Benko wrote:
Moda
"I'm pretty sure that their reaction is going to do the right more political harm than Obama's comments will do the left political harm"
The point I was trying to make is that you are further left then you may realize and thus I suspect you lack perspective on how most people will view things. Basically I don't think the reaction to Obamas speech is going to hurt anyone. Why? Anyone was has ever discussed Islamic follower related violence has had the word "crusades" tossed into their face. But you can't put yourself in their place.
moda0306 wrote:
3) "Lunatics" was far too harsh of a term. Reub used it first (not trying to sound like a child here... just explaining) so I continued the use of the term. I think there are fringe liberals and conservatives that see their opposition as evil, lunatics, etc. .
Because the left and right are the same, use the same tactics, etc. Except they are not and don't. No one center or right of center believes this. Of course people on the left believe this.
moda0306 wrote:
I do believe government should have the power, or ability to influence, the cost of material externalities that are experienced via pollution.
Of course you do. Again I dont think you have perspective on how 100, 1000 or 100K people view your statements.
moda0306 wrote:
I don't think many groups see themselves as wanting to "control others," so much as control what they see as their morally legitimate sphere of influence. Capitalists and communists, alike. They just disagree on what that sphere of influence is.
"morally legitimate "
Because the left knows what is best for everyone and has a right (no duty) to impose it.
Insert link to cartoon
"ideas so good they have to be mandatory"
A few things:
1) If you don't think that there aren't plenty on the right that don't think the left has a lot of "lunatics," I don't know what to say. Isn't "loony lefties" a common term in right-wing punditry? And of course plenty on the right think some on the left are "evil." Ever get one of those emails discussing Obama's likelihood of being the anti-Christ? I mean maybe "evil" is too harsh of a term in many cases, but there are tons of righties that HATE liberals.
I'm really quite surprised we disagree on this.
2) If we're talking public policy, I DO realize that I have some
very liberal positions. I also have some quite conservative/libertarian ones as well. Overall, I'm probably left of center, but I have some very fringe opinions on both sides, and usually have a pretty (admittedly arrogant) "technocrat" preference in government policy.
I mean, when I question capitalist property norms, I'm probably making points that almost no liberal politician would dare make. However, when I say that a business owner should be able to hire, fire, promote or pay someone any way he wants, and that it's up to the individuals to negotiate their position, and if women are paid less than men, so-be-it, I'm saying things very few conservative politicians would have the balls to say.
So when we debate what global warming policy should be, I realize I'm a bit intolerant of the majority. However, I would argue that the topic is actually at a tipping point of public opinion where significant action CAN be taken with public support, so I'm not really just living in "technocrat-ville" when I talk about global warming (though the way I talk about it, surely, isn't how most Americans are gonna talk about it.
3) When I'm talking about "morally legitimate," I'm talking about in the eyes of the beholder. Conservatives as well as liberals. Conservatives consider strip mining land for raw materials to be within their "morally legitimate" sphere of influence. Because "the right knows what's best for everyone and has a right (no duty) to impose it?" Nah. I would argue that this isn't a good description, but if it applies to liberals, it applies to conservatives. We all live on this rock together, man. It's really difficult to have an entirely un-coercive moral philosophy without being a pacifist Buddhist nomad, or something close to it.
Your inability to see this at all in the right's mindset of history, property and government is really coloring your view of this overall scenario, I think. Similar to your assertion of the right-wing's views towards some liberals (whether they're "lunatics" or even "evil"), I think you have a very skewed perspective on liberals, at least as it pertains to backing up and taking a look at all philosophies with a similar filter for bullsh!t and hypocrisy.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
