Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

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TripleB
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Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by TripleB »

With the proposed 529 changes, it's another confirmation that many people's suspicions, including my own for several years, are a little more likely to happen, and tax treatment on Roth IRAs may change. I'm starting this thread to discuss what forms this may take, what the signals/signs/precursors may be (so we can prepare to enact our plans), and finally, what might be appropriate responses. This is mostly mental masturbation at this point because there's so many possibilities but masturbating is fun.  ;)

I've long suggested the government is not likely to outright tax Roth IRAs. That would be egregious and ballsy. Also, unprecedented (to my understanding). I suspect it will be more sinister like social security. Initially, social security was tax-free. Then they added means testing to tax a portion of it. You know, if you're wealthy and are withdrawing $20k from your 401k every year in retirement, then you can afford to pay taxes on your social security. The government can then double-down on their dirty tricks and do things like set the means testing not be adjusted for inflation. So every year, more and more people gradually get dinged by it. Like AMT.

The way I suspect this will look for Roth IRAs is:

1) Means testing such that Roth IRAs are tax-free, provided you have under a certain income. "Roth IRAs were never meant to be tax havens for the ultra wealthy 1%ers. They were meant for the everyday common man, scraping together a little here and there for the future. If someone has over $100k in their IRA, they got there through unfair means and we need to level the playing field for the middle class worker."

2) Federal VAT. While Roth IRAs are income tax free, if we change the tax system in the US such that we add a VAT (possibly with the promise of reducing the income tax simultaneously), then the Roth IRA remains untaxed at the income level, but with a  20% VAT, it means you can only use the money to buy <80% less things.

3) Means testing for social security such that if you have a certain level of money in your aggregate IRAs, you aren't eligible for social security or it's phased down significantly. The calculator for SS could be changed such that if you have nothing in an IRA, you get more than the current level, but if you have an IRA you get less. A fair balance since the people who have large IRAs don't need social security which was meant to help the poor.

I imagine all three of these could come into effect. I see federal VAT not being implemented specifically to target Roth IRAs because I don't think the amount of money in Roth IRAs in the US is large enough to justify this kind of a move. However, I see it as a collateral damage of such a shift. The way I see it occurring is an argument that the wealthy are hiding behind tax shields, paying less taxes* than their secretaries, and we need to change the system to make it fair by adding a VAT so when the fat cat CEOs go to buy a private jet, they pay their fair share of tax. Regular middle class people will be better off under this new fair taxation structure.

*the uber wealthy pay less marginal tax rate than their secretaries, albeit paying 1,000,000x more nominal taxes because their tax base is significantly higher.

With respect to using IRAs as a form of means testing, the obvious answer is "pull out the principal contributions from the Roth IRA, tax-free, principal free if you're under 59.5, immediately, so you don't get caught in that means test. Or, if you're older than 59.5, take the whole thing out tax-free. The problem with this strategy is if the government is specifically making a new system to screw over people with Roth IRAs (or large IRAs/401ks in general), then the legislation will include a look back period, retroactively.

Such that, if you had an IRA with a balance of above $X at any time in the last 5 years, then that's used by the means testing.

Given that as a possible parameter, how can be avoid that? First, let's identify the political framework for which such legislation might be passed, and begin considering pulling out IRA money before things get proposed officially. As an example, if you're in Venezuela and the government is talking about seizing private bank accounts, it's already too late. But if you notice the government is corrupt and broke, and seizing private bank accounts is all that's left, then it's time to consider action in advance while there's still time.

What might this look like in the US re: new IRA laws?
a) Democratic control of congress and executive branch; in the current iteration of republicans, this won't pass
b) Another political movement like Occupy Wallstreet where people are brainwashed into hating "wealthy" people
c) A growing divide between the rich and the poor. It's growing as we speak, and the bigger it gets, the greater risk of IRA changes
d) Talks about imminent insolvency of social security and a need to reform the system

These are the canaries. If they start dying, it may be time to cash out your IRA for gold coins and go on a boat trip.

Further, consider how the government would impose such IRA means testing restrictions. They would need to know how much every American has in their IRA every year. Currently, while the government certainly has access to that data, I don't believe it's in an easy-to-read aggregated location for the IRS/CMS/SSA to access. In order to do means testing, the government would need to have Americans file a new form with their taxes each year, for the total amount of their IRA/401k holdings. Custodians would be required to submit paperwork to each taxpayer and a copy to the government, like 1099s are today.

The government may be stupid, but not when it comes to stealing money and in that respect, they are insidious. Don't think "they" will propose IRA means testing legislation with a retroactive backdating period, and not have already been collecting this IRA balance information for several years, to ensure their backtesting can maximize tax revenue.

What this means is when the government is considering this type of IRA Means Testing (either for additional taxation or reduction/elimination of SS benefits), they will come up with an excuse to force Americans to start filing IRA balances on their tax returns for several years leading up to the point where the new anti-IRA legislation is even discussed publicly. Perhaps it will be to combat terrorism or child pornography, since IRAs are where those two criminal groups hide their assets. Or, perhaps it will be to ensure Americans receive their IRA distributions tax-free, as promised, without question. Regardless of how they frame it, once declaring your annual 401k/IRA balances becomes part of mandatory tax filings, that's your biggest canary to bail out.

The second biggest canary is having similar, weaker legislation proposed. The government is keen on testing the waters to see what they can get away with. Like going to war with Syria. It's a lot like a teenage boy having a "random" discussion about another kid from school who's parents let him get a tattoo and how cool it is. The teen boy is not asking his parents if HE can get a tattoo, he's seeing whether his parents say "tattoos are stupid and that kid's parents should be shot for letting him get one". And if the parents say that, the kid knows to shut his mouth and not even ask. The government pulls this regularly. CISPA was another good one recently.

I don't know what this weaker form of IRA taxation legislation would look like, but as soon as there's any hint of even a dilute form of it being discussed (such as limit IRAs to $1M total), then we're one step closer. Perhaps this $1M annual restriction, will be the stated justification for mandating all Americans file their IRA balances on their tax returns each year. And 99.99% of people won't care because they have well under $1M.

But of course, that $1M won't be pegged for inflation. And it may be discussed in public as $1M, but in the actual legislation there's an asterisk that says $1M per household, $500k per single taxpayer, and all of the sudden the government cut that threshold in half, instantly. Much like Obama is fond of saying he will never propose to raise taxes on people making less than $250k per year, what he means is FAMILIES making $250k per year, or individuals making $125k.

Because clearly, a single male living in San Francisco or Manhattan making $125k/year is uber wealthy living in his fat-cat $2500/month studio apartment with combination toilet/kitchen sink/bathtub.

Another possibility is when more "wealthy" Americans decide to shrug and leave, the government may block people from taking IRA assets out of the country before age 60. You know... to "ensure the appropriate taxes will be paid during retirement and distribution". Or more likely just tax the whole thing if you move out of the country, because (with a traditional IRA/401k), you didn't pay taxes on that money when you got it, you deferred it, and if you leave the country before paying those taxes, you're cheating. And, Roth IRAs will somehow get lumped into that, too. And this may also be justification to mandate annual reporting of IRA/401k assets to government. As well as include restrictions on liquidating/withdrawing IRA/401k accounts, to prevent tax-cheats from leaving the country. Maybe the restriction is only taking out 20% of your total account balance per calendar month. To prevent international escape. With the side benefit of when future IRA taxation is added to every American, the people who decide to clear out their IRAs will be legally unable to due to this restriction.

SUMMARY:

IRA/401k changes are likely to occur in the future because government can never steal enough money from tax payers. Currently, it makes sense to max these accounts out, but as time progresses, and we inch closer to the point of screwing over IRA/401k owners, we will need to develop an exit strategy and it will need to be implemented in advance of legislation, possibly several years in advance. Thus, we need to monitor the political climate for clues that this is going to happen, such as:

1) Democrats in power
2) Discussions of any form of restrictions on IRAs/401ks, for any reason, whether it be maximum lifetime aggregate levels, withdrawal restrictions, or country exit taxes.
3) Mandated reporting to government of IRA/401k balances is another key indicator that imminent legislation to tax these accounts is in the works.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by WildAboutHarry »

With tax-deferred IRAs and 401(k)s the fed has always been your "silent" partner (i.e. they own 25% or so).

With Roth's, any inkling of a change in tax policy directed at taxing the funds as they come out could be defeated by simply withdrawing the whole amount, as you say.  VAT is more insidious.

I suspect that with any significant changes, the grandfathers and grandmothers will be "grandfathered" in to previous tax treatment.  But then there is that VAT.

[quote=TripleB]Because clearly, a single male living in San Francisco or Manhattan making $125k/year is uber wealthy living in his fat-cat $2500/month studio apartment with combination toilet/kitchen sink/bathtub.[/quote]

But I'm not bitter! :)
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by WiseOne »

Whatever happens with Roths, they can only tax earnings as they're withdrawn, not contributions.  That would be double jeopardy since the contributions were already taxed.  What they'd do is effectively turn it into a nondeductible IRA.

That would still suck because ordinary income tax rates are higher than capital gains/dividend rates.  And I suspect all of you are correct, it'll happen someday.  I just hope there will be enough warning to get the money out (or as much as possible) before the new taxes hit.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by TripleB »

WiseOne wrote: Whatever happens with Roths, they can only tax earnings as they're withdrawn, not contributions.  That would be double jeopardy since the contributions were already taxed.
;D Keep on thinking the government can't do something because it wouldn't be fair.  ;)

You don't think the government could spin it such that the uber wealthy with $1M in aggregate retirement accounts have been skirting taxes unfairly, and a 10%+ tax on all retirement account assets above $1M (whether Roth or Tax-Deferred), to pay for social security that's otherwise broke? And by $1M, I mean family income of $1M which is $500k per individual.

It's reasonable for someone to get $500k in retirement accounts over a lifetime of contributions and growth. It's also reasonable for the government to paint someone with "Over $1M in retirement assets using loopholes to keep from paying their fair share while the needy who worked for these fat cat 1%ers can't afford food in retirement?"

Never underestimate the ability of governments to justify theft through new taxes.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by Tyler »

TripleB wrote:
1) Means testing such that Roth IRAs are tax-free, provided you have under a certain income. "Roth IRAs were never meant to be tax havens for the ultra wealthy 1%ers. They were meant for the everyday common man, scraping together a little here and there for the future. If someone has over $100k in their IRA, they got there through unfair means and we need to level the playing field for the middle class worker."

2) Federal VAT. While Roth IRAs are income tax free, if we change the tax system in the US such that we add a VAT (possibly with the promise of reducing the income tax simultaneously), then the Roth IRA remains untaxed at the income level, but with a  20% VAT, it means you can only use the money to buy <80% less things.

3) Means testing for social security such that if you have a certain level of money in your aggregate IRAs, you aren't eligible for social security or it's phased down significantly. The calculator for SS could be changed such that if you have nothing in an IRA, you get more than the current level, but if you have an IRA you get less. A fair balance since the people who have large IRAs don't need social security which was meant to help the poor.

I imagine all three of these could come into effect.
I could see #s 1 and 2 both getting consideration.  #3 would be a harder sell, as it so obviously and unabashedly punishes savers that I'm not sure how it passes over more indirect options.  It would basically kill IRAs for good.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by barrett »

Excellent outline, TripleB. You are on a roll lately!

I suspect you are right about eventual taxes on Roth accounts but I am thinking that the means limit might be considerably higher than 1M$. People are slowly getting used to the fact that 1M$ is not a great amount of money, especially if the value of one's home is included in the total. Think about how politicians now are so comfortable talking about "no new taxes on those with household income over $250,000." To extrapolate from the point you already made, they don't dare say "No new taxes on those with incomes over $125,000." I'm just saying that as people get used to the fact that a "millionaire" isn't necessarily rich, the limit will be somewhat higher.

The data here are relevant:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/01/ ... lionaires/

I absolutely think it's wise to look for signs that the Roth tax may be coming. If and when that happens, I think holding gold coins might protect a certain percentage of one's wealth from taxes.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by madbean »

I don't doubt that they might try to tax Roth accounts and I think Craig even believes they will come after even more of your retirement savings and not just by taxation.

But making plans for this strikes me as no different than market timing as nobody can predict the future.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

Here are various things I could very well see happening:

1) Limits on size of IRA's and/or Roth IRA's

2) RMD's on Roth IRA's

3) Harsher withdrawal rules on Non-spouse beneficiaries

4) Having Roth IRA distributions counted as part of MAJI for purposes of calculating the tax on SS, as well as counting for other phase-out calculations.

5) Individual states (the ones who don't control the currency and for whom taxes are a MUCH more important source of funds) taxing Roth IRA distributions, decoupling from federal law.

6) Significantly reducing the flexibility with Roth conversions.

7) Disallowing basis liquidity tax/penalty free.

In all of these situations, unless #7 comes as a surprise out of the blue, you'll be able to remove all of your basis from your Roth, if you wish.


Here are less-likely things, but still may happen:

1) Taxing Roth IRA earnings (not basis) on NON-grandfathered new contributions, but only at distribution.

2) Taxing Roth IRA earnings (not basis) for people with incomes above a certain threshhold.


Here's things I REALLY don't think will happen:

1) Taxing Roth IRA basis and earnings.

2) Taxing Roth IRA earnings for EVERYONE.

3) Limiting IRA assets to Treasury bonds or that sort of malarkey.



Keep in mind, if any of these bad things are happening, how many OTHER bad things are also happening that are making the taxation of the assets you picked pretty much a moot point? 

Usually people here are focused, as HB suggests, on aligning our assets to wealth preservation rather than trying to get every last drop of blood out of the turnip. 

Things I've kept & mind and am employing myself:

1) If they tax earnings, you're still getting deferral of the taxes, which is better than being taxed along the way, especially if we're talking bond interest.

2) Any sort of problem short of them passing an overnight bill that limits your Roth liquidity leaves me with the "put option" to take the money out.

3) EE bonds I HIGHLY doubt will be changed, and I'm employing those in my plan as well.

4) I've also got a modest-sized blended permanent life insurance policy that for all its faults, because it carries so much term insurance as part of the blend, allows me a massive amount of flexibility to put "paid up additions" into it with just a 5% load and a 3-3.5% (can't remember) guaranteed RoR on CV.  If Roths are getting attacked, homefully perm policies, at least for loans, are remaining flexible.  The base policy in my contract also allowed me to build a long-term deflation hedge by guaranteeing me 3% (net RoR based on CF, not their stated "dividend interest rate), on not just current contributions, but future contributions into the base policy, all of which are (currently) guaranteed by the MN Guarantee fund. 

A VUL would probably allow you to invest in the PP Mutual Fund or other PP assets, though I haven't tested that theory.

Life Insurance and Annuities, if built correctly, can be swee tax-free growth vehicles, and currently, distributions from LI policies in the form of policy loans do NOT get counted in ANY way shape or form on taxes, unlike "non taxable" roth distributions, which could be an easy change.

5) I understand MR, and how, for all politician's blustering about the deficit, they really don't need to collect taxes anywhere near the degree to which municipalities and states do.  Therefore, politicians are always going to be more focused on pleasing their constituents for re-election than balancing the budget, and last time I checked, the AARP and their cohorts have quite a bit of pull in Washington, and time on their hands to exercise it. :)

6) Really, if the government wanted to, it could make my life supremely miserable compared to what it chooses to.  Most of the time, in my life, I find it to be somewhere between something to actually be in a bit of awe of (NASA, US Military power, city planning for places like Manhattan), and at-worst a clusterf*ck of bureaucracic procedure, with a dash of evil in the dirty cops and Dick Cheney's out there at times, but I'm not black, I respect good cops and fake respect for dick cops, nor am I a Muslim in Iran, so I don't really worry about being subjected to the worst of government (not that I'm not supremely against some of those things as a matter of principle, but as a matter of personal well-being, I'm just not that "worried" that the government is going to f*ck me over in an obvious way).  At least, not in any way that is easily avoidable by worrying about it beyond what I already have.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by Libertarian666 »

TripleB wrote:
WiseOne wrote: Whatever happens with Roths, they can only tax earnings as they're withdrawn, not contributions.  That would be double jeopardy since the contributions were already taxed.
;D Keep on thinking the government can't do something because it wouldn't be fair.  ;)

You don't think the government could spin it such that the uber wealthy with $1M in aggregate retirement accounts have been skirting taxes unfairly, and a 10%+ tax on all retirement account assets above $1M (whether Roth or Tax-Deferred), to pay for social security that's otherwise broke? And by $1M, I mean family income of $1M which is $500k per individual.

It's reasonable for someone to get $500k in retirement accounts over a lifetime of contributions and growth. It's also reasonable for the government to paint someone with "Over $1M in retirement assets using loopholes to keep from paying their fair share while the needy who worked for these fat cat 1%ers can't afford food in retirement?"

Never underestimate the ability of governments to justify theft through new taxes.
They always have a reason (excuse), such as "it's for the children!".
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by MWKXJ »

Life Insurance and Annuities, if built correctly, can be swee tax-free growth vehicles, and currently, distributions from LI policies in the form of policy loans do NOT get counted in ANY way shape or form on taxes, unlike "non taxable" roth distributions, which could be an easy change.
Do you have any links detailing this, Moda?  I haven't looked into this yet.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by barrett »

MWKXJ wrote:
Life Insurance and Annuities, if built correctly, can be swee tax-free growth vehicles, and currently, distributions from LI policies in the form of policy loans do NOT get counted in ANY way shape or form on taxes, unlike "non taxable" roth distributions, which could be an easy change.
Do you have any links detailing this, Moda?  I haven't looked into this yet.
Yes, please provide any helpful links. Also, in your opinion, are the life insurance and annuity ideas you have viable for someone older? I am 56 but I think you are only early 30s, no? My own plan with my life insurance was to just discontinue paying for it once I feel that we have won the FI battle.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

barrett & MWKXJ,

I've been meaning to post on this for some time now.  I'll probably keep the focus on life insurance, as I think there's far more opportunities there, and most people who haven't built up a ton of assets yet have a current need for term life insurance anyway, so you can work a few differnt things together simultaneously on it that make it a pretty sweet financial machine. 

I'll do a separate thread on this soon.  It'll go into how term insurance is designed, and how strategizing that with an eventual or current permanent plan could be a good way to keep some financial options on the table that you wouldn't have with a Roth.

For many here, the "complexity" of it will smell sour, but I've done a lot of research on it and identified the moving pieces (and my theories for when a certain unfavorable change to a policy might occur), and I think it presents a solid value-proposition.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by Lowe »

This is a good thread.  I hope you post your life insurance plans somewhere, moda.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

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MangoMan wrote: Scott Burns has LOTS of articles on Life Insurance and Annuities both on his website assetbuilder.com. The tl;dr version is buy only term life insurance and only buy single premium immediate annuities directly from the insurance company.  All other types of insurance and annuities exist for the sole pupose of enriching the salesman who talked you into it. There are tons of life insurance quote comparison sites, and the go-to for SPIAs is immediateannuities.com.

SPIAs are useful for people who don't have a defined benefit pension and want a guaranteed stream of income for life. You give up control of a chunk of money to the insurance company forever in exchange for monthly income until you [or you and your spouse] die.
Or until the insurance company goes belly up.  ;)

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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

pug,

I'm going to have to disagree with Scott on a couple things:

1) While I am a huge fan of term life life insurance (done right, might just be $ for $ my favorite financial product out there), I think you'll see that hating all permanent insurance plans is a flawed position to take.  More on that when I put together a post on it.

2) SPIAs pay massive commissions, from what I've heard.  10%-15% of the amount put into it, if memory serves.  What's more, the way I see it, a SPIA is essentially the mirror image of a permanent life insurance policy.  One pays out a guaranteed income until you die for a lump sum investment. The other charges you a premium while you're alive for a guaranteed lump-sum benefit when you're dead.  With the exception of there being no mirror image to term life insurance in the annuity world, I'm surprised someone would advocate one while hating the other... especially with all the little strategic benefits that perm policies have, IMO, that SPIAs don't have.


I know I'm being uninformative here.  It's just best that I do this in a long mega-post.
Last edited by moda0306 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

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moda0306 wrote: I know I'm being uninformative here.  It's just best that I do this in a long mega-post.
I've been waiting for this for some time... years?  Quit with the menial chores and more with the writing! ;D

P.S. I'm interested in the permament whole life insurance with paid up addition riders angle, of course, not term.  Need to see some hard numbers, especially minimums.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

Tonight I'll drop a post on life insurance.  I have a buddy in the industry who I've essentially paid in beers to let me play with his illustration system.

I think you'll be surprised at some of the facts around setting up your term insurance correctly, as well.  As a teaser, I'll just let you know that if all I do is pay the premium in my top-health-class term insurance policy and die at my life expectancy of 84, my heir will get a 6.5% IRR on my cash flows, tax-free. This isn't the typical level-term people buy, either.  I'll get into all this later. 
Last edited by moda0306 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by barrett »

moda0306 wrote: Tonight I'll drop a post on life insurance.
Great, but in the meantime, I've got this sharp pain in my abdomen. You act as if whatever it is you do for a living is more important than.... Ach! I can't go on. Pretty sure that I am checking out within the next hour or two. Sure would have been handy to have my financial house in order! ;D
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

MangoMan wrote:
moda0306 wrote: pug,

I'm going to have to disagree with Scott on a couple things:

1) While I am a huge fan of term life life insurance (done right, might just be $ for $ my favorite financial product out there), I think you'll see that hating all permanent insurance plans is a flawed position to take.  More on that when I put together a post on it.

2) SPIAs pay massive commissions, from what I've heard.  10%-15% of the amount put into it, if memory serves.  What's more, the way I see it, a SPIA is essentially the mirror image of a permanent life insurance policy.  One pays out a guaranteed income until you die for a lump sum investment. The other charges you a premium while you're alive for a guaranteed lump-sum benefit when you're dead.  With the exception of there being no mirror image to term life insurance in the annuity world, I'm surprised someone would advocate one while hating the other... especially with all the little strategic benefits that perm policies have, IMO, that SPIAs don't have.


I know I'm being uninformative here.  It's just best that I do this in a long mega-post.
AFAIK, there is no commission to speak of if you purchase direct.

What good is a lump sum benefit at death if you need a stream of income while alive? 
At any given point, most people need BOTH a stream of income while alive, AND their family needs a lump sum at death.

The way to secure that death benefit at the lowest curent cash-flow commitment IS term life insurance.  You are correct.  This is why I'm such a big fan of it.  Planned correctly, term insurance is awesome, IMO.

But if you are accumulating wealth with some of that cash-flow you are earning in the early years, it begs the question, if you can accumulate wealth inside of an insurance policy, is there away of doing so that is an IMPROVEMENT over the alternative of buying term and investing the difference.

As applied by 95% of people, I'd say probably not.  I'll explain why I like to do it the way I do it with some of my money.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

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moda0306
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by moda0306 »

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/va ... 12112/#new


Get your reading glasses out, folks.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
WiseOne
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by WiseOne »

This is rather reassuring...

http://www.rothira.com/blog/will-roth-i ... the-future

Some good arguments here that make it easier to put in my Roth contribution for the year.  Cliff notes version:  Roth IRAs exist for other purposes than funding retirement, they are small potatoes compared to 401Ks and thus less of a target, and the tax code apparently makes it difficult for new laws not to grandfather in existing accounts/contributions.
barrett
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by barrett »

WiseOne wrote: Some good arguments here that make it easier to put in my Roth contribution for the year.
Yeah, I am going to go ahead and contribute this year as well. My wife and I are both self employed and have the Solo Roth 401(k) option as well which really lets a self-employed worker sock away a lot of cash. Gotta take advantage of every positive option! I do agree with TripleB though that one should look out for the warning signs that tax treatment on Roth accounts might change in the future.
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MachineGhost
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by MachineGhost »

WiseOne wrote: Some good arguments here that make it easier to put in my Roth contribution for the year.  Cliff notes version:  Roth IRAs exist for other purposes than funding retirement, they are small potatoes compared to 401Ks and thus less of a target, and the tax code apparently makes it difficult for new laws not to grandfather in existing accounts/contributions.
Some of that is wishful thinking and not factual based on Roth legislative history, but I think worrying about what the government will do in the future is sort of pointless.  You know you will be taxed and attacked for being "rich" at some point, no matter what.  Just prepare for it ahead of time.

I can't even use any tax sheltered accounts, so y'all better stop whining and contribute your maximum! ;)
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Planning For Future Roth Tax Changes

Post by clacy »

I would say floating this idea would be very devastating at this point. Seriously pushing it would be political suicide for any party (we all know which one would be interested in taxing retirement accounts). The backlash would be immense.

20 years from now, anything is possible of course, but it would basically require the Dems to control the Presidency, Senate and House, for this to even be discussed.
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