Romney

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Kbg
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Re: Romney

Post by Kbg »

This is a fun forum...who'd a thunk. Came here to get more engaged in PP stuff, dipped into the off topic section, wanted to choke the crap out of moda in one thread, and total allies in this one.  :D

The unnecessary civil war resulted in the unnecessary deaths of more than 600,000 Americans.

Pinning this one on Lincoln? Last time I checked there was this Ft Sumter thing in S.C. Let's cut the crap here. The South seceded because it wanted to continue a peculiar institution and knew it was simply a matter of time before it would be legally and lawfully abolished. Unnecessary civil war??? War is never "necessary." Wars are fought because political agreement cannot be found. As Clausewitz so rightly put it, war is an extension of politics by other means. States rights, slavery, right to secession...pick your favorite. The Civil War resolved everyone of them.

Lincoln imposed the first federal income tax.

True. Name a modern advanced country that isn't petrocarbon wealthy that doesn't have one of these now? Also, please don't forget to add it was also abolished after the war was over. As Ben Franklin liked to say, half truths are the greatest of lies. Yes Lincoln was dead, I know that. Also, don't forget that the US was in the initial throes of urbanization and the tax base had changed greatly.

Lincoln imposed the first federal mandatory conscription.

True. The civil war is generally acknowledged as the first significant war of the industrial revolution as well. We just happened to be at the cutting edge of history. And, it worked.

Lincoln set the precedent for secession being punishable by death in the USA. Throughout the rest of the world, secession is usually a peacefully and mutually beneficial affair.

Interesting choice of the words "secession being punishable by death." I'm pretty sure over half the country viewed it as treason which was punishable by death from the start of American history. Being shot, run through with a sword, stoned, enslaved etc. has pretty much been the standard for rebellion since time immemorial. Every signatory to the Declaration of Independence would have been hung, but we won.

One of my favorite aspects of Civil War history is the final six months of the Confederate goverment in VA...the legislative acts they passed really exposed the entire lie that was the supposed moral high ground of secession and demonstrated the absolute practical failure in application of the southern implementation of what was also basically the US Constitution. I'm personally glad I'm not a member of one of the 50 Banana Republics of America...if the South would have won, how many more wars would have been fought here? Ponder that counter-factual for awhile.

I've spent a significant part of my adult life south of the Mason-Dixon line and on one hand it bothers me that there is such PC with regards to honoring the soldiers who fought in gray. I think most of them believed they were doing the right thing as they saw it to paraphrase Lincoln, but I personally draw the line hard on what their government was fighting for. It was not good, nor just, or in any way defensible morally and the symbols of that government are odious to me personally.

More importantly...how'd we get to debating the civil war in a Romney thread. :-)
Last edited by Kbg on Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xan
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Re: Romney

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So what's your position on honoring American veterans of the Revolutionary War?
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Re: Romney

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moda0306 wrote: As good of ideas as the founding fathers had, they were in the end just arbitrary ways to split up power.  The basis of the entire power structure of the South was taking a white male population that claimed land as their own and forced slaves to work on it.  These things were essentially Banana Republics.  If you want to argue that the federal government had little real legitimacy (an argument I can respect in some ways), then state governments, especially those of the South, were complete jokes.
I find it really interesting that the Supreme Court outlawed non-integration on interstate buses way back in 1946 and the South simply ignored it.  The highest law of the land.  Man, that is serious chutzpah.

I'm convinced the South took the embarassment and shame of its Civil War defeat and took it out on black Americans by continually supressing them as third class citizens.  There's just no other excuse for their morally reprehensible behavior for over 150 years.  What's worse, they basically all got off scott free.  No justice.  And I'm sure there's still a lot of old, white Southerners still alive that haven't repented.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lowe
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Re: Romney

Post by Lowe »

Xan wrote:So what's your position on honoring American veterans of the Revolutionary War?
I imagine one would draw the distinction between fighting for freedom from high taxes, and fighting to maintain slavery.

Not that the Confederate soldiers would have seen their goal as maintaining slavery.  They probably saw it as the continued sovereignty of their states.  In a way they were right about that, since states have since then lost most of their sovereignty.
MachineGhost wrote:
Lowe wrote:The problem with Jeb Bush is that he looks soft and weak.  Whether he is those things, is beside the point.  The guy looks like a caricature of an accountant.  The glasses don't help.  That he would be running after his older brother, makes worse the image of him as a person with no internal compass or personal strength.
I looked up his track record.  I'm liking him far more than Romney who really didn't do much while in office, just signed bills from the legislature (but took credit for them).

Lets just elect a damn woman and get it over with.  But then I guess we'll have to elect an Asian, a Hispanic, an Arab, etc. before everyone finally gets down to serious business.  ::)
I don't know Jeb's track record, but I admit it would not make a difference to whether I personally supported him.  I don't support politicians.  I was just remarking on his poor electability.
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Xan
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Re: Romney

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Lowe wrote:
Xan wrote:So what's your position on honoring American veterans of the Revolutionary War?
I imagine one would draw the distinction between fighting for freedom from high taxes, and fighting to maintain slavery.
My main point is that if you're going to go with the "treason" charge, then you have to consider:

* Seceding from Britain in 1776
* Seceding from the Articles of Confederation (a "perpetual union") in 1788/9, which not all states wanted to do, but those which didn't were left holding the bag when the others did
* Seceding from the US in 1861

Of the three, clearly the LEAST illegal was the 1861 secession.

In fact, "legal" doesn't really apply to this kind of thing.  Secession is (almost) always extra-legal.
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Re: Romney

Post by Lowe »

AFAIK you are right that secession has always extralegal.  However the moral reasoning justifying Southern secession left something to be wanted, when compared with the moral reasoning of the Revolution.

It makes more sense to me to honor people who fought against tyranny, however unreasonably, than to honor people who fought to uphold it, however reasonably.  When I think about the Civil War I tend more toward grief than admiration.
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Re: Romney

Post by Mountaineer »

Lowe wrote: AFAIK you are right that secession has always extralegal.  However the moral reasoning justifying Southern secession left something to be wanted, when compared with the moral reasoning of the Revolution.

It makes more sense to me to honor people who fought against tyranny, however unreasonably, than to honor people who fought to uphold it, however reasonably.  When I think about the Civil War I tend more toward grief than admiration.
Not to sidetrack, but where did those "morals" come from on which you are making the judgment?  North?  South?  Britain?  Rebels?  Something exteral to the participants?  Other?

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
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Re: Romney

Post by Pointedstick »

Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
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MachineGhost
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Re: Romney

Post by MachineGhost »

Serious?  That dipshit is running again?  He's more like The Creature from Mitt!

Well, one thing you could argue is he's not after the Presidency to get rich or for a lifelong pension with Secret Service detail.  Unlike Obama.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Romney

Post by MachineGhost »

Pointedstick wrote: Aaaaaand that's the end of Mitt.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/m ... ml?hp=t1_r
Hip Hip Hurray!!!

Clinton is still leading.  Bush is still trailing.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
Reub
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Re: Romney

Post by Reub »

I hear she's leading from her behind.
Libertarian666
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Re: Romney

Post by Libertarian666 »

Good; he is and was a turkey.
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