Deflate Gate

[madbean]

Anybody else have an opinion on this most important story in the news?

Always been a fan of Tom Brady though I don't know why. Maybe I've developed a man crush in my old age. I liked Joe Montana too who was Tom's boyhood idol. When and if I ever grow up I want to be like them both (which hopefully not only includes being able to throw such a pretty spiral but also marrying a babe like Giselle Bundchen).

One thing I found interesting in the report that said Tom was probably involved in deflating the balls was the footnote that said that after the balls were re-inflated to the correct pressure in the second half his passing numbers actually got better. In other words, this is just a lot of pissing in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

If he ends up getting suspended for even one game for this I think if I was him I would tell the commissioner I decided to retire from the sport just so I could see the look on his face. The opening game for New England is against Pittsburgh which means Tom Brady vs. Ben Roethlisberger. What do u think the difference in TV ratings will be if it turns out to be Jimmy Garoppolo (Tom Brady's backup) vs Roethlisberger.  They might be able to make up for it with Tom Brady's comeback game after his suspension but if I was him I'd tell them to go F*** themselves and walk away.

They say this will tarnish his legacy and if he walks away they'll say even worse things but what do you really have to prove to anybody in football when you have 4 superbowl rings you can wear on your fingers? Just go enjoy life with Giselle and your kids, I say. I'll have more respect for him if he does that.

And on a somewhat related note, anybody else watch the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight?

[dragoncar]

Lol, I thought this was another post on how all PP assets are deflating.

[Tyler]

Brady's a great QB, and this doesn't take away from his wins.  But if the league lets him off with no real punishment, I think a lot of fans will rightly revolt.  The Patriots are such notorious cheaters that most people think the owner must have goods on Goodell.  Waiting four months to release the report doesn't help matters, nor does the floating of the results ahead of a formal announcement in order to likely judge fan reaction before deciding on a punishment.  The league is quickly losing the trust of the fans.  They're in a tough spot. 

[Stewardship]

My favorite part of the fight



Nope.

[flyingpylon]

Brady's a great QB, and this doesn't take away from his wins.

Of course it does.  If at the end of the day you've got wins but no integrity, you've got nothing.

Okay, nothing but gobs of money, 4 Super Bowl rings and a hot wife... but what's so great about that?

[bedraggled]

THought you would want to discuss LTTs in a 1930s style deflation.

Football? Oh.

Do you think baseball has suffered from the intro of the designated hitter more than 40 years ago?  I do.

[rickb]

Is it cheating if you don't get caught?

Is it cheating if you knowingly do something against the rules whether it actually helps you or not?

If you cheat for several years and don't get caught is it unfair to penalize you now?

I'm thinking the answers are "yes", "yes", and "no", but apparently opinions vary.

Perhaps Congress should designate the Patriots as Too Big To Fail and pass a law giving them a gazillion dollars to bail them out from these ridiculous accusations.

[WildAboutHarry]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  The officials (often more than one) handled the ball on EVERY PLAY.  They are supposed to be running the game.  If they didn't spot the discrepancy, then it never happened.

Lawyer ball is bad for sports.

[flyingpylon]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  The officials (often more than one) handled the ball on EVERY PLAY.  They are supposed to be running the game.  If they didn't spot the discrepancy, then it never happened.

Lawyer ball is bad for sports.

Except that this isn't lawyer ball.  The discrepancy was noticed by players and team staff, who alerted officials.  The officials then tested the balls and verified the discrepancy.

Surely you're not saying that participants should not bring issues to the attention of officials.

What if in the financial markets there were "discrepancies" noticed by participants but not by the SEC?  Should they not be reported?

Is something illegal only if you get caught?

[iwealth]

So Brady does something "illegal" in the context of his own sport and we're supposed to admire him if he thumbs his nose at the NFL and walks away from the game? As if he didn't know the risks. As if he didn't run through every single possible scenario resulting from his actions.

Ask Lance Armstrong about that whole not having to prove anything to anybody with all of those rings.

[flyingpylon]

Have you ever played craps in Vegas? The croupiers can palm a stack of 20 chips and tell by feel if it one chip light or heavy because the do it so often. If the balls were that under-inflated, the officials, who handle the balls constantly throughout every game, should have instantly been able to tell just by feel that something wasn't right.

And your point is... ?

Have you ever paid taxes?  It's possible to file a return and get a huge refund check but if you get audited several years later you can still go to jail for tax evasion because you cheated.  Should tax laws be amended to say that tax evasion is only illegal if the IRS catches it immediately?

[Mountaineer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  The officials (often more than one) handled the ball on EVERY PLAY.  They are supposed to be running the game.  If they didn't spot the discrepancy, then it never happened.

Lawyer ball is bad for sports.

Except that this isn't lawyer ball.  The discrepancy was noticed by players and team staff, who alerted officials.  The officials then tested the balls and verified the discrepancy.

Surely you're not saying that participants should not bring issues to the attention of officials.

What if in the financial markets there were "discrepancies" noticed by participants but not by the SEC?  Should they not be reported?

Is something illegal only if you get caught?

Have you ever played craps in Vegas? The croupiers can palm a stack of 20 chips and tell by feel if it one chip light or heavy because the do it so often. If the balls were that under-inflated, the officials, who handle the balls constantly throughout every game, should have instantly been able to tell just by feel that something wasn't right.

A little information on weight of chips and footballs:

http://www.epokerdeals.com/How_much_do_ ... _s/114.htm

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/o/oldenburgj/ ... WtCalc.pdf

It seems it would be a bit difficult to detect the weight of a slightly underinflated football.  Now, its "squishiness", that is another matter. 

... Mountaineer

[Ad Orientem]

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=flyingpylon]Have you ever paid taxes?  It's possible to file a return and get a huge refund check but if you get audited several years later you can still go to jail for tax evasion because you cheated.  Should tax laws be amended to say that tax evasion is only illegal if the IRS catches it immediately?[/quote]

Apples and oranges.  A football game is played and evaluated in real time.  The officials are in charge of the rules and must make on-the-spot judgments and enforce of the rules.  And the rules are always being stretched.

Brylcreem on baseballs.  Soccer keepers shading off the goal line during penalty kicks.  Boxers with their trunks pulled up to their armpits to fake low blows.  Etc. Etc.

Taxes are not evaluated in real time.  One side gets time to prepare and one side gets time to review.  Discrepancies can be raised by either party (amended return/audits).

The Patriots videotaping scandal or the Saints headhunting issues were of necessity not evaluated in real time.  But the play of the game, on the field, including the conduct of the game, the state of the equipment, must be evaluated in real time.

[Tyler]

The Patriots videotaping scandal or the Saints headhunting issues were of necessity not evaluated in real time.  But the play of the game, on the field, including the conduct of the game, the state of the equipment, must be evaluated in real time.

The problem is that there was a system in place for the officials to specifically inspect the equipment before the game that the Patriots deliberately circumvented.  That the officials didn't immediately notice a change from the game balls they approved using the normal process does not change the fact that the Patriots intentionally broke the rules. 

[madbean]

So Brady does something "illegal" in the context of his own sport and we're supposed to admire him if he thumbs his nose at the NFL and walks away from the game? As if he didn't know the risks. As if he didn't run through every single possible scenario resulting from his actions.

Ask Lance Armstrong about that whole not having to prove anything to anybody with all of those rings.

Wow, I think comparing Brady to Armstrong's dope taking really is apples and oranges even if Brady did order the code red.

By the admission of the investigator in a footnote of the report, he performed better when the balls were inflated in the second half so he got no advantage from it like Armstrong did. And I haven't heard anything about the balls being deflated in the super bowl. The idea that he cheated his way to a super bowl ring just doesn't wash for me.

And yes, I think he could still walk away with his self-respect intact after telling them to shove it. He's played a big part in making football the most popular sport in America in the last 12 years, more so than any of the owners, coaches, or the league commissioner. It's like me getting laid off from my company where I work as a software engineer, after being a major contributor to its success for many years. I actually expect that this is going to happen soon if I don't retire on my own but if it does I'll walk out with my head held high and not think of them for another moment.

And what about Jerry Rice. He's admitted he put sticky stuff on his fingers. Are they going to remove him from the Hall of Fame?

[iwealth]

Wow, I think comparing Brady to Armstrong's dope taking really is apples and oranges even if Brady did order the code red.

By the admission of the investigator in a footnote of the report, he performed better when the balls were inflated in the second half so he got no advantage from it like Armstrong did. And I haven't heard anything about the balls being deflated in the super bowl. The idea that he cheated his way to a super bowl ring just doesn't wash for me.

And yes, I think he could still walk away with his self-respect intact after telling them to shove it. He's played a big part in making football the most popular sport in America in the last 12 years, more so than any of the owners, coaches, or the league commissioner. It's like me getting laid off from my company where I work as a software engineer, after being a major contributor to its success for many years. I actually expect that this is going to happen soon if I don't retire on my own but if it does I'll walk out with my head held high and not think of them for another moment.

And what about Jerry Rice. He's admitted he put sticky stuff on his fingers. Are they going to remove him from the Hall of Fame?

In Armstrong's case, it's generally understood that many of the top riders were/are doping. So that advantage sort of evens itself out. And I'm not disputing other QB's may be deflating balls. But the issue of Brady's legacy won't be determined by whether or not there was a measurable competitive advantage. There probably wasn't much of one. At this point it's just about integrity.

I don't dispute that Jerry Rice cheated. If the NFL Hall of Fame wants to vote him out, that's their prerogative. In his defense, he casually (and unsolicited) admitted guilt whereas Brady is denying any wrongdoing and not providing his records to the investigators. Heck, even Armstrong eventually admitted guilt. I'm sure Brady will do the same.

Brady's stats were better in the 2nd half, I don't dispute that. But is it really relevant? Getting coached up at halftime or a change in the Colts' 2nd half defensive schemes could cause this. Either way the question that continues to eat away at me is if there was legitimately no competitive advantage to deflating the balls, why on earth would you take this risk?

You getting laid off is one thing, but quitting because you were reprimanded for stealing an immaterial amount of money from the company is a different story.

[madbean]

Brady's stats were better in the 2nd half, I don't dispute that. But is it really relevant?

Very relevant I think, if you really love football as I always have for some inexplicable reason. I admire the pure talent. I don't watch football because I admire their integrity in following the rules. I might feel differently if it really gave him a competitive advantage but it obviously did not.

[madbean]

You getting laid off is one thing, but quitting because you were reprimanded for stealing an immaterial amount of money from the company is a different story.

Well that could happen because my company provides me with an iPhone which I gave to my wife for her personal use because I don't need it. Having not gotten a raise at all this year I view it as a company benefit.

So I am a very dishonest person, to be sure, but I work for a company that always walks a fine line between what is legal and what is not (kind of like the government) and I don't feel too bad about it.

[flyingpylon]

But the play of the game, on the field, including the conduct of the game, the state of the equipment, must be evaluated in real time.

The balls were found to be underinflated at halftime of the AFC Championship (i.e. during the game, in real time).  It was only the investigation of how they became that way that was conducted after the fact.  Had the investigation found that there was some natural or unintentional cause it would have been no big deal.  But instead, they found that members of the Patriots organization purposefully circumvented the rules, and then lied about it.

Regardless of whether anyone thinks the rules are stupid, or the infraction made no difference, rules are rules.  You don't have much of a professional sports league if you don't enforce the rules.

[Tyler]

Suspended without pay for four games.

Also, the team is fined $1mm and loses two picks, including their 1st round pick next season.

https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/p ... 9457955029

[iwealth]

Suspended without pay for four games.

Also, the team is fined $1mm and loses two picks, including their 1st round pick next season.

https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/p ... 9457955029

Yikes. I expected the Brady suspension to be between 1-4 games, but losing that 1st round pick...brutal.

[madbean]

I still say Tom should just take his 4 super bowl rings and his deflated footballs and go home to Giselle. I heard he was talking about going into acting any way.

So much pissin' in the wind about nothing I've never seen in sports before.

[madbean]

Suspended without pay for four games.

Also, the team is fined $1mm and loses two picks, including their 1st round pick next season.

https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/p ... 9457955029

Yikes. I expected the Brady suspension to be between 1-4 games, but losing that 1st round pick...brutal.

$1mm would be pocket change for the Patriots. I'm sure the Bradys don't live paycheck to paycheck so missing 4 of them won't hurt that bad.  There's always Giselle's money to help out if things get tight. The 1st round pick is probably a big deal though.

Unless you are lucky enough to make a lucky sixth-round pick that works out well for your organization in the long run.

[WildAboutHarry]

Here come the appeals.

More lawyer ball.