Obama Prepares To Distribute 34 Million Green Cards To Illegals

[Jan Van]

I thought I explained in my previous post what I thought would be the problem with it. It's a slap in the face to law-abiding citizens. Do you not think there is anything problematic about that or do you think law-abiding citizens should get slapped in the face like Obama does?

No. I'm one of those law abiding citizens and I don't feel slapped in any way. Feels more like whining to me. "Boohooohooooo, I had to go through all that trouble to get my green card and then my citizenship, I don't want it to be that easy for others, boohoohoooo. I feel bitch-slapped!  And now teh Gay can get married so my marriage isn't worth anything anymore either! Boohoohoooo!!"

[Jan Van]

Its not a question of easy, the green card process should be fixed and made sane at the same time as the borders are fixed. The problem is they are law breakers and we don't know who they are. This is probably not the best analogy in the world, but if you had a room for rent in your house and while were going through a process of carefully vetting and selecting potential roommates, a burglar broke in and set up camp in your spare room, would you grant them amnesty and let them stay? Would you tell the roommate you vetted, selected and who payed to be there, that complaining about the burglar in his room sounded like whining?

I can agree with that. Obviously there's something about the whole process that's not sane. We seem to need lots of these people to do work for us we either don't want to do or aren't strong enough to do. So it should be easier for them to come here and work, if not permanent then at least on temporary work visas that are easier to obtain.

[Benko]

Your theorem about Barack Obama....

my theorem about Barack Obama to understand him.
1.The world will be more safe if the United States is less safe.
2.The world will be more stable if the United States is less stable.
3.Act against one and two only when polling demands it and only then in a way that does not actually undermine one and two.

...are the assertions laid out in your theorem's point 1 and 2 REALLY so different from this...

Premise (as stated by Benko): Obama thinks that making the U.S. unsafe and unstable will increase the stability and safety of the world.

Sorry that I didn't quote you, verbatim.  I figured I was laying out about with about 99.9% functional accuracy what you were trying to say.


I don't see how I was really  misquoting you... and if I was, it certainly wasn't to the level of a "lie" in doing so... perhaps I simply missed a material aspect of your theorem in point 1 and 2 that isn't very obvious.

LESS SAFE/STABLE DOES NOT EQUAL UNSAFE/STABLE.  This is not an academic distinction. Unsafe is 0% (or 0-20%) safe.  Taking the safety and stability down by  e.g. 20% (from whatever number you consider it now) and people start being more concerned about our own issues and far less willing to meddle overseas.  For example Ebola right now. 

One does not need to turn the US into a 3rd world country to decrease it's influence. 

So yes, unsafe/stable is totally misrepresenting what I was saying.  It is factually way off.  I'll withdraw the lie choice of words, since I reserve that for people who conscioiusly misrepresent things and you best I can tell are viewing this way too black and white.

[Benko]

So what exactly would be the problem if those 34M people became green card holders?

Because culture matters and it's not all relative.

"Because culture matters"
And the goal of many is destruction of (what is left of) our culture.

[Jan Van]

"Because culture matters"
And the goal of many is destruction of (what is left of) our culture.

What is that culture exactly? I always thought part of it was the assimilation of immigrants to the United States?

exactly assimilation... adopting the language, values and the (mostly) unique american understanding of liberty freedom and rights , the people who break the law with their first step on american soil, who have no interest in learning the language, don't share our values, who don't care about liberty freedom or rights or wish to impose some home country understanding on the US, are not part of the melting pot or our culture...

nobody cares (or should care) if people want to preserve parts of their heritage upon (legal) arrival, dress, food, language spoken at home or in the immigrant community and so on, but respect for the law and adopting the above mentioned american culture is important..

[Benko]

"Because culture matters"
And the goal of many is destruction of (what is left of) our culture.

What is that culture exactly? I always thought part of it was the assimilation of immigrants to the United States?

1.  What is it that you do not understand about the difference between legal immigration and opening the borders to anyone including murders, kidnappers and sex offenders?

      The Obama Administration lied last year when they informed Congress and the public that
        the 2,200 people that the Administration released from incarceration to save money had only minor criminal records.
          USA TODAY, gaining the data from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) through the Freedom of information Act, reports   
          that some of the illegal immigrants had been charged with kidnapping, sexual assault, drug trafficking, and homicide.
        http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... Immigrants

2.  YOu are from Holland/netherlands right?  Does your country allow an infinite number of people to enter the country without permission?  Does any country on the planet?  If not, why not?

3.  Back to your question: culture.  ASSIMILATION of immigrants has made many contributions to our culture and should continue to do so.

[Jan Van]

1.  What is it that you do not understand about the difference between legal immigration and opening the borders to anyone including murders, kidnappers and sex offenders?

      The Obama Administration lied last year when they informed Congress and the public that
        the 2,200 people that the Administration released from incarceration to save money had only minor criminal records.
          USA TODAY, gaining the data from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) through the Freedom of information Act, reports   
          that some of the illegal immigrants had been charged with kidnapping, sexual assault, drug trafficking, and homicide.
        http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... Immigrants

That difference seems clear to me. I'm assuming that's where FY 2013 ICE Immigration Removals come into play.

2.  YOu are from Holland/netherlands right?  Does your country allow an infinite number of people to enter the country without permission?  Does any country on the planet?  If not, why not?

Yes. No. Don't know. N/A.

3.  Back to your question: culture.  ASSIMILATION of immigrants has made many contributions to our culture and should continue to do so.

Agree.

[moda0306]

Your theorem about Barack Obama....

my theorem about Barack Obama to understand him.
1.The world will be more safe if the United States is less safe.
2.The world will be more stable if the United States is less stable.
3.Act against one and two only when polling demands it and only then in a way that does not actually undermine one and two.

...are the assertions laid out in your theorem's point 1 and 2 REALLY so different from this...

Premise (as stated by Benko): Obama thinks that making the U.S. unsafe and unstable will increase the stability and safety of the world.

Sorry that I didn't quote you, verbatim.  I figured I was laying out about with about 99.9% functional accuracy what you were trying to say.


I don't see how I was really  misquoting you... and if I was, it certainly wasn't to the level of a "lie" in doing so... perhaps I simply missed a material aspect of your theorem in point 1 and 2 that isn't very obvious.

LESS SAFE/STABLE DOES NOT EQUAL UNSAFE/STABLE.  This is not an academic distinction. Unsafe is 0% (or 0-20%) safe.  Taking the safety and stability down by  e.g. 20% (from whatever number you consider it now) and people start being more concerned about our own issues and far less willing to meddle overseas.  For example Ebola right now. 

One does not need to turn the US into a 3rd world country to decrease it's influence. 

So yes, unsafe/stable is totally misrepresenting what I was saying.  It is factually way off.  I'll withdraw the lie choice of words, since I reserve that for people who conscioiusly misrepresent things and you best I can tell are viewing this way too black and white.

Unsafe/unstable does not indicate zero safety and zero stability.  Just that the stability/safety levels are in a very undesirable spot.  Something you really seem to think with all your conservative ranting. So this isn't about the extremes of anarchism.

Like I said, this works marginally as well.  Socialists believe that increasing government control will make a more safe and stable country. Obama has advanced a socialist agenda.  Therefore your argument fails.

This is like arguing that Obama is simultaneously a Muslim and a black liberation Christian.  You can't be both.

[Benko]

"Unsafe/unstable does not indicate zero safety and zero stability.  Just that the stability/safety levels are in a very undesirable spot."

Any way you slice it, this is still not what I said (or meant despite what you beleive).  You do not have to get down to: 

"stability/safety levels are in a very undesirable spot"

To have the desired effect.  This is not rocket science. 

[moda0306]

Benko,

Alright... Let's leave the semantics aside, shall we? 

Why would a socialist engage in activities that he believes will have marginal benefits to the safety and stability of a country if he desires to make it marginally less stable and safe?

[Mountaineer]

Benko,

Alright... Let's leave the semantics aside, shall we? 

Why would a socialist engage in activities that he believes will have marginal benefits to the safety and stability of a country if he desires to make it marginally less stable and safe?

Perhaps the issue is that labeling people, although quite entertaining, is not really very illustrative of what a person is or believes.  For example, I do not vote with a "one size fits all" mentality, nor to I presume to be liberal on every issue, conservative on every issue, libertarian on every issue, a socialist on every issue, etc.  And for another example of duality paradox, from a Lutheran religious perspective I'm simultaneously a saint and sinner - "Simul iustus et peccator".   

On your other point, of course dear leader could simultaneously be a follower of Islam and Christianity ... he would not have to pull a voter God ID card to prove anything.  And, besides, it clearly says on his widely disseminated birth certificate what his religion is. 

... Mountaineer

[dragoncar]

I thought I explained in my previous post what I thought would be the problem with it. It's a slap in the face to law-abiding citizens. Do you not think there is anything problematic about that or do you think law-abiding citizens should get slapped in the face like Obama does?

No. I'm one of those law abiding citizens and I don't feel slapped in any way. Feels more like whining to me. "Boohooohooooo, I had to go through all that trouble to get my green card and then my citizenship, I don't want it to be that easy for others, boohoohoooo. I feel bitch-slapped!  And now teh Gay can get married so my marriage isn't worth anything anymore either! Boohoohoooo!!"

OK, I'm not as opposed to increased immigration as many in this thread.  But I agree it's somewhat a slap in the face for those who jumped through many hoops.  How would you feel if your university started giving out degrees to everyone who applied?

[Jan Van]

OK, I'm not as opposed to increased immigration as many in this thread.  But I agree it's somewhat a slap in the face for those who jumped through many hoops.  How would you feel if your university started giving out degrees to everyone who applied?

I'm an immigrant myself who went through the visa => green card => citizenship hoops thang...

One time returning from NL, one of the immigration officers (the posters say, "the face of the country") asked me what kind of work I did and followed that up with the remark "can't an American do that job?". 
Since I'd seen them walk people back to the plane to be removed from the country, I kept any wise-crack remarks to myself...

[pp4me3]

So it should be easier for them to come here and work, if not permanent then at least on temporary work visas that are easier to obtain.

Good idea. If we gave all the illegal Mexicans temporary work visas when they came across the border we wouldn't be having this problem. They would all go home after the Visa expired.