What pit bull activism says about our culture

[Mountaineer]

...wouldn't those irresponsible Pit Bull owners just select a new, powerful breed of dog to ruin and unleash on the public?

So to speak

Speaking of speaking:  http://www.mtv.com/artists/pitbull/music-videos/

Unleashed upon us .... ugh!  I think I prefer the canine variety. 

... Mountaineer

[Coffee]

Has there really never been a controlled study done on the territorial nature of pitts?  I find it hard to believe that there's not some decent data on this.  I'm not calling anyone a liar... just weird to me that there hasn't been something done.

Too many factors. You could NEVER have a controlled, scientific study because you would have to control for certain bloodlines-- and of what breed? The APBT? The Staffordshire Terrier? The American Bulldog? 

Then you'd have to control fro nature vs. nurture.

And on top of that-- and I mean no disrespect to you Moda, since you're obviously not a professional dog man-- it's likely that the "scientists" running the study wouldn't be, either.  You're talking about TERRITORIAL AGGRESSION, when almost none of the "pit bull" media sensational stories are TERRITORIAL AGGRESSION.  They're usually either PREY AGGRESSION or DEFENSIVE AGGRESSION.  * Which is different from defense of handler.

Without knowing the difference, and what to really look at, would be comparable to classifying everybody who commits a killing with everybody who commits a murder.  And for those who commit murder-- was it premeditated or a crime of passion?  I'm not even sure you could do a scientific study on such behavior-- and we're talking about the human animal that can talk and explain things.

Now take it one step farther and try doing a study on an animal ("pit bulls"?) that can't talk?  Good luck.

[moda0306]

Coffee,

I certainly don't know as much as you do about dogs, but I'd ask you this question... and try to keep in mind that this does NOT imply a policy preference, but simply this question in a vacuum.

Based on your limited experience, if you took 1,000 golden retriever pups, and 1,000 pitt bull pups (let's say APBT) and randomly gave them out to a mix of owners that was pre-organized by family type, race, socio-economic status, etc, and had to put your retirement savings on which group of dogs would have the higher incidences of bites yielding in serious damage (or if you prefer, death, to keep things objective), what would you put your money on?

I realize there's sub-complications here, but if these are all rearranging evidence-deck-chairs on the aggression-Titanic than I think you could still come up with at least some loose conclusions that families can use to decide on less risky breeds.

One more question: Is there anything uniquly good about pitt bulls that don't exist in other big dog breeds?  It seems like all-risk no-reward to me.

[Coffee]

You need to qualify it more.  Your question/suggested comparison is far too broad. What type of aggression?

Yes, it's true: The pit bull is an extreme breed.  It's not for everyone.  But neither are Ferraris, AK47s, marijuana, monster trucks, base jumping, etc...

For your comparison: I would say that the apdt has no more aggression issues than any other extreme breed-- EXCEPT in the area of dog-on-dog aggression. 

Do the comparison for handler (owner) aggression (owner getting bit) with either an Akita or a Chow Chow vs. a pit bull: I'd bet on the pit bull being the safer dog.

Do the comparison for territorial aggression (property): with a Rottweiler vs. a pit bull: You're going to be more likely bit by the Rottweiler, guaranteed.

Do the comparison for accross the board (all types) of aggression: Belgian Malinois or German Shepherd dog vs. pit bull: About equal, in my book.  The GSDs in particular are getting very, very popular again and we're seeing a ton of aggression problems. Way more than we are with pit bulls.

Primarily it's dog on dog aggression with the pit bulls.  I think what happens a lot of the time is that some dumb ass lets his dog get out of the yard (read: Doesn't confine the animal safely) -- and then the dog gets out and attacks a dog who's being walked through the neighborhood.  The dog (pit bull) is in the middle of what we term, "fight drive" -- at that point, his eyes are glazed over.  The owner, trying to rescue his own dog, sticks his hand in the middle and gets bit.

The "pit bull" breeds are amazing dogs.  They're easy to train, they're easy to live with.  They have an easy coat.  And they are super-athletic.  You can do ALMOST any dog sport with a good apdt, from weight pull to Schutzhund to Mondio ring to Dock Dogs, to agility.  These dogs can do almost anything.  They are also one of the few 50-60 lb. breeds that can do competent personal protection work.  Which, if you're living in an apartment, can be a big benefit.

Personally, I won't own another pit bull-type dog.  Not because they're bad dogs, but because I'm tired of the "doggy racism" bullshit I have to put up with.  It's all border collies for me, from here on out.  (I think.  I did have an incredible Doberman specimen walk through the door yesterday, and if she had given me the dog... I would have taken him!).  But the biggest problem with the pit bull is that you can have somebody with a Labrador all-out attack you and your dog.  But if your dog is a "pit bull" ... it's still your fault, facts be damned.

[Pointedstick]

Primarily it's dog on dog aggression with the pit bulls.  I think what happens a lot of the time is that some dumb ass lets his dog get out of the yard (read: Doesn't confine the animal safely) -- and then the dog gets out and attacks a dog who's being walked through the neighborhood.  The dog (pit bull) is in the middle of what we term, "fight drive" -- at that point, his eyes are glazed over.  The owner, trying to rescue his own dog, sticks his hand in the middle and gets bit.

This exact situation almost happened to me a few months ago. I was out walking my Australian cattle dog mix and a neighbor's pit bull puppy crawled under a fence and bounded toward us. I was able to intimidate it into stopping cold, and at that point, it started displaying classic friendly puppy behavior and I just kind of let it play with my dog while I led it back home to the very sheepish owners. I remember that the two things that immediately struck me were: 1) damn, that is an athletic dog. I hope it isn't violent. and 2) damn, that is a friendly dog. I bet it would be a lot of fun to play with in a different context.

[Austen Heller]

This has been an interesting conversation.  I have never owned a dog, but I would like to someday.  It is great to get coffee's perspective, since he has so much experience with dog training.  Since coffee recommended the Border Collie, I will have to do more research on this breed.  I have heard they are one of smartest dogs out there, but this can be double-edged sword if it makes them extra-mischievous.  Another breed that seems interesting is the Greyhound.  There is a racetrack nearby, and a lot of places in my town take in the retired racers to save them.  I have heard that they are pretty mellow dogs, sleeping all day and not getting into trouble.  My neighbor adopted an ex-racer, seemed like a great dog,  not too rambunctious with a very short coat that was easy to care for.

[Xan]

Just weighing in on breeds: I can't endorse my Samoyeds enough!

[Coffee]

I don't recommend a border collie. 

Sure, it's a great breed for a professional dog trainer or a sheep rancher.  But it's a terrible breed for a regular dog owner.  They're too high energy and intense.

Definitely go with the Greyhound.  They are super-mellow.  Easy coat... just an all around very good pet.  If you're adopting a racing GH, make sure they let you take the dog to a high foot traffic area to make sure the one you're getting is socal and not timid around strangers.  I've seen some really good ones and I've seen some real basket cases.  But if you choose intelligently... I think the greyhound is a wise choice.