Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

Pascal's Wager is just a religious parlor trick.

[Greg]

Hello!  My name is Lucy.  I am an Australopithecus afarensis and I have hips that are made to be bipedal and toes that were made for dancing!  I couldn't climb a tree if I tried.

Oh man, MT...  that's almost too much!

Just on principle alone, I'm unilaterally activating the militant animal rights mode and denouncing all Christians as evil, tiger-penis-eating sh!theads.

Is there no love for my King David rap?

I was sure that would be a hit.

It was a good rap, although I started reading it thinking that you had copied-and-pasted it. Since you made it on your own, kudos to the nice rappage.

[MediumTex]

Also, when Cain left the Garden, who did he marry?

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Do you literally believe the above tripe?  Especially since actual real world evidence proves it to be false.  Don't shut down critical thinking just because you go into the realm of religion.

Why don't all you Christian believers get your genome sequenced and see how much Neanderthal DNA you have in you? 

My theory that Cain was Adam and Eve's adopted Neanderthal child would explain why we have Neanderthal DNA.

[MediumTex]

Oh man, MT...  that's almost too much!

Just on principle alone, I'm unilaterally activating the militant animal rights mode and denouncing all Christians as evil, tiger-penis-eating sh!theads.

Is there no love for my King David rap?

I was sure that would be a hit.

It was a good rap, although I started reading it thinking that you had copied-and-pasted it. Since you made it on your own, kudos to the nice rappage.

I wrote that bitch from scratch.

[Greg]

Speaking for myself: either direct, observable, testable evidence, or an overwhelming emotional attraction to the faith.

Christianity (and, to be fair, all other religions I've sampled) haven't been able to give me either.

What if your wife had those experiences but you didn't?  Would you just trust her and follow her new beliefs?

That's a tough one. In the interests of family harmony, I'd probably make a real effort to go with her, especially if the new faith seemed mild enough or offered practical benefits (e.g. a fun church community, bake sales, etc). If what she believed seemed crazy or destructive to me, and especially if she started turning into a zealot for it (this is a hypothetical because given my wife's personality, I honestly can't see her being zealot about anything), we might have to agree not to talk about it together or even part ways.

I think it's also worthwhile to separate the personality of Jesus versus the personality of God. God was quite vengeful in the old testament. Then God wanted to show more of his human side and brought down this perfect person to teach of the new relationship to God through him. There were reasons for all of the vengeful things that God did, even if we don't understand why ourselves. In my mind, we should be looking more towards the New Testament and emulating our lives after Christ, building our relationship to God through him, and learning how the Old Testament fits into the overall bigger picture of the New Testament.

[MachineGhost]

We focus on Jesus because he is the truth, the light and the way.  God created those 44 other religions just to test our faith in Jesus.

Isn't that obvious?

Ooookay, I'm leaving the insane asylum again.  Be well!

[MachineGhost]

If I prayed to God for guidance and he appeared to me in the form of a burning copy of the PP book and told me that the Bible was mostly incorrect because it had been improperly transcribed, what would be the best thing for me to do with that information?

P.S. That's easy.  Do what others have done before you.  Start a new religion and profit!

[Greg]

One of his sisters. It was okay back then because:

1.) There wasn't someone saying you shouldn't do it
2.) There wasn't enough genetic abnormalities to make it a risk yet. Humans had perfect DNA but when they sinned, it slowly started getting errors in it. Also one of the reasons why humans were able to live so long in the beginning. They just had really good genes.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Do you literally believe the above tripe?  Especially since actual real world evidence proves it to be false.  Don't shut down critical thinking just because you go into the realm of religion.

Why don't all you Christian believers get your genome sequenced and see how much Neanderthal DNA you have in you? 

My theory that Cain was Adam and Eve's adopted Neanderthal child would explain why we have Neanderthal DNA.

What real world evidence proves what false? While I will admit that the gene-stuff could be total bunk (I just thought it seemed like an interesting way to put it), based on the info that we only know of a few children that Adam and Eve had from Genesis, and that all of them were men (Cain, Abel, Seth), there had to be women that came from somewhere for mating. If it all came from Adam and Eve, there would I'm assuming have to be incestuous stuff in the beginning to start the species off the spring-board for a chance of survival.

[MediumTex]

Do you literally believe the above tripe?  Especially since actual real world evidence proves it to be false.  Don't shut down critical thinking just because you go into the realm of religion.

Why don't all you Christian believers get your genome sequenced and see how much Neanderthal DNA you have in you? 

My theory that Cain was Adam and Eve's adopted Neanderthal child would explain why we have Neanderthal DNA.

What real world evidence proves what false? While I will admit that the gene-stuff could be total bunk (I just thought it seemed like an interesting way to put it), based on the info that we only know of a few children that Adam and Eve had from Genesis, and that all of them were men (Cain, Abel, Seth), there had to be women that came from somewhere for mating. If it all came from Adam and Eve, there would I'm assuming have to be incestuous stuff in the beginning to start the species off the spring-board for a chance of survival.

There would only have to be women if the story actually happened.

If it were allegory, the absence of daughters wouldn't be problematic at all.

[barrett]

I wrote that bitch from scratch.

Wait. Really?? MT-Zee, I follow thee.

I too thought it was copied and pasted.

[MediumTex]

I wrote that bitch from scratch.

Wait. Really?? MT-Zee, I follow thee.

I too thought it was copied and pasted.

I will take that as a compliment and re-post:

***

If there were a Heaven in the Old Testament, though, I don't think that King David would make it in, no matter how low you set the bar.  That dude was a world class thug.  His life reminds me of lyrics from a gangsta rap song:

You know how it's done?
Giant lurkin'
Rock in my sling
And now that giant's twerkin'
Down on the ground
And the blood is just a squirtin'
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?
From the hole in his dome that who caused?

That's motherfuckin' right

King David is my name
And you better believe I got mad game
Whether I'm puttin' giants on their backs
Or coordinatin' attacks
I turn my enemies to dust that swirls
As we make off with the plunder, and of course the girls

I got a special arrangement with God, you see
I do what I want, and he still loves me
We got crossways once, and it was over a bitch
My plan was clever as a weasel, but it ran into a hitch
I saw Bathsheba bathing, showing off her goods
So I gave it to her D-style, like we do in the hood
I gave it to her strong, but my game wasn't tight
I forgot she was married to Uriah the Hittite
No problem, though, I just sent Uriah to the battle
And when he got smoked, I made Bathsheba my chattel

Out of my wives she was just one of thirty
But everyone knew that she was the most dirty
I settled in and oh how I hit it
When Nathan the Prophet showed up and said God wanted me to quit it
I made like I was sorry, but God needed more
So he killed our first baby when it came out the door
But with the Uriah debt paid I kept on with Bathsheba
And fellas let me tell you, that bitch was a keepa

I knocked her up with Solomon, smartest dude in the world
But then I got old, and the drama just swirled
For Adonijah my oldest I had envisioned the throne
Alas! It was not to be, I should have known
Bathsheba had schemed and planned it all out
Her seed was Solomon and she gave him the clout
To step to the palace when my time had run out

So what is my message to all the players out there?
If you see a hot piece bathing, try not to stare
Because it may not be worth it, but then again it just might
Depending on how you feel about doing what's right
Didn't bother me none, and that's why I hit it like a king
I hit it like my jimmy was a rock from my sling
Cause I'm the king baby and that's how I roll
I'm God's boy and that's all that matters in this motherfuckin' show

[screwtape]

What real world evidence proves what false? While I will admit that the gene-stuff could be total bunk (I just thought it seemed like an interesting way to put it), based on the info that we only know of a few children that Adam and Eve had from Genesis, and that all of them were men (Cain, Abel, Seth), there had to be women that came from somewhere for mating. If it all came from Adam and Eve, there would I'm assuming have to be incestuous stuff in the beginning to start the species off the spring-board for a chance of survival.

There would only have to be women if the story actually happened.

If it were allegory, the absence of daughters wouldn't be problematic at all.

Not only do you need to find a wife for Cain in the story you have to find some more folks...

Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

So who was he afraid was going to kill him?

It does say in Genesis 5 that "After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters" but it says that Seth was born AFTER Cain slew Abel so that does seem to be a bit problematic to me.

This has led some to speculate that there were other humans created besides Adam and Eve.

It's hard to believe that whoever wrote this story didn't also see the problem and would have cleared it up for us if they were really trying to pass down literal history.

To me it's just storytelling. I don't even know if allegories were intended. We tend to find those ourselves when we look for them.  I've heard that Alice in Wonderland has a lot of them too.

[MediumTex]

I think that the ultimate explanation for all religions is that people believe in them because it makes them feel good.

Even being martyred sometimes feels good in the sense that it makes you sort of a celebrity within your religion and that means a lot to some people.

That may be really all there is to it.  People believe in it because they like believing in it.

[screwtape]

That may be really all there is to it.  People believe in it because they like believing in it.

This is one reason I don't like to be too aggressive about challenging other people's beliefs. We all need to get through this life as best we can.

It just ticks me off when they tell me I'm going to hell if I don't share their beliefs.

[Pointedstick]

I think that the ultimate explanation for all religions is that people believe in them because it makes them feel good.

Even being martyred sometimes feels good in the sense that it makes you sort of a celebrity within your religion and that means a lot to some people.

That may be really all there is to it.  People believe in it because they like believing in it.

And really, what's wrong with that?

Things seem to get into the weeds when people who believe something unprovable because they like believing it try to start proving it using itself. Never works. Why not just be content with quietly believing in its truth yourself without trying to convince others? Why bother? This is especially true in a universe of predestination: if you believe in the Christian God as well as predestination, then if I am destined to go to Heaven or Hell, that's simply what'll happen because God wills it, not because your efforts to convince me will succeed.

[screwtape]

And really, what's wrong with that?

Things seem to get into the weeds when people who believe something unprovable because they like believing it try to start proving it using itself. Never works. Why not just be content with quietly believing in its truth yourself without trying to convince others? Why bother? This is especially true in a universe of predestination: if you believe in the Christian God as well as predestination, then if I am destined to go to Heaven or Hell, that's simply what'll happen because God wills it, not because your efforts to convince me will succeed.

Brings us right back to the doctrine of hell, which it always does. If, as a Christian, you truly believe that others who don't believe what you believe are going to hell then you feel compelled to share your message. And if they were right, which they are convinced they are, they would be assholes for not doing it, wouldn't they?

[Pointedstick]

And really, what's wrong with that?

Things seem to get into the weeds when people who believe something unprovable because they like believing it try to start proving it using itself. Never works. Why not just be content with quietly believing in its truth yourself without trying to convince others? Why bother? This is especially true in a universe of predestination: if you believe in the Christian God as well as predestination, then if I am destined to go to Heaven or Hell, that's simply what'll happen because God wills it, not because your efforts to convince me will succeed.

Brings us right back to the doctrine of hell, which it always does. If, as a Christian, you truly believe that others who don't believe what you believe are going to hell then you feel compelled to share your message. And if they were right, which they are convinced they are, they would be assholes for not doing it, wouldn't they?

Only without predestination. If there is predestination (which I think I recall mountaineer saying he believes), meeting a non-believer should inspire no strong desires at all. God has willed everything, and controls everything, and determines everything, including all the details of that unbeliever's life. If that unbeliever dies an unbeliever, he will go to Hell because God wanted him to go to Hell; if he repents and accept God's promises, he will go to Heaven because God wanted him to go to Heaven. So if I am destined for Hell due to my having repeated contact with God's Word and rejecting it, God must have decided that I'm one of the Hell-bound folks, and that's that. To question that and try to convince me out of it would be to question God.

Right?

[screwtape]

And really, what's wrong with that?

Things seem to get into the weeds when people who believe something unprovable because they like believing it try to start proving it using itself. Never works. Why not just be content with quietly believing in its truth yourself without trying to convince others? Why bother? This is especially true in a universe of predestination: if you believe in the Christian God as well as predestination, then if I am destined to go to Heaven or Hell, that's simply what'll happen because God wills it, not because your efforts to convince me will succeed.

Brings us right back to the doctrine of hell, which it always does. If, as a Christian, you truly believe that others who don't believe what you believe are going to hell then you feel compelled to share your message. And if they were right, which they are convinced they are, they would be assholes for not doing it, wouldn't they?

Only without predestination. If there is predestination (which I think I recall mountaineer saying he believes), meeting a non-believer should inspire no strong desires at all. God has willed everything, and controls everything, and determines everything, including all the details of that unbeliever's life. If that unbeliever dies an unbeliever, he will go to Hell because God wanted him to go to Hell; if he repents and accept God's promises, he will go to Heaven because God wanted him to go to Heaven. So if I am destined for Hell due to my having repeated contact with God's Word and rejecting it, God must have decided that I'm one of the Hell-bound folks, and that's that. To question that and try to convince me out of it would be to question God.

Right?

Yes, PS. I think you have distilled what the Bible says about these things down pretty well. Mountaineer, or one of the other believers will have to correct your thinking on the subject if they can but I doubt it will make one bit of sense to you. That's because you and me both are under the influence of Satan and can't see the truth. Actually, I'm a lot worse off than you are since you haven't yet believed. There is absolutely no hope for me. The Bible tells me so.

[barrett]

There is absolutely no hope for me. The Bible tells me so.

Yeah, but on the bright side, long bonds really kicked ass today!

[screwtape]

There is absolutely no hope for me. The Bible tells me so.

Yeah, but on the bright side, long bonds really kicked ass today!

Really? From what I read they were going in the shitter soon! Glory Hallelujah!

[screwtape]

I think it's also worthwhile to separate the personality of Jesus versus the personality of God. God was quite vengeful in the old testament. Then God wanted to show more of his human side and brought down this perfect person to teach of the new relationship to God through him. There were reasons for all of the vengeful things that God did, even if we don't understand why ourselves. In my mind, we should be looking more towards the New Testament and emulating our lives after Christ, building our relationship to God through him, and learning how the Old Testament fits into the overall bigger picture of the New Testament.

Seems to me the Old Testament God comes back big time in the last book of the Bible, aka, Revelations. He even starts showing up before that after the writings of Paul. Peter's epistles get pretty nasty at times and Jude, right before Revelations sounds like one really angry dude to me.

[MediumTex]

That may be really all there is to it.  People believe in it because they like believing in it.

This is one reason I don't like to be too aggressive about challenging other people's beliefs. We all need to get through this life as best we can.

It just ticks me off when they tell me I'm going to hell if I don't share their beliefs.

Yes!

+1

[MediumTex]

I think it's also worthwhile to separate the personality of Jesus versus the personality of God. God was quite vengeful in the old testament. Then God wanted to show more of his human side and brought down this perfect person to teach of the new relationship to God through him. There were reasons for all of the vengeful things that God did, even if we don't understand why ourselves. In my mind, we should be looking more towards the New Testament and emulating our lives after Christ, building our relationship to God through him, and learning how the Old Testament fits into the overall bigger picture of the New Testament.

Seems to me the Old Testament God comes back big time in the last book of the Bible, aka, Revelations. He even starts showing up before that after the writings of Paul. Peter's epistles get pretty nasty at times and Jude, right before Revelations sounds like one really angry dude to me.

I always figured that the writer of Revelation was under the influence of mushrooms or something like that.

You can try to interpret Revelation in countless ways, but honestly it's just a bunch of scary incoherent symbolism that is like an Armageddon-themed Rorschach Test for Christians.

[moda0306]

That may be really all there is to it.  People believe in it because they like believing in it.

This is one reason I don't like to be too aggressive about challenging other people's beliefs. We all need to get through this life as best we can.

It just ticks me off when they tell me I'm going to hell if I don't share their beliefs.

Yes!

+1

Really that doesn't tick me off that much. If it is true, it is true. What ticks me off is the basis upon which they act like they are simply accepting god's promise while I'm effectively slapping him in the face by even asking questions about a book that I don't really think he had much of a hand in writing.

[screwtape]

I always figured that the writer of Revelation was under the influence of mushrooms or something like that.

You can try to interpret Revelation in countless ways, but honestly it's just a bunch of scary incoherent symbolism that is like an Armageddon-themed Rorschach Test for Christians.

Did some of those mushrooms in my day so I hear you.

Revelations starts out claiming it is about things that "must shortly come to pass". I think you have to stretch the meaning of "shortly" to put it off into the future the way that Christians have. You can say "shortly" means something different to God than it does to us but it seems to me that it was written to us. If not, what was the point?

Having said that my sister died in a canoe accident when she was 21 and I was still a believer and I remember the whole family sitting around the room and I read the last couple of chapters about the New Jerusalem with no more sickness and no more pain and it just seemed to lift everyone's spirit in a way that was palpable. So go figure.