Figuring Out Religion

[barrett]

True, modeling and endorsing are both fair words for my approach. I try not to dictate though. In a household as open as ours, our daughter is bound to find out what we believe about all kinds of things. Incidentally, she lived the first five years of her life with her Buddhist grandmother in China so she has had other influences. And she will doubtlessly - at least I hope this is the case - have others in college and beyond. My beliefs are only part of what she gets... obviously a big part, but just one influence.

[Xan]

I guess my point is that "not dictating" is as strong an endorsement of your philosophy as "dictating" is for people whose philosophy is more concrete.

[moda0306]

4) Religion - I believe 99% of kids (32% of statistics are made up on the spot) who are not indoctrinated by their parents, churches, mosques, etc. will choose to lead decent, productive lives if we teach them about right and wrong behavior (again, I am no paragon but at least I have some life experience). My guess is that they will also choose to be agnostic. That is at least the pattern I see among young people. If they find at some point that is not sufficient, then they should be free to seek whatever truths they please.

As long as you realize that you're indoctrinating her with everything you believe, exactly the way religious people do.  You're modeling and endorsing the no-heaven, no-hell, make-your-own-way, be-a-good-person religion, just in the same way that a religious parent would model and endorse their own worldview.

I think there's a difference between an actual belief in moral relativism, and an acknowledgement of whether we should actually indoctrinate our kids with something we have no way of knowing.

Moral relativism is actually quite unpopular as a moral framework. However, the belief that one should not try to force their views onto someone else (at least in most cases) is quite popular.  Establishing a morality doesn't necessarily establishing a model of how to spread or enforce it.  It doesn't mean that someone's son or daughter will choose the correct path, but in the absence of me being able to show them deductively or even inductively that I have, in fact, chosen the right path for myself, I probably should maintain a certain amount of humility for the path they choose.  Even if I deeply believe that it's not 100% correct.

So there is a difference.  Saying that someone has to choose their own path doesn't meant that it will necessarily be right... it means that if I have no way of showing her why MY path is the right one, who am I to dictate this stuff?

Stating that I don't KNOW the answer vs stating that whatever YOU choose IS the right answer are two different things.  There is only one right answer, but in the absence of solid logical or empirical evidence behind my guess as to what is "truth," who am I to dictate to someone else what the "truth" actually is?  Perhaps it's simply my job to instill in my kid a preference for discovering truth, rather than bombarding them with the "truths" I've subjectively determined to be correct.


I mean your arguments are no different than those of people who raise their children Catholic or Muslim or Hundu.  You, like them, are correct in that there is really only one TRUTH... but also like them, you are unable to put together an adequate logical or empirical case for your assertions.  I don't think resting perhaps the most important topic of all (morality) into the realm of the worst kind of thinking (accepting unproven assertions based on authority sources and cultural familiarity) is a really bad way to get people started through life.... and I'd imagine you'd feel the same way if the message being promoted by the parents was one that didn't include Jesus as being the son of God.

[Mountaineer]

I am hesitant to jump into this any more than I already have, but it seems that barrett and moda both have an underlying unconscious assumption that their progeny are not wise enough to discount what their parents have told them or not told them (indoctrinated them with the parent's worldview).  I know that is probably not what you meant.  But look at the couple of billion Christians in the world - there must be somewhat "good enough" evidence for them to remain in their parents' religion, or have the previously unbelieving be attracted to the faith, because many of them have likely been exposed to other worldviews - at least I was.  I don't think I did a very good job explaining that ... sorry.

... Mountaineer

[barrett]

Or it could just be the result of effective brainwashing...

Or just going through the motions so as not to upset friends and family. When I ask people about their religious faith the answers are not always indicative of a strong faith in God. My dad wanted me and my sister to go to church when we were kids. I stopped when I was 14 (I would say at about the age that I was able to think for myself). My sister lost interest at about 18. My dad kept going to church for the social interaction (or, in his later years, to catch up on sleep). I questioned him about it when he was 75 and he wasn't all that convinced that there was a God. He liked the routine... kind of like a morning cup of coffee.

[Pointedstick]

Or just going through the motions so as not to upset friends and family. When I ask people about their religious faith the answers are not always indicative of a strong faith in God. My dad wanted me and my sister to go to church when we were kids. I stopped when I was 14 (I would say at about the age that I was able to think for myself). My sister lost interest at about 18. My dad kept going to church for the social interaction (or, in his later years, to catch up on sleep). I questioned him about it when he was 75 and he wasn't all that convinced that there was a God. He liked the routine... kind of like a morning cup of coffee.

Great story. I had the same kind of experience with my tepidly Jewish mother. Many people I know say similar things. I actually think the number of truly faithful people--as defined by Mountaineer a couple of pages back-- is very small. Most religious people I know are mostly in it for social reasons, and some are convinced that they've actually seen an angel or talked to God or something. Mountaineer is actually the first person I've ever talked to who had absolute faith in God without any perceived personal experiences to validate it.

[Mountaineer]

Sadly, God knows our rebellious hearts.  Holy Scripture reinforces over and over the points made by barrett and pointed stick about the insincere and those who ignore the gift.  One example is below.

... Mountaineer

The Parable of the Wedding Feast
Matthew, Chapter 22

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”?’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”?

[Pointedstick]

So, most of humanity is going to Hell, then? Including most people who call themselves Christians?

[Mountaineer]

Why does Christianity need missionaries? Wouldn't the proselytized just come to know Jesus naturally? Ohhh, of course not, because they've never heard of him until the missionaries come into the bush to tell them about it. So if the missionaries don't come, these people are just condemned to an eternity in hell?

Mountaineer,
I never got an answer to this question...

Pugchief,

Sorry, earlier I did not perceive you were seriously asking.  Here are pertinent Scripture passages that address your question.

... Mountaineer

Romans 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Judgment and the Law
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Romans 10 English Standard Version (ESV)
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Message of Salvation to All
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”? (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”? (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”? 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”?
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”? 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”? 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.  18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”?
19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”?
20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”?
21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”?

[Mountaineer]

So, most of humanity is going to Hell, then? Including most people who call themselves Christians?

I do not pretend to understand the mind of God, that is what He has chosen NOT to reveal to us in Holy Scripture.  However, Scripture does state over and over the vast number of people who heard the promises of God and repeatedly refused the gift are not going to have a favorable judgement.  Scripture also states God wants everyone to be saved, so there is great hope for those who do believe the promises.  For example:

John 3:16 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6 English Standard Version (ESV)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Those verses are either really good news, or really bad news - depends on whether you believe the promises.

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

So, yes, then. It may be incomprehensible to us, but the scriptures seem to make it pretty clear that most humans are going to Hell when they die, no?

[Mountaineer]

So, yes, then. It may be incomprehensible to us, but the scriptures seem to make it pretty clear that most humans are going to Hell when they die, no?

I am not saying most people are going to hell - That is God's decision and it is not up to me to say who is going or who is not.  God has said what is required to go to heaven and His wish is for all to be saved (see previously quoted passages from John immediately above.)

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

I'm not sure I understand why you're splitting hairs over this. The information in the sources you've presented seems to indicate very clearly that the vast majority of humans--past, present, and possibly future--will not meet the qualifications that they say God has set for entry into Heaven. The necessary consequence is that they are instead going to Hell. Am I wrong? If not, why not admit it?

[Mountaineer]

I'm not sure I understand why you're splitting hairs over this. The information in the sources you've presented seems to indicate very clearly that the vast majority of humans--past, present, and possibly future--will not meet the qualifications that they say God has set for entry into Heaven. The necessary consequence is that they are instead going to Hell. Am I wrong?

 

That is the way I read the Scriptures, but, as I said, it is not up to me.  God tells us all we need for salvation, not all we want to know. 

If not, why not admit it?

Because it does not matter what I think about your question - only God.

... Mountaineer

[iwealth]

Because it does not matter what I think about your question - only God.

... Mountaineer

You've had no problem answering hundreds of other questions over the 90+ pages of this thread.

[invst65]

So, yes, then. It may be incomprehensible to us, but the scriptures seem to make it pretty clear that most humans are going to Hell when they die, no?

I have to stand up for "the scriptures" here, even though I don't believe, as Mountaineer apparently does, that the Bible is the "Word of God".

I don't know what Mountaineer has been telling you about the Christian doctrine of Hell in this long thread but let me assure you that the scriptures do not make this clear at all and I am confident I have read and studied them much longer than he has.

The majority of scripture is the Old Testament and you can look all you want but you wont find the doctrine there. Even if you take the story of Adam and Eve literally, God said that on the day they ate the forbidden fruit they would surely die. It did not say they would spend eternity in a place of torment. That is a Christian "add-on".

Even in the New Testament there is no clear statement of this doctrine. I have heard it said that Jesus spoke often of Hell but if you read carefully all of Jesus' supposed quotes about hell you will find that most of them are metaphoric and I don't know how you can build such a doctrine from them. Likewise in the apostolic writings of Paul, et al. Nowhere can you find a clear statement of the Christian doctrine.

[Pointedstick]

So, yes, then. It may be incomprehensible to us, but the scriptures seem to make it pretty clear that most humans are going to Hell when they die, no?

I have to stand up for "the scriptures" here, even though I don't believe, as Mountaineer apparently does, that the Bible is the "Word of God".

I don't know what Mountaineer has been telling you about the Christian doctrine of Hell in this long thread but let me assure you that the scriptures do not make this clear at all and I am confident I have read and studied them much longer than he has.

The majority of scripture is the Old Testament and you can look all you want but you wont find the doctrine there. Even if you take the story of Adam and Eve literally, God said that on the day they ate the forbidden fruit they would surely die. It did not say they would spend eternity in a place of torment. That is a Christian "add-on".

Even in the New Testament there is no clear statement of this doctrine. I have heard it said that Jesus spoke often of Hell but if you read carefully all of Jesus' supposed quotes about hell you will find that most of them are metaphoric and I don't know how you can build such a doctrine from them. Likewise in the apostolic writings of Paul, et al. Nowhere can you find a clear statement of the Christian doctrine.

Sounds like you might be going to Hell, invst65.

I mean, welcome to the forum!

[invst65]

Sounds like you might be going to Hell, invst65.
I mean, welcome to the forum!

Hell is the only power that Christianity has today.

[Pointedstick]

You doing okay lately, Desert? You've seemed rather grim recently.

[Mountaineer]

You doing okay lately, Desert? You've seemed rather grim recently.

Yeah, just fine by my standards; I was born grim, I think. 

A few issues have affected me more than usual lately, and both have been discussed recently on the forum: abortion and Ferguson.  Human brokenness bothers me.  The events I see aren't unexpected, but somehow they're still very disappointing.  I think there is a lot more the church can and should be doing.  The church is capable of things a government can never be, and I think it's time for a lot more thoughtful action and a lot less of what I've been spending my life energy on.

Desert my friend,

The best possible thing the church (in the narrow sense) can do is to preach/teach the Word faithfully and administer the Sacraments rightly so more will hear, believe and be saved; the best thing the church (in the broadest sense) can do is to continue to believe the promises of Jesus and not be tempted by Satan to doubt or think that we are in charge of fixing things - Satan is the master of lies.  Scripture says the physical world and its inhabitants will become increasingly "broken" as the end times draw nearer.  What we see going on in the behavior of people and world events are merely another prophesy coming true.

Ignore the world's craziness and our disappointment for a few minutes and reread Revelation 21 and 22.  Come Lord Jesus, it will be wonderful!

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,
I never got an answer to this question...

Pugchief,

Sorry, earlier I did not perceive you were seriously asking.  Here are pertinent Scripture passages that address your question.

... Mountaineer

Romans 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Judgment and the Law
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Romans 10 English Standard Version (ESV)
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Message of Salvation to All
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”? (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”? (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”? 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”?
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”? 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”? 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.  18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
    and their words to the ends of the world.”?
19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
    with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”?
20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
    I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”?
21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”?

Good thing that was in English, bc I didn't understand any of it. Let's try this: Instead of quoting the bible, why don't you attempt to answer the question in your own words. I don't care what the LCMS has to say on the matter, nor the bible. I want YOU to explain it in your own words.

Here is my explanation:

If you do not understand or care about the LCMS or the Bible, why would you possibly want to hear what a sinner like me has to say on the matter (other than the entertainment value you might enjoy)?  I certainly did not write the words of Scripture and am unable to predict the future any more than you can.  If God has not chosen you yet, and you refuse to trust in his promises or hear His Word, there is little I can say that would soften your heart.  If you are truly interested in learning about the promises of Jesus, go to where it is preached and listen.  If you just want to try to lead others to doubt (misery loves company), "keep on keeping on" and listen to Satan's lies instead of God's truth.  Harsh, I know, but true.  Ultimately, you have to play the cards you are dealt and hope you have the ability to bluff the other players out of winning hands or depend on luck - OR, know you have already the winning hand and have won the yet not over game, but that requires faith in the promises of the one who dealt the cards and whispered in your ear it will all be good.  The choice is yours - or is it?  You are in charge of your destiny - or are you?  There is no hell - or is there?  There is no heaven - or is there?  What do I want to take my chances on - truth or lies?  Who was resurrected from the dead - you or Jesus?  Why do some have faith and not others?  Only God knows.  Peace.

... Mountaineer

[barrett]

Mountaineer, Don't know if I speak for the majority of non-believers, but I personally also do not believe in Satan. The existence of Satan or God seems equally unlikely to me.

if you give up on, or don't believe in, the anthropomorphized big sky daddy version of god, then the round and round arguments for his existence or lack of existence and the accompanying problem of him being "love" and sending us all to hell vanish.. there is plenty of room for reason and logic and spiritual understanding to coexist when you get away from a ego driven, dualistic (separate from), parent vs child type view of what god is like...

[Mountaineer]

To Pug, barrett, l8,

What then is it you wish to discuss, and moreso - why?

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

To Pug, barrett, l8,

What then is it you wish to discuss, and moreso - why?

... Mountaineer

Do you think, absent the presence of missionaries, that those being proselytized would otherwise come to 'know Jesus' on their own? Why or why not? If the answer is no, do you think they will spend eternity in hell just because they did not have the 'luck' to have someone show them the light? Again, please respond in your own words without quoting the bible. I am okay with a sinner's opinion.

1st question:  Who then, in the absence of missionaries, is doing the informing them about Jesus?  I'm not sure I completely get the drift of your question.

2nd question: I honestly do not know, but my opinion would be no because (most) everyone "knows" there is something that created all this existence we are part of that is bigger than us and it is not random chance that did it - i.e. there is  "natural" evidence there is a God.  For those who have heard the "word" and rejected it, I think they are going to hell.

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

2nd question: I honestly do not know, but my opinion would be no because (most) everyone "knows" there is something that created all this existence we are part of that is bigger than us and it is not random chance that did it - i.e. there is  "natural" evidence there is a God.  For those who have heard the "word" and rejected it, I think they are going to hell.

... Mountaineer

Doesn't that interpretation imply that the absolute worst thing that could happen to such people would be a visit by missionaries, thereby granting them a chance to hear the word and reject it? Seems like you're saying that ignorance is bliss, no?