of another?  How will you explain that to yourself?

[Mountaineer]

Feel free to attempt to poke holes into the faith and the snarky comments towards it. Only through stressing something can you allow it to grow.

But if you just shrug off valid factual points as believers do, all that will grow is your counterfactual delusion.  Lets face it, faith does not win against logic, reason and empiricism, so:

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Only in the very short term, Grasshopper.  Only in the short term.  The game has already been won - you are not yet aware enough to know.  Study, Grasshopper, study.  Learn, Grasshopper, learn.  Phraseology in case you are into old Bhuddism shows. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

There's a good chance you're doing this already, but have you thought of talking to yourself, saying that you want God/the Creator/entity that was there that set off the start of big bang, etc. to start revealing himself more to you and asking for more wisdom on the subject?

And will you be disappointed when he doesn't choose your Christian cult "God" but that of another?  How will you explain that to yourself?

Won't matter much in the big scheme of things what I or anyone else feels, we are not in charge.  Just the seed casters - remember? 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Now that is a supplemental view I can get behind!  Well said.  Shall we help each other to see our blind spots? 

Honestly, I think you're far too happy with your blind spot for me to try to eradicate it.  I'm not in the business of denying people their happiness unless it's for their own good benefit and that of society.  I don't see much danger with Christian cult religions compared to, say, ISIS.

[MachineGhost]

How did you come up with that?  Strange.  In my opinion, of course.  I think we do all sorts of good works in this world because of our thankfulness of what God did for us.  Hmmmmmm.  Worth more discussion?

Well, your religion's premise is entirely fear-based.  Have you compared religious and non-religious people in terms of charity?  The latter give more than the former.  That's telling, in my book.

[screwtape]

Thanks for trying to upgrade my pay scale, but I only cast seeds .... I'm not qualified to plant them.  I'm afraid some of those seeds end up on rock and I don't have a rock drill in my bag so I'm learning to let go and let live and let die.  Thanks be to God it is dust to dust instead of rock to rock.  I'm trying to re-learn snark.  How did I do? 

Must be a bit too subtle for my rocky brain because I didn't get the snark. I'll have to think about it.

On a more serious note, begging you to accept Jesus was a losing proposition.  That method assumes you have an active part in the play.  You don't.  Only God.  Working through his means.  As you can tell, I'm not a fan of decision theology.  It is the Pelagian heresy, condemned in 418 AD. 

I don't doubt the Quakers were some kind of heretics. All Christians are heretics of some kind or another. You just have to ask the right person.

The most traumatic incident in my religious upbringing which I remember very well to this day was when my grandmother took me to see a play which was a modern day version of the Book of Job. I was probably 9 or 10. I remember not being able to sleep for days. Having been saved  from hell by asking Jesus into my heart now I had to worry that I might end up being too good in the eyes of God and the devil and ending up like Job.

[MachineGhost]

Only in the very short term, Grasshopper.  Only in the short term.  The game has already been won - you are not yet aware enough to know.  Study, Grasshopper, study.  Learn, Grasshopper, learn.  Phraseology in case you are into old Bhuddism shows. 

Won't matter much in the big scheme of things what I or anyone else feels, we are not in charge.  Just the seed casters - remember? 

How can I argue with such inescapable and unassailable logic?

And what's worse, you actually believe you know WTF you're talking about.

[Pointedstick]

There's a good chance you're doing this already, but have you thought of talking to yourself, saying that you want God/the Creator/entity that was there that set off the start of big bang, etc. to start revealing himself more to you and asking for more wisdom on the subject?

Yes. Nothing ever came of it. I gave up after a year or so. I felt funny doing it when I just wasn't receiving what others seemed to receive. I felt like I was talking to a wall.

[Mountaineer]

Now that is a supplemental view I can get behind!  Well said.  Shall we help each other to see our blind spots? 

Honestly, I think you're far too happy with your blind spot for me to try to eradicate it.  I'm not in the business of denying people their happiness unless it's for their own good benefit and that of society.  I don't see much danger with Christian cult religions compared to, say, ISIS.

Fair enough, but about your blind spot?

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

How did you come up with that?  Strange.  In my opinion, of course.  I think we do all sorts of good works in this world because of our thankfulness of what God did for us.  Hmmmmmm.  Worth more discussion?

Well, your religion's premise is entirely fear-based.  Have you compared religious and non-religious people in terms of charity?  The latter give more than the former.  That's telling, in my book.

Obviously, you have not understood my posts.  My bad?  Your bad?  More discussion?  More reading?  More open mindedness? 

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Yes. Nothing ever came of it. I gave up after a year or so. I felt funny doing it when I just wasn't receiving what others seemed to receive. I felt like I was talking to a wall.

You could always try using a pendulum.  Much more effective than trying to decipher inner voices from demons.

[MachineGhost]

Fair enough, but about your blind spot?

Perfectly happy with it!  Hell, yeah!

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for trying to upgrade my pay scale, but I only cast seeds .... I'm not qualified to plant them.  I'm afraid some of those seeds end up on rock and I don't have a rock drill in my bag so I'm learning to let go and let live and let die.  Thanks be to God it is dust to dust instead of rock to rock.  I'm trying to re-learn snark.  How did I do? 

Must be a bit too subtle for my rocky brain because I didn't get the snark. I'll have to think about it.

On a more serious note, begging you to accept Jesus was a losing proposition.  That method assumes you have an active part in the play.  You don't.  Only God.  Working through his means.  As you can tell, I'm not a fan of decision theology.  It is the Pelagian heresy, condemned in 418 AD. 

I don't doubt the Quakers were some kind of heretics. All Christians are heretics of some kind or another. You just have to ask the right person.

The most traumatic incident in my religious upbringing which I remember very well to this day was when my grandmother took me to see a play which was a modern day version of the Book of Job. I was probably 9 or 10. I remember not being able to sleep for days. Having been saved  from hell by asking Jesus into my heart now I had to worry that I might end up being too good in the eyes of God and the devil and ending up like Job.

Job is a really hard book for kids and most adults.  What a thing for you to go through.  My condolences.  Good people do things they think is for good reasons and they turn out with severe unintended consequences.  Have you forgiven your grandmother?  AFWIW, you will never be too good for God from my perspective - think about the dirty rags statement of Paul.

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Obviously, you have not understood my posts.  My bad?  Your bad?  More discussion?  More reading?  More open mindedness? 

No, I think we've all understood your posts in that we're flawed, sinners, evil, need to be masochists, have no personal power, are at whims of what some angry, mean, vengeful "Man in the Sky" decides to torment us with or not (earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, dead babies, terrorism, disasters, etc.) until we kowtow, repent, do whatever is any and all necessary to buy his love and then we're destined for an everlasting afterlife by his side (and implying that is the bee's knees of an orgasm).  Oh, and incidentally you have "free will" too while you're at it, sucker!  Sorry, but its all just too puerile for my level of thinking skills.

[Mountaineer]

Only in the very short term, Grasshopper.  Only in the short term.  The game has already been won - you are not yet aware enough to know.  Study, Grasshopper, study.  Learn, Grasshopper, learn.  Phraseology in case you are into old Bhuddism shows. 

Won't matter much in the big scheme of things what I or anyone else feels, we are not in charge.  Just the seed casters - remember? 

How can I argue with such inescapable and unassailable logic?

And what's worse, you actually believe you know WTF you're talking about.

Whatever you say, Grasshopper.  Time to get back to that blind spot you say you are happy with - but then, of course it would not be a blind spot if you can see it - would it?

... Mountaineer

[screwtape]

Have you forgiven your grandmother?

She died many years ago just before her 100th birthday and there was nothing to forgive.